Today my small discovery was...

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Mr. Wiggles
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Re: Today my small discovery was...

Post by Mr. Wiggles » Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:03 pm

BaggerMcGuirk wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:55 pm
I guess I never quite realized that both S&H and quantizers take a cv sample and hold it in place. Quantizers just take the extra step of adjusting the voltage to a pre-defined grid. I was watching the Voltage Control Lab video about Quantermain on Ornament and Crime, and it talked about how turning off the grid made it a S&H module, and it was a little light bulb moment for me.
I'd argue that quantization and sample and hold are fundamentally different concepts. Since most any quantizer is going to be digital anyway, though, adding a gate/trigger input ads relatively little in terms of cost and complexity.

At a certain level, any digital module samples and holds its inputs (often just at a very high rate, and possibly with some additional filtering to avoid aliasing when sampling at that rate).

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hinterlands303
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Re: Today my small discovery was...

Post by hinterlands303 » Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:14 pm

BaggerMcGuirk wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:55 pm
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:43 pm
BaggerMcGuirk wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:31 pm
I learned that quantizers and S&H modules are very nearly the same thing. It broke my brain a little.
How so?
I guess I never quite realized that both S&H and quantizers take a cv sample and hold it in place. Quantizers just take the extra step of adjusting the voltage to a pre-defined grid. I was watching the Voltage Control Lab video about Quantermain on Ornament and Crime, and it talked about how turning off the grid made it a S&H module, and it was a little light bulb moment for me.
FYI not all quantizers work this way - quite a few need a separate sample and hold either before or after the quantizer in order to hold the voltage in place until the next trigger/gate. It seems most newer designs include a trigger in as a feature (which is, in fact a sample and hold) but there are still designs in production where you have to patch this yourself.

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BaggerMcGuirk
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Re: Today my small discovery was...

Post by BaggerMcGuirk » Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:19 pm

Ah, I suppose my discovery grows even smaller(Quantermain instead of quantizers in general). Thanks for the info!

Mr. Wiggles
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Re: Today my small discovery was...

Post by Mr. Wiggles » Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:22 pm

It's still super useful if that's what you need, though!
Last edited by Mr. Wiggles on Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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moremagic
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Re: Today my small discovery was...

Post by moremagic » Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:26 pm

s&h quantizes a voltage in time , a quantizer quantizes a voltage in level as well

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Jopy
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Re: Today my small discovery was...

Post by Jopy » Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:41 pm

The 0-ctrl in running mode isn't like a sequencer, it's a looping envelope generator/slew limiter, but with no attack control. It's maths (or mini slew, or what have you) in looping mode (the attenuator part is the strength row) with a very intricate patchable step-sequenced slope/duration (the time row) and then a CV control (pitch row) that's along for the ride, that can also output CV for the strength and duration.

Or at least it helps me to think about it that way. Please don't correct me if I'm wrong, I feel like I finally get the timing behavior... I was super confused about how to understand the clock in functionality (especially with a gate in) until I thought of it that way.

So the "clock" is a analogous to looping decay envelope/slew limiter with a per-step envelope duration.
--When the 0-ctrl clock is slower than an incoming clock, and you run the sequencer, it follows the beat no matter what you do with the time row, just like a looping envelope does when the trigger comes in faster than it can complete the cycle.
--When the speed of the 0-ctrl sequencer is faster than the incoming clock, though, the time row does change the duration of each step, but to varying degrees--the "cycle" resets when a new incoming clock pulse comes in. Again, also like a looping an envelope generator.
--So if the analogy holds, then the dynamic gate is really like an EOR? I guess.
--The time control input is like an attenuator for the time row fixed CV, the strength control input is like an attenuator for the strength row linear-exponential control (up past linear to AHR); it also affects the output voltage.
--Thinking of it that way, the dynamic gate isn't a "feature" of the sequencer per se, it's the heart of the system and the fact that it is a sequencer is more of a byproduct.

I'm sure this way of thinking isn't a new discovery to the world at large, but it was new to me.

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starthief
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Re: Today my small discovery was...

Post by starthief » Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:07 pm

Jopy wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:41 pm
So the "clock" is a analogous to looping decay envelope/slew limiter
Yeah, it took me a bit but I worked that out too.

0-Ctrl external clock input = trigger input on Maths
0-Ctrl time control = fall time on Maths
0-Ctrl run touchplate = cycle button on Maths
0-Ctrl sequence is driven by EOC

And then the dynamic gate and envelope outputs go through VCAs controlled by Strength, and the rest is the sequencer and pressure control... it's a pretty elegant patch in a box.

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Jopy
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Re: Today my small discovery was...

Post by Jopy » Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:28 pm

starthief wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:07 pm
it's a pretty elegant patch in a box.
Yeah, I'm coming to appreciate how much thought went into the concept and just how much different it is from the alternatives.

I thought I knew in advance exactly what I was going to use the 0-ctrl for, but I realize now that my conceptualization was far too simple and linear to capture the full range of the possibilities. I was thinking of a souped up version of a standard external sequencer with full visual feedback--an SQ-1 on steroids or a BSP with some crazy internal patching, so to speak. Neither analogy really fits, it's a different kettle of fish altogether.

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pmboos
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Re: Today my small discovery was...

Post by pmboos » Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:47 pm

Thanks to you both for these posts. I'm having some lightbulbs starting to blink on...
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grrrwaaa
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Re: Today my small discovery was...

Post by grrrwaaa » Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:01 pm

Instruo tanh3 can also be used to pump line level signals up to euro levels. Does it better than the dedicated input module I have in fact.

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Lokua
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Re: Today my small discovery was...

Post by Lokua » Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:54 pm

grrrwaaa wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:01 pm
Instruo tanh3 can also be used to pump line level signals up to euro levels. Does it better than the dedicated input module I have in fact.
Wow. I know what I'm trying next!

1n
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Re: Today my small discovery was...

Post by 1n » Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:07 am

guitar in + envelope follower is the only sequencer I really understand

1n
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Re: Today my small discovery was...

Post by 1n » Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:10 am

Lokua wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:54 pm
grrrwaaa wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:01 pm
Instruo tanh3 can also be used to pump line level signals up to euro levels. Does it better than the dedicated input module I have in fact.
Wow. I know what I'm trying next!
DivKid's video on Tanh shows how to re-input one stage into another with a stackable for increased gain.

nexgen23
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Re: Today my small discovery was...

Post by nexgen23 » Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:40 am

This is from over the weekend, but still a recent one. I discovered how powerful a wavefolder can be for shaping a sound, and that I really need a proper wave folder, the one in Disting and Shapeshifter are okay, but I need a little more flexibility.

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joeSeggiola
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Re: Today my small discovery was...

Post by joeSeggiola » Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:55 pm

nexgen23 wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:40 am
I really need a proper wave folder, the one in Disting and Shapeshifter are okay, but I need a little more flexibility.
What are you looking at? I needed one too, the Ultrafold seemed the nicer, but I haven't decided yet.

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pieter
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Re: Today my small discovery was...

Post by pieter » Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:45 pm

There is an ultrafold for cheap on MG right now. It's on my list to get, but decided against it since I literrally just bought Beads...

BlinkyLights
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Re: Today my small discovery was...

Post by BlinkyLights » Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:59 pm

grrrwaaa wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:01 pm
Instruo tanh3 can also be used to pump line level signals up to euro levels. Does it better than the dedicated input module I have in fact.
fwiw, the Ladik A-520 (4hp) is 4x Line to Euro preamps.

$50.

Works great. I have two of them.

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WarpHead
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Re: Today my small discovery was...

Post by WarpHead » Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:56 pm

Ladik is the undisputed king in this domain, as far as I'm concerned. What a mad genius.
Don't believe the hype.

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Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
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Re: Today my small discovery was...

Post by Dr. Sketch-n-Etch » Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:38 pm

moremagic wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:26 pm
s&h quantizes a voltage in time , a quantizer quantizes a voltage in level as well
S&H doesn't quantize voltages at all -- it stores whatever random voltage is being sampled.
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Morog Far
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Re: Today my small discovery was...

Post by Morog Far » Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:43 am

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:38 pm
moremagic wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:26 pm
s&h quantizes a voltage in time , a quantizer quantizes a voltage in level as well
S&H doesn't quantize voltages at all -- it stores whatever random voltage is being sampled.
You're on the same page there, quantized in time wasn't meant in regards to the actual voltage value, but that the size/length of valued chunks/quants you get is determined by the Sample and Hold.

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batch
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Re: Today my small discovery was...

Post by batch » Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:48 am

Morog Far wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:43 am
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:38 pm
moremagic wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:26 pm
s&h quantizes a voltage in time , a quantizer quantizes a voltage in level as well
S&H doesn't quantize voltages at all -- it stores whatever random voltage is being sampled.
You're on the same page there, quantized in time wasn't meant in regards to the actual voltage value, but that the size/length of valued chunks/quants you get is determined by the Sample and Hold.
I think the point the OP was making, and which is correct, is that a quantizer with a trigger input (such as the ones on o_C, Sinfonion, etc.) act a lot like a S&H module in that they sample a voltage on the trigger. They just go the extra step of also quantizing that voltage to a scale.

Appreciate that there are quantizers that are continuous (including the ones previously mentioned but with nothing plugged in to their trigger inputs). But this does mean that you can use a o_C quantizer so as an S&H that can then be used to modulate things other than pitch. I do this all the time and it’s why I have my o_C always in quantizer mode.
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AMillionMonkeys
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Re: Today my small discovery was...

Post by AMillionMonkeys » Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:55 am

I found a cool trick over the weekend that can be done with a uni/bi-polar offset (I used an Intellijel Duatt).

The goal was to quickly lower the energy of my track so I set a Duatt channel to full CCW with the switch set to unipolar mode. The output was patched in the secondary resonance CV input of 3 different filters (2 for synth voices and 1 for drums). When I am ready to lower the energy, I just flip the switch into bi-polar mode and suddenly, -5V is sent to all my filters which lowered them to exactly the level I wanted.

Those new metal switches Intellijel is using makes it even easier and more fun to flick them than the old black plastic ones.

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BaloErets
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Re: Today my small discovery was...

Post by BaloErets » Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:24 pm

Was using the Sports Modulator as a single channel Portamento with nothing going into the S&H input. Having the Sports Mod in it's default S&H mode, the sequence plays as usual with the portamento applying to every note change, but you can manually switch modes to T&H to hold onto a note and keep it held until you manually change the mode again.

This was really nice for as it allowed me to choose when the portamento was going to kick in. Very handy performance tool.

nexgen23
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Re: Today my small discovery was...

Post by nexgen23 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:19 pm

joeSeggiola wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:55 pm
nexgen23 wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:40 am
I really need a proper wave folder, the one in Disting and Shapeshifter are okay, but I need a little more flexibility.
What are you looking at? I needed one too, the Ultrafold seemed the nicer, but I haven't decided yet.
I ended up ording a Jorganalog Fold 6, I am a big fan of their modules, and videos show it being very flexible. Ultrafold does look very flexible too, it wasn’t really on my radar, might try one of those at some point, should I need another folder :)

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CeilingFanDan
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Re: Today my small discovery was...

Post by CeilingFanDan » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:04 pm

Small discovery was sending stepped cv to the size parameter in typhoon Oliverb mode (I’m assuming works for erbe too?) makes drummy sounds.
A straight up gate (like the default from PNW) with even on/off time sounds kind of like a kick and snare.
Crazy

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