Erbe-Verb: Can't find comparable reverb, why so unique?

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lionelfischer
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Post by lionelfischer » Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:14 pm

Tunatoboggan wrote: Don't mean to derail the topic here, but I really enjoyed this, makes me want to look into dsp development. Do you have any more resources for learning to make this type of stuff?
read seans awesome blog: http://valhalladsp.com/blog/

there's a few specific posts on him reverse engineering older rack reverb units and learning about them that are really good, but the whole thing is a joy to read

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anderson303
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Post by anderson303 » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:08 pm

suthnear wrote:older budget rack reverbs (alesis, the budget lexicons, zoom, etc) all have that metallic ringing quality to some degree.

the big sky and space are quite a bit lusher and less metallic sounding than the EV although doubtless you could tweak them to get closer.
Lexicon never did it for me. I think I had the PCM something or other...

I always felt the EV was exactly what I was looking for... Nuts that I sold it. New (used) one arrives friday. Still want that Eventide though...

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Infinity Curve
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Post by Infinity Curve » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:29 pm

Yamaha SPX990 does that metallic verb really well too

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Post by chaosick » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:27 am

This seems a problem with all digital reverbs once you raise the level past a certain %. I think people got so used to the sound of digital effects that they don't even know what real reverb (you know, reverbation in a physical hall, which can be heard magnificently in REAL cathedrals, halls, that took decades to build..), to the point where I hear it being used way too heavily on professional records, sounding quite cheesy to me. I like to use primarily spring reverb followed by a small amount of digital reverb in the post processing. Something about that usually feels right and usually gives a good level of liveliness without coming off as unnatural.
ibzieg wrote:I really want to like the Erbe-Verb. I bought it because I love the concept of parametric reverb with so much CV control, but it's that "unique" sound you're describing that has driven it out of my main case. I personally feel like I can't get it to not sound "metallic". I still think it's awesome and use it occasionally but I needed a break from that.

Considering that the Erbe-Verb includes a pre-delay section, I think you can get a lot of mileage out of separate Delay + Reverb modules. I've been pretty obsessed with the Springray spring reverb (kind of ironic since I was complaining about the Erbe-Verb being too metalic, and the spring reverb is metalic by it's nature, but I still think it sounds more natural).

What about the Erica Black Hole DSP? i don't know much about it but I think it's less HP than the Erbe-Verb and TipTop Z-Dsp

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Post by risome » Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:08 am


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Post by He_lium » Fri Sep 02, 2016 8:58 am

Effectively Erbe-Verb is unique. But 2 years after buying it and using it a lot with my other reverb (A-199), I got tired of its metallic sound. Strangely perhaps, I always appreciate the different metallic sound of my A-199. So I've decided to sell Erbe and buy Space. I feel that its very particular sonority has become rather unpleasant to my ears. So, time to move... Perhaps I will miss its noise machine aspect. Future will tell me...

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Post by aermusic » Fri Sep 02, 2016 9:16 am

I'm gonna put my newb head on the chopping block here... It may not be as fully featured it seems as the Erbe-Verb, but the Oliverb setting in Clouds Parasite Firmware is extremely fun and sounds great to my ears. It might help solve the problem of wanting to pull the Erbe-Verb in and out of the rack all the time as you have 5 other modes to enjoy for other patches were Oliverb isn't needed.

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Post by 808KickDrum » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:58 pm

90s budget reverbs had a metallic quality, whereas high-end 80s reverbs didn't. As I recall this had something to do with high-frequency roll-off on the analog stages of the older designs. So try taming the harshness with an lpf or shelf eq above 12khz or so. Maybe some very gentle saturation. And low end roll-off seldom hurts.
I honestly don't care for the oliverb algo at all (though hey - free reverb!). Big sky kills it. Then again I use a Bricasti so I have messed up priorities and poor impulse control.

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Post by msun » Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:13 am

The Erbe Verb is great. I used on these two album projects




But, I'm going to space abstract sounds. That said, I find myself wanting a more traditional TC kind of verb.

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anderson303
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Post by anderson303 » Sun Sep 04, 2016 1:08 am

Erbe Verb came today. I haven't owned a better reverb. Probably because it sounds closest to the detroit techno I grew up on. I guess they were using 90s budget reverbs as mentioned but it just sounds perfect to me. I used it on the lead that kicks in around 54 seconds (I wouldn't call it entirely metallic, just that electro sound I'm after):

[soundcloud url="https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/281592248" params="auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&visual=true" width="100%" height="450" iframe="true" /]
Last edited by anderson303 on Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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anderson303
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Post by anderson303 » Sun Sep 04, 2016 1:11 am

msun wrote:The Erbe Verb is great. I used on these two album projects


http://mysticalsun.bandcamp.com/album/core.
Really loving that "Core" snippet! can you elaborate on what you used to make this... And if you used any Erbe CV and how?

(Thanks)

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DougD
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Post by DougD » Sun Sep 04, 2016 2:04 am

anderson303 wrote:[soundcloud url="https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/281299309" params="auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&visual=true" width="100%" height="450" iframe="true" /]
Nice! :sb:

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Post by DohaK » Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:43 am

Only thing stops me from pulling the trigger is why there is no stereo input!
:bang:
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Post by mt3 » Sun Sep 04, 2016 6:43 am

justin3am wrote:
Infinity Curve wrote:
mt3 wrote:
dogoftears wrote:u-he zrev
it's even better
zrev?
As someone who believes Presswerk is perfectly amazing, you've aroused my curiosity.
It's very old, released in 2006.

I would recommend the Valhalla plugins, both Shimmer and Room are amazing and only $50 each
zRev and Valhalla plug-ins have very different approaches. I think they both have their place.

Valhalla plug-ins hide a lot of the complexity that is going on behind the scenes and focuses on the parameters which have the most dramatic effect. Lots of sweet spots, not many "bad" settings.

zRev exposes a lot of that complexity but is a bit ambiguous about the structure and signal flow, so it's difficult to tell how one parameter influences another. I still think this is a unique reverb plug-in with a lot of untapped potential but also a lot of potential for ugly sounds (which is something I love about it).
You've sold me on zrev.

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Post by risome » Sun Sep 04, 2016 6:49 am

DohaK wrote:Only thing stops me from pulling the trigger is why there is no stereo input!
:bang:
Lots of older rack mount verb units had 1 in two out... don't let that stop you :miley:

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Post by SB-SIX » Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:00 am

I have the erbe, bigsky and had a h9 with space algo's. The erbe is indeed unique, very dense. The space was pretty nice but the big Sky sounds way better to me. Much denser, more organic. But not the same as erbe. Especially at smaller size settings the erbe has uts own sound that cant be replicated with a space or bigsky
There is a chance you might like this: https://soundcloud.com/steeboo

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Post by stephend » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:48 pm

erbe-verb is incredible. especially the huge "unrealistic" sounds you can get for drone and atmospheric stuff. as far as pedals go, big sky and space are always mentioned, but i have yet to see the empress reverb brought up. so many different ways to use it and sounds better than both in my opinion. also if you're looking for something a little on the weirder side, industrialectric rm-1n is batshit.

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Post by wellurban » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:30 pm

I've always thought the EV sounded lush, but then I haven't used the Eventide or Strymon that people are comparing them to, so I don't have a direct comparison. Also, my yardsticks for "lush" are either 90s Aphex Twin (drowning in cheap Alesis reverb) or Eno/Lanois shimmer: neither of which are about natural spaces.

I don't really get an overly metallic impression from my EV, unless I'm using a small size parameter for that deliberate effect, in which case the crazy flanging effects and trashcan sounds are really distinctive. One of the tricks that I find useful for creating a more "organic" (for want of a better word) lushness to the reverb tail is to extrapolate the patch described in the manual that patches the CV back into the decay time. That's great for getting super-long tails that hang on the edge of self-oscillation, but if you mult that CV and patch it with various amounts of attenuversion and slew back into several CV inputs, you can get even more movement. Patching into Tilt gives lovely flutters and swells, while patching into Depth can get you tails that drift in and out of shimmer mode. Patching into Size gets crazy unless you attenuate very heavily, but if you manage to get a subtle enough setting and combine it with the other CV feedback loops, you can get some really complex evolving reverb tails that sound wonderfully lush and unique to my ears.

Then if you're up for it, try patching the CV into size and predelay simultaneously. Feed in a drum loop and you've got Autechre and Venetian Snares having a bar brawl in your rack :deadbanana:

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Post by DohaK » Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:45 pm

risome wrote:
DohaK wrote:Only thing stops me from pulling the trigger is why there is no stereo input!
:bang:
Lots of older rack mount verb units had 1 in two out... don't let that stop you :miley:
I guess you are right probably eventually will do, it sounds to good (:
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anderson303
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Post by anderson303 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:06 pm

Wow, thanks man! I copied and pasted all this in my "Patches To-Do List". Much appreciated and looks like I should maybe read the manual as well


wellurban wrote:I've always thought the EV sounded lush, but then I haven't used the Eventide or Strymon that people are comparing them to, so I don't have a direct comparison. Also, my yardsticks for "lush" are either 90s Aphex Twin (drowning in cheap Alesis reverb) or Eno/Lanois shimmer: neither of which are about natural spaces.

I don't really get an overly metallic impression from my EV, unless I'm using a small size parameter for that deliberate effect, in which case the crazy flanging effects and trashcan sounds are really distinctive. One of the tricks that I find useful for creating a more "organic" (for want of a better word) lushness to the reverb tail is to extrapolate the patch described in the manual that patches the CV back into the decay time. That's great for getting super-long tails that hang on the edge of self-oscillation, but if you mult that CV and patch it with various amounts of attenuversion and slew back into several CV inputs, you can get even more movement. Patching into Tilt gives lovely flutters and swells, while patching into Depth can get you tails that drift in and out of shimmer mode. Patching into Size gets crazy unless you attenuate very heavily, but if you manage to get a subtle enough setting and combine it with the other CV feedback loops, you can get some really complex evolving reverb tails that sound wonderfully lush and unique to my ears.

Then if you're up for it, try patching the CV into size and predelay simultaneously. Feed in a drum loop and you've got Autechre and Venetian Snares having a bar brawl in your rack :deadbanana:

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Post by tbecker » Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:39 pm

I would say the EV is the most fun reflection synth that exists. It was designed to modulate things and to be modulated in many ways and is still for me after owning it since its release, super inspiring. Does it sound like space? No. Does Space sound like the dementented space and time travel that the EV can make under a sea of CV, No! This thing sounds like your computer is reaching its CPU capacity in MAXMSP and needs to take a rest.

We could play a demo game with people that have a Space for fun: demo an interesting sound and see if the other unit can do it. I think both sides will want both!

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Post by mousegarden » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:20 am

My recommendation in Euro would be the RT60, a pretty good all round verb, or the Eventide Space if you want external, I had a Space and sold it, great sounds but lousy interface. Thinking of getting it back after listening to tracks I'd done with it!
Lexicon MPX550 is cool, great verbs for cheapo cheapo and very very flexible.

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Post by richc90 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:56 am

tbecker wrote:We could play a demo game with people that have a Space for fun: demo an interesting sound and see if the other unit can do it. I think both sides will want both!
That would be really fun!

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Erbe-Verb: Can't find comparable reverb, why so unique?

Post by chriscarter » Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:08 am

Another big fan of Space here, I use it all the time with my Eurorack, beautiful sound. Plus the added bonus that you can control some parameters via CV. I also have EV and use it a lot but they are very different sounding verbs with different feature sets.

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Post by tibbon » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:41 pm

I think the Erbe-Verb is really unique sounding because of the CV control being so responsive, and the way it builds up feels useful and not overbearing.

In contrast, the 'deeper' sounding patches on the Valhalla Z-DSP, Space, H3000, etc... sometimes just get to be too deep/muddy, but when you dial them back they just seem to go away then.

I've had: H3000, AMS 1580, Quantec Yardstick, some older Sony reverbs, various plugins, Z-DSP, Space, spring reverbs, etc... all very cool units.

The Z-DSP I like the sound of, but rarely find myself 'playing' it, and more leaving it on settings and not using much CV control there.

There's just something very immediate and 'useful' sounding about the Erbeverb. I like that you can practically 'pluck' it with the right CV controls.

Is it the 'best sounding'? No, not if you're going for a PCM-91 lush, but realistic sound. But damn, it feels quite a bit more like an instrument.

On the flipside, while it sounds amazing at the right times, I'm ditching my H3000 soon. It's cool, but the menu diving is overwhelming when I'm not mixing, and it doesn't fit my flow as well. I hate to admit it, but I just flip presets on it far too often, and never start from scratch. No fun. I like the Space in comparison because it has knobs that are so much more immediate.

I almost always keep my Space patched in somewhere with my rig (and a Timeline), but the Erbeverb gets used a ton too. I like the idea of having more 'forward' sounds and more 'background' sounds in the reverb area. I could probably use 2-3 more reverbs in total.

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