Erbe-Verb: Can't find comparable reverb, why so unique?

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anderson303
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Erbe-Verb: Can't find comparable reverb, why so unique?

Post by anderson303 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:41 pm

After finding myself using the Erbe only as an end of chain effect module I sold it thinking I could find something close enough in my UAD-2 algorithms, (Erbe is just another algorithm right?) but I can't get that unique sound and I'm afraid I'll have to buy it back again.

Any idea why it sounds so unique? Or where I might get something similar that won't take up precious HP in my rack?

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Post by ibzieg » Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:55 pm

I really want to like the Erbe-Verb. I bought it because I love the concept of parametric reverb with so much CV control, but it's that "unique" sound you're describing that has driven it out of my main case. I personally feel like I can't get it to not sound "metallic". I still think it's awesome and use it occasionally but I needed a break from that.

Considering that the Erbe-Verb includes a pre-delay section, I think you can get a lot of mileage out of separate Delay + Reverb modules. I've been pretty obsessed with the Springray spring reverb (kind of ironic since I was complaining about the Erbe-Verb being too metalic, and the spring reverb is metalic by it's nature, but I still think it sounds more natural).

What about the Erica Black Hole DSP? i don't know much about it but I think it's less HP than the Erbe-Verb and TipTop Z-Dsp

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Post by anderson303 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 7:17 pm

Exactly, It's the metallic sound I'm after. Good way to put it. But artificially metallic. I had a the Ekdahl Moisturizer which was all metal, and it sounded far too real for me, too punk rock/rock and roll.

I think I might just have to get the Erbe, I have/I've had so many reverbs you convinced me there's nothing like it.

Sometimes I wonder about leaving a big module unscrewed and swapping it out...

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Post by anderson303 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 7:19 pm

(Black Hole sounds pretty unique too BTW)

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Post by sloth713 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:16 pm

With tweeking the Strymon Big Sky or Eventide Space will get you what you want with tweeking but it wont give you the extensive cv control and need signal attentuation (at least from modulars) to sound there best. All three things cost about the same so look at features, interface, and sound demos until you find what sounds/works the best for you

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Post by anderson303 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:24 pm

Hmmm... Maybe the Space.. great demo here:


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Post by anderson303 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:28 pm

sloth713 wrote:and need signal attentuation
I've got a M-120 3ch attenuverting mixer, suitable for both audio and CV signals (DC coupled), and the pittsburgh modular InOut Multi-purpose Input and Output Module "a two way communication line for audio between a modular the outside world. The InOut is divided into two sections, output and input."

Will this do?

Really digging that eventide.

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Post by thelizard » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:31 pm

For the DSP nerds, here's Tom's recent ICMC paper on the Erbe-Verb's structure.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/i/icmc/bbp237 ... view=image

To answer the original question: It sounds unique because it's an algorithm of Tom's own creation. Most Euro and plug-in reverbs are based on existing papers and algorithms. The reverb in many Mutable modules, for instance, is based off of a famous paper by Jon Dattorro. (It's a fantastic reverb, though. No knock against it is intended by pointing that out)

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Post by dogoftears » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:31 pm

u-he zrev
it's even better
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Post by sloth713 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:35 pm

The InOut worked just fine with my Big Sky, I have never used the M-120 so I can't fully speak for it but any decent module cappable of any kind of attenuation should work to make sure the signal doenst clip in the Eventide Space.

The Eventide space is such a cool sound shaping tool, I just went with the Big Sky because It is equally powerful and like the sound of the the Big Sky better. Also I love the idea of the Erbe-Vetb but just like the sound of the Big Sky better. Finally with attenuation and dc offset of a dc signal you can use the the expression input on both the Space and Big Sky as a cv input.

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Post by anderson303 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:41 pm

Found a 2nd hand Erbe Verb. Might as well get both the Erbe and Eventide and sell the one I use the least.

I basically run a hotel for synths and effects.

Or just stick with the Erbe. I need more money.

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Post by sloth713 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:50 pm

anderson303 wrote:I basically run a hotel for synths and effects.
Spoken like a true wiggler :sb:

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Post by anderson303 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:53 pm

sloth713 wrote:I just went with the Big Sky because It is equally powerful and like the sound of the the Big Sky better.
I end up often at the fate of the best youtube demo unless I can sneak into guitar center and then buy online.

The Eventide demo was better than the bigsky demo!?!

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Post by sloth713 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:11 pm

I went off youtube/soundcloud demos for my choice and i don't regret it at all. The compression of various internet sites will compress out some of the nuances but the overall sound is still there, so trust your gut feeling.

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Post by mt3 » Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:04 am

sloth713 wrote:
anderson303 wrote:I basically run a hotel for synths and effects.
Spoken like a true wiggler :sb:
I find "bukkake brothel" to be a more accurate terminology.
:omg:

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Post by Jumbuktu » Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:06 am

anderson303 wrote:Found a 2nd hand Erbe Verb. Might as well get both the Erbe and Eventide and sell the one I use the least.

I basically run a hotel for synths and effects.
I have both. Erbe is in and out of my racks from week to week. I dare not sell it, even when I am not using it.

Actually, there is an idea for a thread here: "Which modules do you dare not remove from your rack even though you rarely use them?" - I would include the expanders for the QCD and Quadra in this category as well.

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Post by mt3 » Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:06 am

dogoftears wrote:u-he zrev
it's even better
zrev?
As someone who believes Presswerk is perfectly amazing, you've aroused my curiosity.

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Post by Tunatoboggan » Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:17 am

thelizard wrote:For the DSP nerds, here's Tom's recent ICMC paper on the Erbe-Verb's structure.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/i/icmc/bbp237 ... view=image
Don't mean to derail the topic here, but I really enjoyed this, makes me want to look into dsp development. Do you have any more resources for learning to make this type of stuff?

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Post by ym2612 » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:21 pm

Tunatoboggan wrote:
thelizard wrote:For the DSP nerds, here's Tom's recent ICMC paper on the Erbe-Verb's structure.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/i/icmc/bbp237 ... view=image
Don't mean to derail the topic here, but I really enjoyed this, makes me want to look into dsp development. Do you have any more resources for learning to make this type of stuff?
There are a lot of academic papers on DSP algorithms and such, and Google will turn up a lot of them. I don't know a specific source that links a lot of them, but try looking for papers by Julius O. Smith and Jon Dattorro. Smith also literally wrote the book(s) on DSP algorithms: https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/

The Pure Data-focused book by Miller Puckette is a good starting resource for this, too: http://msp.ucsd.edu/techniques.htm

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Post by thelizard » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:48 pm

ym2612 wrote:
Tunatoboggan wrote:
thelizard wrote:For the DSP nerds, here's Tom's recent ICMC paper on the Erbe-Verb's structure.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/i/icmc/bbp237 ... view=image
Don't mean to derail the topic here, but I really enjoyed this, makes me want to look into dsp development. Do you have any more resources for learning to make this type of stuff?
There are a lot of academic papers on DSP algorithms and such, and Google will turn up a lot of them. I don't know a specific source that links a lot of them, but try looking for papers by Julius O. Smith and Jon Dattorro. Smith also literally wrote the book(s) on DSP algorithms: https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/

The Pure Data-focused book by Miller Puckette is a good starting resource for this, too: http://msp.ucsd.edu/techniques.htm
My students really love this book:


It's great because it covers math and DSP in a really gentle manner. It's a pretty solid starting point.

The Audio Programming Book is also excellent, but a bit more intense:

The DVD that comes with it is particularly great.

If you have a *very* strong math foundation, the Julius O. Smith books are free and among the four best: https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/

I recommend those three resources more than the usual academic DSP books (Lyons, Prolakis, Oppenheimer, etc.) because they focus *only* on audio, especially in a musical context.

Also, I personally have used the DAFX book a lot in my research:


If you like Max/MSP, I also really recommend the Electronic Music and Sound Design series. They simultaneously teach Max skills, electronic music history, and DSP:

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Post by Infinity Curve » Wed Aug 31, 2016 2:02 pm

mt3 wrote:
dogoftears wrote:u-he zrev
it's even better
zrev?
As someone who believes Presswerk is perfectly amazing, you've aroused my curiosity.
It's very old, released in 2006.

I would recommend the Valhalla plugins, both Shimmer and Room are amazing and only $50 each

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Post by geecen » Wed Aug 31, 2016 2:45 pm

Also, the erbeverb is by the soundhack guy so you might want to have a look at his amazing plugins too to apply in post. 8-)

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Post by dogoftears » Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:43 pm

mt3 wrote:
dogoftears wrote:u-he zrev
it's even better
zrev?
As someone who believes Presswerk is perfectly amazing, you've aroused my curiosity.
it used to come with zebra, it was the only way you could get it. i never use zebra but i use zrev in countless projects. crazy droning metallic verb with weird controls. very unique.
music and mastering: http://xexify.com
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Post by justin3am » Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:56 pm

Infinity Curve wrote:
mt3 wrote:
dogoftears wrote:u-he zrev
it's even better
zrev?
As someone who believes Presswerk is perfectly amazing, you've aroused my curiosity.
It's very old, released in 2006.

I would recommend the Valhalla plugins, both Shimmer and Room are amazing and only $50 each
zRev and Valhalla plug-ins have very different approaches. I think they both have their place.

Valhalla plug-ins hide a lot of the complexity that is going on behind the scenes and focuses on the parameters which have the most dramatic effect. Lots of sweet spots, not many "bad" settings.

zRev exposes a lot of that complexity but is a bit ambiguous about the structure and signal flow, so it's difficult to tell how one parameter influences another. I still think this is a unique reverb plug-in with a lot of untapped potential but also a lot of potential for ugly sounds (which is something I love about it).
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Post by suthnear » Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:13 pm

older budget rack reverbs (alesis, the budget lexicons, zoom, etc) all have that metallic ringing quality to some degree.

the big sky and space are quite a bit lusher and less metallic sounding than the EV although doubtless you could tweak them to get closer.

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