Polyrhythm help

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Auxiliaryoctopus
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Polyrhythm help

Post by Auxiliaryoctopus » Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:57 pm

My goal is to set up polyrhythmic sequences with two separate oscillators. I want these sequences to be melodic. I want to be able to choose the specific notes of each sequence. What would I need to be able to do this, (aside from the synth voices themselves)? Would just one Yarns be able to do this? Would I need two?

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ETP
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Post by ETP » Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:10 pm

what do you have allready?

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Dcramer
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Post by Dcramer » Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:16 pm

Check out the Z8000.
It has 16 knobs but can spit out 10 sequences all separately clocked :tu:

Auxiliaryoctopus
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Post by Auxiliaryoctopus » Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:28 pm

ETP, I don't have anything yet. I am researching a whole lot before I jump in. I know what I want to do, but I am hung up on the sequencing aspect. I am thinking of a Pittsburgh Foundation 3 with an additional case that includes Braids, Erbe-Verb, Maths, and Dual Delay. The most important thing in the second case is something to generate the polyrhythmic sequences. I am looking at Yarns, a z8000/Pam's combo, or maybe even a Meadowphysics and a grid. My preference in the Yarns, if it can do it.

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Post by Auxiliaryoctopus » Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:31 pm

Could the z8000 do what I'm looking for on its own?

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Post by robbert » Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:52 pm

The upcomming mfb seq-03 should be capable of this

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ndkent
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Post by ndkent » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:09 am

You'd want a minimum of 2 channels of quantitization to go with the Z8000. You don't have to have quantitizers but if you want tonal results they make things instantly in tune rather than messing around nudging the knobs a fraction of a turn.

Basically it seems like you will need 2 independent clocked sequencers which in the case of z8000 is one module with 16 or less steps that can be played back all sorts of ways at the same time - and a flexible source of clocks in polyrhythm - something like a 4MS rotating clock multiplier unit might do that well.

You mention Yarns. I don't have that or know the exact features. It would definitely provide the MIDI to CV to handle up to 4 sequences if you can generate them. Obviously one way would be a computer to sequence with software which might be more complex for better or worse than hardware.

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Post by aharm » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:19 am

Yarns is great for doing clocked arpeggios, in addition to standard midi ---> CV, but I am not sure if it is what you are looking for.

Have you checked out the ER-101 sequencer? Might be tricky finding one at the moment, but go and give it a look.

The Metropolis is great because you can change things (lengths, pitches, gate outputs, etc) on the fly. easy to be a spontaneously generating 70s minimalist.
Two of them is obviously exponentially better~~

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Post by ETP » Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:29 am

i can recommend pamelas for beats. spits out 8 different programmable trigger/gate line. internal clock.
euclid OS available. a logic and switch would add much more joy.

in my case gate inverters are important

cv´s can be generated in many ways.
synced lfo or envelope or crossfade between both into a quantizer and triggered with a synced trigger pattern it can give you a nice and controllable melody.
take this vc line and go through an inverter/offset or another mixed in sequence or both you will get a different cv line.
not independent but different.
s/h can make it more interesting. especially in a feedback loop and/or odd clock divisions.

if you want it totally independent and full controll buy two cv seqencers. add a switch for much more fun.

i don´t know yarns. i don´t use midi together with modular. not yet

i just bought the klasmata which is an euclid seq/divider.
has one channel and is cv able. together with logic and clock divider it makes a powerfull combo.

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hamildad
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Post by hamildad » Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:11 am

uScale has an A out and B out, you can set the shift to affect the B out only,

so you can set the notes in a sequencer and quantise on the A out, then send shift in a control voltage and send that out on B out ( which will be melodically tied to A out) (( but you will not be able to totally chose the notes)

then use the two different trigger outs on uStep to play a 8 trigger sequence and a 5 trigger sequence?

I'll have a play tonight, and see what I come up with.

I totally recommend a Pamela, if you are going to get deep with Sequencing, you only realise how essential it is, once you buy it and start to integrate it into everything.

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Post by Auxiliaryoctopus » Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:56 am

Would it be correct to say that Pam's isn't all I need though, and that I would need a sequencer to provide control over the actual notes generated? Pam's just generates the clock, right?

I'm sorry, but this sequencer stuff has me stuck. Let me try again: in order to get poly-rhythmic sequences, I would need a euclidian clock to generate the polyrhythm (say Pams or Yarns), two sequencers to generate the melodic sequences, and a quantizer with at least two inputs to make sure the notes are specific notes?

edited for spelling
Last edited by Auxiliaryoctopus on Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Soy Sos
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Post by Soy Sos » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:52 am

Yes, that's basically right. The clocks are the starting point.
With the Z8000 you would send the separate clocks to separate inputs.
You can use the Z8000 as:
Four 4 step sequencers across
Four 4 step sequencers down
One 16 step across
One 16 step down

All patterns share the same knobs.
"1" across uses the top 4 knobs (a, b, c, & d)
"A" down uses the left knobs (1, 2, 3, & 4)
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Post by smcumber » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:14 am

When you say "polyrhythmic" do you just mean sequences with different rhythms, or actual polyrhythms in the classical sense, like 2 against 3, 3 against 4, 2 against 5, etc.?

Simply sending different 16ths to two different sequencers isn't really a polyrhythm. Sending two free-running square LFO's at different speeds would get you some weird ratio polyrhythm, but it would be unrelated to a musical context and impossible to snap it into a meter.

You can easily do 2 against 3 with a MIDI-to-CV converter. With the Kenton Pro Solo, you can divide each MIDI clock beat into 24 subdivisions freely. subdivision 12 would be eighth notes (1/2), subdivision 8 is triplets (1/3), and there you go a polyrhythm 2-against-3 on every beat. For longer subdivisions, let's says 8th's against triplet quarters, it gets more difficult and you need to do some math. I'm pretty sure in that case the 8th would still be 12 and the triplet quarter would be 16 (double the 8th note triplet). You're basically multiplying the MIDI clock 24 subdivision by 2 (2X24=48) to find the lowest common denominator.

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Post by smcumber » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:29 am

I am looking at the Yarns page right now and I can't find anything about triplet subdivisions. If you were able to divide by any sort of triplets for one of the gate outs and duples for another gate out that would give you a polyrhythm. There are more complex polyrhythms than that but I think that's basically what it would be limited to.

I was trying to think of another way of doing it besides writing individual MIDI notes into a piano roll and using a MIDI/CV converter, but I think mathematically it just wouldn't work with a clock divider or whatever if you want a reasonable-length sequence.

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Post by monads » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:41 am

smcumber wrote:When you say "polyrhythmic" do you just mean sequences with different rhythms, or actual polyrhythms in the classical sense, like 2 against 3, 3 against 4, 2 against 5, etc.?
Yeah...needs some clarification. Why not use:

-MIDI2CV by Hexinverter or Yarns by MI
-2VCOs, any module of choice
-2ADSRS, any module of choice
-2VCAs, any module of choice
-MIXER, any module of choice for the above

You'll have complete freedom to program polyrhythms, counterpoint, etc.

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Post by smcumber » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:56 am

Easiest way to create a polyrhythm - get two people in a room with two trigger pads, one person taps eighth notes and the other taps triplets (or quintuplets, or septuplets, 37-uplets, etc.....)

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Post by scottmoon » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:59 am

Easiest way to get some quick polyrhythms.
http://www.modulargrid.net/e/noise-engi ... -repetitor
"If you think this world is bad, you should see some of the others" - PKD

My band's noise https://soundcloud.com/lunarasylum

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Post by smcumber » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:02 pm

those aren't polyrhythms. I think we have a hazy definition of polyrhythm going on here.

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Post by Auxiliaryoctopus » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:47 pm

So, what I mean is "polyrhythm" in the technical sense: 3 over 2, 3 over 4, 5 over 4, etc. So, one synth voice would play, for example, 3 notes for every 2 in the other voice, those occurring over the same time-span.

I mean, it would also be cool to generate polymeter. So, 3/4 and 4/4 happening at the same tempo, so the the "4" count of the 4/4 is the "1" of the second 3/4 and they recycle on the 12th beat of both. I assume that would be easy enough with two synth voices, a single clock, and two sequencers that let you choose how many steps.

But, what I am trying for is true polyrhythm. It may be too cumbersome for what it's worth. I was just wondering if there was a relatively easy solution, and specifically if the euclidian mode of Yarns was that solution.

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Post by Auxiliaryoctopus » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:52 pm

monads wrote:
smcumber wrote:When you say "polyrhythmic" do you just mean sequences with different rhythms, or actual polyrhythms in the classical sense, like 2 against 3, 3 against 4, 2 against 5, etc.?
Yeah...needs some clarification. Why not use:

-MIDI2CV by Hexinverter or Yarns by MI
-2VCOs, any module of choice
-2ADSRS, any module of choice
-2VCAs, any module of choice
-MIXER, any module of choice for the above

You'll have complete freedom to program polyrhythms, counterpoint, etc.
Would I be able to program the polyrhythms, counterpoint, etc. in the two voices with just the single Yarns?

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Post by smcumber » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:57 pm

If your subdivisions are the same (say the same length 16th notes), polymeter would be extremely simple, you just run two sequencers simultaneously with different lengths. For example one is 16 steps (that would be 4/4) and the other is 12 steps (that would be 3/4) and send them the same clock.

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Post by smcumber » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:58 pm

er yeah you just said that. sorry :despair:

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robotfunk
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Post by robotfunk » Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:14 pm

try 2 Moskwa's for some instant polyrhythmic fun.

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Post by smcumber » Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:16 pm

Ack that wouldn't be polyrhythmic either!!!!!!!!!! :deadbanana:
Last edited by smcumber on Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by smcumber » Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:18 pm

There needs to be a collective muffwiggler music theory class.

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