Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

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dBVelocity
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Re: Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

Post by dBVelocity » Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:22 pm

Well Satellites have 4 cv, the logic and the time scale cv.
If you're only using it for basic shapes, then you're not really getting the most out of it. The contours are dynamic with programming from the CF. You also get the triggers and inverted output. It's not as simple as a sampled contour. I have the Assimil8or, CF and a Satellite. I load audio on the A8 and control the hell out of it as it's much more gratifying to have 8 voices that evolve in a manner that I choose. Having the Satellite gives me the ability to take the FULL PROGRAMS and sequences from CF and use them while I dial in new ones to another destination.

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Re: Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

Post by dumbeat » Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:29 pm

CF is totally unintuitive and unmusical to operate, and slow to get results as hell, compared to any other CV Generator I've used. I got one.

I would add 8 Outputs and 8 little pots, for each segment, that can change from Level to Time or, if only 2 pots like now, a recorder for sequence parameters, so instead of programming each thing you just record the time and volume over the duration of the entire "sequence", using that2 pots, and tell it to how many segments to spit the performance.

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Re: Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

Post by dBVelocity » Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:55 pm

:omg:
Tell me again how you would record time durations in real time over a looped sequence that is based on the time scale that your inputting? How do I get segments of different lengths?

I'll maybe wait till that module you designed comes out that you clearly have thought through.

In all seriousness... If it's not for you, move on. Complaining here is not going to affect the design. I get along with it pretty good and would rather discuss potential.

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Re: Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

Post by hlmm » Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:34 am

dumbeat wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:29 pm
CF is totally unintuitive and unmusical to operate, and slow to get results as hell, compared to any other CV Generator I've used. I got one. I would add 8 Outputs and 8 little pots, for each segment, that can change from Level to Time or, if only 2 pots like now, a recorder for sequence parameters, so instead of programming each thing you just record the time and volume over the duration of the entire "sequence", using that2 pots, and tell it to how many segments to spit the performance.
I got your point – to me the revelation happened after I learned how to:
- copy/paste the steps;
- copy/paste single parameter between steps;
- adjust one parameter for all 8 steps and than move to another parameter (instead of programming all params for one step and moving to another step).

Another essential thing was to understanding what the programming buttons can do when in Play mode and of course the fact that you can use the step buttons as alfa-numeric keyboard when naming the presets/sequences.

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Re: Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

Post by dumbeat » Mon Sep 28, 2020 5:49 pm

Neither of these things, though sound like time saving, are real time "performance" elements. Its like programming music instead of playing it... you get my point...

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Re: Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

Post by Misk » Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:08 pm

8 individual outs on the CF doesn't seem useful to me unless you've got 8 different sequences playing simultaneously—which it can't really do. run the CV out into a voltage block or something and you've got a pretty high powered scannable sequencer.

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Re: Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

Post by dumbeat » Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:10 pm

Misk wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:08 pm
8 individual outs on the CF doesn't seem useful to me unless you've got 8 different sequences playing simultaneously—which it can't really do. run the CV out into a voltage block or something and you've got a pretty high powered scannable sequencer.
Was thinking about that, however, if you had 8 outs you could use it perhaps as 2 or 3 separate contours like on the Verbos or on Mutable. The tech is there, no reason it would not be able to do that... Unless it can't do 2 stages simultaneously, which i find strange considering g much cheaper devices are able.

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Re: Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

Post by Analog Music » Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:01 pm

Can CF do a Filter cutoff envelope that's bpm sync ?

Can CF do any BPM related modulation in the traditional since of Techno , like
filter , amp , pitch modulation but in rhythm with bpm , Techno 101 stuff ?

Can Control Forge do this type of stuff or maybe I don't understand it ?

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Re: Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

Post by dBVelocity » Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:29 pm

I've a video here that breaks down how it works and a couple examples of use with external sync and internal clock.


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Re: Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

Post by ignatius » Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:10 pm

dBVelocity wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:29 pm
I've a video here that breaks down how it works and a couple examples of use with external sync and internal clock.

nice one. thanks for that. it's a good walk through and shows the possibilities

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Re: Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

Post by zengomi » Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:11 am

dBVelocity wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:29 pm
I've a video here that breaks down how it works and a couple examples of use with external sync and internal clock.

Great! More, please :hihi:


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Re: Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

Post by wavejockey » Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:34 am

you've got 2/3/4 CV inputs, so in theory, one should be able to 'record' the tempo based ENV from a 4ms pingable env generator and imply/use that as a means of more deliberate/programmed modulation, no?

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Re: Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

Post by Analog Music » Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:06 pm

dBVelocity wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:29 pm
I've a video here that breaks down how it works and a couple examples of use with external sync and internal clock.

Thanks that helps a-lot , really appreciate the more musical examples, would luv to see more . .

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Re: Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

Post by Analog Music » Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:11 pm

wavejockey wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:34 am
you've got 2/3/4 CV inputs, so in theory, one should be able to 'record' the tempo based ENV from a 4ms pingable env generator and imply/use that as a means of more deliberate/programmed modulation, no?
Can you explain this idea further , are you saying the 4ms pingable can help sync the CF with external clock or sequencer ?

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Re: Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

Post by dBVelocity » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:12 pm

Not really getting what you mean. You have cv in 1 and 2 which are used for pass thru, and subsequent evaluation for relative levels. It may also be quantized... Or... it can be evaluated as a threshold for jump conditions. CV 3 and 4 are the direct knobs for level and time while in play mode and have the same behavior just without an external in.

The external sync idea comes from using either the gate or logic input....with the gate, you are typically reseting to segment 1 which is the typical 8 stage envelope where you program a "wait for gate fall" at the sustain with jump destination set to the release stage. You can set the internal BPM to match your project or adjust the time scale. e.g. internal at 100 and then use the data knob in play mode to scale the time for project tempo so 1.30*100 =130. Using this method let's you see the time values in notation form such as 1/8 note for the decay stage.

The logic input can be used for clock if you set each segment to "wait for logic" and the jump destination is the next segment. This will still have a duration of shape to follow so if it ramps upward it will do so for the time setting then hold until the logic rises. This duration may be truncated by the logic rise. Think of a glide that doesn't quite hit the note before moving to the next stage.

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Re: Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

Post by Analog Music » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:44 am

dBVelocity wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:12 pm
Not really getting what you mean. You have cv in 1 and 2 which are used for pass thru, and subsequent evaluation for relative levels. It may also be quantized... Or... it can be evaluated as a threshold for jump conditions. CV 3 and 4 are the direct knobs for level and time while in play mode and have the same behavior just without an external in.

The external sync idea comes from using either the gate or logic input....with the gate, you are typically reseting to segment 1 which is the typical 8 stage envelope where you program a "wait for gate fall" at the sustain with jump destination set to the release stage. You can set the internal BPM to match your project or adjust the time scale. e.g. internal at 100 and then use the data knob in play mode to scale the time for project tempo so 1.30*100 =130. Using this method let's you see the time values in notation form such as 1/8 note for the decay stage.

The logic input can be used for clock if you set each segment to "wait for logic" and the jump destination is the next segment. This will still have a duration of shape to follow so if it ramps upward it will do so for the time setting then hold until the logic rises. This duration may be truncated by the logic rise. Think of a glide that doesn't quite hit the note before moving to the next stage.
Does all of this mean you can sync the CF to external clock or sequencer ?
Sometime you just want to do a simple filter cutoff in sync with bpm using a lfo , it's techno 101 stuff , can this be done with CF or can it be helped to do it with support modules or maybe the answer is no .

I think wavejockey was saying 4ms pingable env generator can help CF , I really have no idea but was hopeful .
You maybe explaining this above but I'm too much of a noob to understand .

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Re: Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

Post by dBVelocity » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:48 am

It is not a module with external clock sync ready to go. You have to program it for specific needs and behaviors. It's more complex than your simple goal and it can do it with ease but you have to set it up that way.

The 4ms PEG is going to give you dual basic shapes, it's a similar vein to Maths or Rampage.
Sending a multiple of the vca env to the filter cutoff is going to give you the envelope to filter in sync with the note trigger. Or split the gate to a separate envelope for that filter cutoff. It's patching 101 stuff.

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Re: Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

Post by Analog Music » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:43 pm

dBVelocity wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:48 am
It is not a module with external clock sync ready to go. You have to program it for specific needs and behaviors. It's more complex than your simple goal and it can do it with ease but you have to set it up that way.

The 4ms PEG is going to give you dual basic shapes, it's a similar vein to Maths or Rampage.
Sending a multiple of the vca env to the filter cutoff is going to give you the envelope to filter in sync with the note trigger. Or split the gate to a separate envelope for that filter cutoff. It's patching 101 stuff.
Ok , please do not take my comments as trying to come off as snooty , I believe CF is the most complex and one of the most fascinating modules available in Eurorack today and it's potential can not be unlocked with out some silly questions from people like me . I'll admit I'm a noob at some of the patching ideals you present even if for you it's rather simple , so thanks for your videos and post here on this , it is truly appreciated.

I am excited to hear that what I want to do is possible with CF or at least it sounds like it is from your post above .
I know CF is way more complex than the simple things I'm asking to do but for me it helps to start off simple with CF and then move to more complex ideas .

I know CF bpm can be set to 120 bpm (or whatever) but thats not the same as sync locked to external sequencer clock , with dance music like techno the sync has to be completely looked in or the sound is off .

So please do me a favor and quarterback this play , forgive me if I'm asking CF to do something it's not meant to do ,but you can add other modules where you think it will help achieve this goal , shall we . Here it goes :

Say I have an external sequencer melody on VCO-1 and thats being fed into VCF-1 jamming at 120 bpm , I want CF to do filter cutoff/modulation on that VCF-1 in sync at 120 bpm . How would I set that up ?
If other modules are needed to help please state what when and where . I don't mind needing to program CF to do this I just want to know it's possible , this is greatly appreciated even if it's patching 101 ;)

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Re: Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

Post by dBVelocity » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:16 pm

Not a big deal, just plot the shape of modulation. Maybe on paper first ...for each stage. Set the global bpm to 120 or whatever. Then program stages e.g. attack is linear shape, level goes to +5 volt absolute over 1/16th note duration.. Decay is linear 0 volt absolute for 1/16th note. A simple "always" "stop" on stage 2 here is like a one shot simple unipolar attack release envelope that will wait for the gate to trigger and lasts for 1/8th note overall. Now you can use the play mode to affect the time scale such as double the overall duration to 1/4 note with the data knob easily by pressing in and turning it.

The internal clock is quite solid and other users say they have tested for continuous looping without the retriggered gate....drift is only noticed after 10 min or so. This will vary depending on the master clock source and a simple reset style gate will sync it up again.

CF works bipolar -5v to +5v so if you want 0v to +10v then you need an external bias control module with that ability. It's not too likely you will need that especially where filter cutoff will have a knob to set the base level. Though it can be useful to patch the above example into an attenuator so as to just dial the amount with a single knob rather than reprogram the levels.

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Re: Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

Post by BrokenBo » Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:30 pm

can anyone tell me if the bpm mode from the newest control forge firmware is also included in the satellite?

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Re: Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

Post by dBVelocity » Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:54 am

BPM does display if it is on for that program but that's about it. There is no display of any segment duration values whether note value or milliseconds on Satellite. Just a progress bar.

All programs load and play just fine as they were made from CF regardless.

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Re: Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

Post by OHEXOH » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:50 am

Feature request (which might help user preset sharing?)

Update / add new Merge User Data option to allow the receiving device to pick the destination preset slot.

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Re: Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

Post by OHEXOH » Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:01 pm

I'm a new owner of the Forge and love the precision and potential the module offers. I love how it can go super complex but can also work quite simply.

So here's my super basic 101-style question, I have the Forge set up to receive a clock into it's Logic input. I have Jump Mode for all 8 segments set to wait4LogicRise (as recommended by Marco earlier in this thread). This effectively advances the segments in sync with a clock.

The problem I'm having however is starting on the downbeat. If I position the Forge so Segment 1 is lit and then start my clock the first step heard is not Segment 1 but Segment 2. I can manually position Segment 8 to be the resting step and when my clock starts the Segment 1 becomes the first step played... however this doesn't play well with a gate reset into the Gate input. A reset moves the Forge to Segment 1 and then the first step heard is Segment 2 - this happens whether the reset happens in sync with my clock Start or Stop.

I can of course manually reposition my system whenever the clock stops ready to start it back up again, but I'm wondering if there's another way that can successfully automate this using the built in Reset via Gate and work as intended?

I've tried looking through the manual but can't find anything on this.

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Re: Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

Post by hlmm » Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:00 pm

OHEXOH wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:01 pm
...
I can of course manually reposition my system whenever the clock stops ready to start it back up again, but I'm wondering if there's another way that can successfully automate this using the built in Reset via Gate and work as intended?..
Try reseting through Preset Sequencer's inputs:
- save your preset (with steps advancing on wait4logic for example, you can also use gate rise... does not matter)
- make a preset sequence where you have 1 step with preset above
- patch the reset signal to Preset Sequencer RESET input (DEC and INC will also work as it will smply cycle through 1 preset in this case).

Remember that when you are in preset programing mode, Preset Sequencer is ignoring INC DEC and RESET inputs = it will only reset to step 1 in play mode.

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Re: Rossum Control Forge and Satellite

Post by OHEXOH » Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:12 am

Thanks, I’ll give that a try. What I’m also learning is the Forge when not stepped with a clock and is instead running at a given tempo, appears to be off with some of my other modules also set set the same tempo. For example, when I send a reset whilst in play, the reset will often happen just the Forge has moved to the next segment. Only slightly but there’s a blip from the next contour. I can fix that by slightly nudging the bpm down by 0.1. I’m not sure which module is the culprit though...
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