FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

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chaosick
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Re: FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

Post by chaosick » Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:06 am

tardwash wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:40 pm
I appreciate the feedback re: Cirklon vs Vector. Is anyone using the Vector with the Mutant Brain? I don’t really have the dough to shell out for the expander. I have lots of random bits around the studio that to midi to cv like an Akai Force, System 8 and OP-Z with the Oplab module.
I would really really urge you to just save up and buy both together rather than spending less and trying to come to a lesser solution. $700 for a powerful 2 track sequencer is a bit excessive, while $1000 for a super powerful 8 track sequencer including multiple lines of drum programming within a track, MIDI, Din Sync, and other stuff, that all works together internally calibrated as one device..is so so worth it and makes a bunch of other things redundant, IMO.

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Re: FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

Post by Daisuk » Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:21 am

tardwash wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:40 pm
I appreciate the feedback re: Cirklon vs Vector. Is anyone using the Vector with the Mutant Brain? I don’t really have the dough to shell out for the expander. I have lots of random bits around the studio that to midi to cv like an Akai Force, System 8 and OP-Z with the Oplab module.
I'm using it with a Shuttle Control instead of the expander, and have found it works really well for me. Depending on how many tracks you need (and how the mutant brain is configurable), I reckon you'll be fine with the mutant brain.

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Re: FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

Post by MikeLeeBirds » Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:23 am

tardwash wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:40 pm
I appreciate the feedback re: Cirklon vs Vector. Is anyone using the Vector with the Mutant Brain? I don’t really have the dough to shell out for the expander. I have lots of random bits around the studio that to midi to cv like an Akai Force, System 8 and OP-Z with the Oplab module.
I have a CV.OCD (of which the Mutant Brain is simply the modular version).
Works very well with Vector.
It’s pre-configured for two voices with velocity. Gates 5-8 will give you the drum triggers after you setup the correct midi channel (CV.OCD wants channel 10 for drums) and you have to adjust the midi notes for each drum up an octave within Vector. May sound complicated now, but you‘ll get it.

I configured the four CV channels to work with chord mode.

Today I will receive the Poly 2. Been wanting that for a long time because of its flexibility and the fact one can use Midi over USB A (host), B (device) and TRS at the same time.

Good thing about both CV.OCD and Poly 2: you only need a stereo minijack cable to connect them to Vector. I think that’s rather elegant compared to the clunky 5-pin Midi DIN.

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Re: FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

Post by OHEXOH » Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:07 am

I've noticed there's lag between the pitch and gate. This means on modules that 'snapshot' values I have to manually add a gate delay to account for that lag.

[Update - this was referring to ALM Sid Guts Deluxe and the pitch slew seems to be a problem with that module not the Vector] On Sid Guts Deluxe, the pitch ever so slightly glides between notes and to remove that I either need to add a gate delay or introduce a slight attack to the VCA to hide/minimize the note change.

What is an acceptable tolerance here? Looking at the scope it seems out by 200us which doesn't seem like a lot, but is audible when using very fast sounds and obvious on modules that snapshot. In the image below, green is pitch, blue is gate.

IMG_4975.jpg
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Last edited by OHEXOH on Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

Post by OHEXOH » Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:13 am

Running a few more tests with modules that I own - Pamela's New Workout seems to be 10us out and it's the same value for Grayscale's Permutation (to be honest, my scope won't go smaller to measure the exact amount).

So it seems that the Vector Sequencer when compared with other digital modules is way off when it comes to timing.

Real shame - I love it generally but this make me think is it worth the $ and hp. :despair:
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Re: FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

Post by yrn1 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:18 pm

I would have expected the gate to come slightly later than the pitch, which would be excellent for snapshotting modules. Could you do the measurement with the velocity output as well, because I expect something similar there too.

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Re: FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

Post by joskery » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:21 pm

EDDIIITTT: the following is *not* correct.

[To give the issue some context, I believe that with the current firmware, the Cirklon using its CVIO expander takes some 5ms to reach its target value. If I’m not mistaken, you’re talking about 0,2ms.]

EDIT: that’s not to say it isn’t giving you trouble, just that it’s not a unique flaw.
Last edited by joskery on Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:53 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

Post by Daisuk » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:22 pm

OHEXOH wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:07 am
I've noticed there's lag between the pitch and gate. This means on modules that 'snapshot' values I have to manually add a gate delay to account for that lag. On other normal modules, it means the pitch ever so slightly glides between notes and to remove that I either need to add a gate delay or introduce a slight attack to the VCA to hide/minimize the note change.

What is an acceptable tolerance here? Looking at the scope it seems out by 200us which doesn't seem like a lot, but is audible when using very fast sounds. In the image below, green is pitch, blue is gate.


IMG_4975.jpg
Report it to the Jim, maybe he can fix it. :)

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Re: FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

Post by OHEXOH » Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:16 pm

Yup - did this also.
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Re: FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

Post by OHEXOH » Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:17 pm

yrn1 wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:18 pm
I would have expected the gate to come slightly later than the pitch, which would be excellent for snapshotting modules. Could you do the measurement with the velocity output as well, because I expect something similar there too.
Velocity appears in time with the pitch also - means it's no good using it with modules like Akemies Taiko. The good thing is, the delay seems very consistent in that it's not fluctuating - so hopefully it's just a case of better aligning the gate with the pitch & velocity.

Re: Cirklon - the 5ms is a self imposed delay applied to keep up with the inherent delay in midi. From the Colin on the Cirklon forum:

"The CVIO output on Cirklon has a much higher bandwidth than MIDI.
For that reason, I chose to deliberately delay sending of the data to the CVIO until after the MIDI data had a headstart.
This is so that a MIDI receiving instrument with minimal processing latency is likely to be in closer sync with any gates being triggered on CVIO on the same tick."


Fascinating stuff.
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Re: FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

Post by Aiyn Zahev » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:59 pm

OHEXOH wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:07 am
I've noticed there's lag between the pitch and gate. This means on modules that 'snapshot' values I have to manually add a gate delay to account for that lag. On other normal modules, it means the pitch ever so slightly glides between notes and to remove that I either need to add a gate delay or introduce a slight attack to the VCA to hide/minimize the note change.

What is an acceptable tolerance here? Looking at the scope it seems out by 200us which doesn't seem like a lot, but is audible when using very fast sounds. In the image below, green is pitch, blue is gate.


IMG_4975.jpg
That’s disappointing to hear. A deal breaker for me. I hope it can be fixed.

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Re: FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

Post by miminashi » Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:16 pm

joskery wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:21 pm
To give the issue some context, I believe that with the current firmware, the Cirklon using its CVIO expander takes some 5ms to reach its target value.
I think the CVIO slew time is ~1ms as of last year, see this post. I'll try to measure it later, not sure if the overshoot fix made it into the current firmware.

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Re: FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

Post by Zymos » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:36 pm

Aiyn Zahev wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:59 pm
OHEXOH wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:07 am
I've noticed there's lag between the pitch and gate. This means on modules that 'snapshot' values I have to manually add a gate delay to account for that lag. On other normal modules, it means the pitch ever so slightly glides between notes and to remove that I either need to add a gate delay or introduce a slight attack to the VCA to hide/minimize the note change.

What is an acceptable tolerance here? Looking at the scope it seems out by 200us which doesn't seem like a lot, but is audible when using very fast sounds. In the image below, green is pitch, blue is gate.


IMG_4975.jpg
That’s disappointing to hear. A deal breaker for me. I hope it can be fixed.
In what way?
Don’t mean to minimize anyone’s problems, but loads of people have been happily using this sequencer for a while now. I don’t believe that it has any fatal flaws.

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Re: FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

Post by Sinamsis » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:49 pm

The amount of misinformation here is mind-boggling. First of all, the delay between gate and CV change is an almost universal feature of sequencers. There is always some delay/slewing between gate and changing of CV value. The only "sequencer" I know that does not is the Rossum Control Forge. For the person who says it's a deal breaker, maybe you'd be better off with that. You'd be missing a LARGE number of features, however. Otherwise, this is why most eurorack samplers have a global gate delay (thankfully Rossum recently added this to Assimil8or). There is nothing to fix. This is the nature of sequencers (and quantizers for that matter).

Regarding the Cirklon, this is more misinformation. What Colin is saying is he delayed the transmission of ALL DATA through the CVIO. Not between gate and CV. It's still the same "issue."

Otherwise I've been using mine for quite a while without any issues. To say it has issues with timing is laughable. And again damaging to a company that's putting out one of the most feature packed sequencers in euro, not to mention with a very clear and user friendly interface.

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Re: FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

Post by kesserich » Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:17 pm

OHEXOH wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:07 am
I've noticed there's lag between the pitch and gate. This means on modules that 'snapshot' values I have to manually add a gate delay to account for that lag. On other normal modules, it means the pitch ever so slightly glides between notes and to remove that I either need to add a gate delay or introduce a slight attack to the VCA to hide/minimize the note change.

What is an acceptable tolerance here? Looking at the scope it seems out by 200us which doesn't seem like a lot, but is audible when using very fast sounds. In the image below, green is pitch, blue is gate.
200 microseconds in a digital system is pretty timing. I'm not saying it can't be better but it get's difficult. A machine with a sufficiently advanced operating system -one that could guarantee a thread time slices of the cpu- running audio at 44.1k, is processing buffers of samples every 1/44,100 = 22 microseconds. And that's running at audio rate for DSP, not sequencing events.

I have a Akemie's Taiko and I love it but it's also super weird how it snapshots all of its parameters when it gets the trigger. It's the only module i have that acts in that manner. Regarding your pitch glide concern, no, you can't possible discern a pitch glide over 200 microseconds. Human perception of musical events starts at around 10 MILLIseconds which is roughly where midi fits into this.

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Re: FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

Post by miminashi » Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:07 pm

If there's 200 microseconds between the CV and gate on the Vector, then I would say it's performing very well. It's somewhat surprising that the gate precedes the CV change, but if it's an issue for people I'm sure it'll get sorted out.

Using CV to make binary decisions (like sample selection) is probably always going to be somewhat perilous. The fudge factors needed to make it work reliably (gate delays, etc.) eat into the supposed benefits to the point that I still prefer MIDI for such things.

In the interest of dispelling misinformation, I can confirm that the slew time for the Cirklon CVIO is ~1ms with the current firmware. And the gate signal is delayed until the CV has approximately reached the target value. The top trace is the CV going from 0V to 5V and the bottom is the gate, recorded via ER-301 at 96kHz.
cvio_slew.png
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Re: FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

Post by joskery » Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:51 am

Thanks for setting me straight, I did read about the upcoming fix but wasn’t aware it was in place already. Too hasty on my part!

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Re: FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

Post by Aiyn Zahev » Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:14 am

Zymos wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:36 pm
Aiyn Zahev wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:59 pm
OHEXOH wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:07 am
I've noticed there's lag between the pitch and gate. This means on modules that 'snapshot' values I have to manually add a gate delay to account for that lag. On other normal modules, it means the pitch ever so slightly glides between notes and to remove that I either need to add a gate delay or introduce a slight attack to the VCA to hide/minimize the note change.

What is an acceptable tolerance here? Looking at the scope it seems out by 200us which doesn't seem like a lot, but is audible when using very fast sounds. In the image below, green is pitch, blue is gate.


IMG_4975.jpg
That’s disappointing to hear. A deal breaker for me. I hope it can be fixed.
In what way?
Don’t mean to minimize anyone’s problems, but loads of people have been happily using this sequencer for a while now. I don’t believe that it has any fatal flaws.
If I hear glide on every note, and cannot get sharp transients because I have to add some attack. I still intend to try Vector out for myself though.

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Re: FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

Post by OHEXOH » Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:53 am

Just following up on this as there's been some discussion.

The glide problem I was having was down to the target module (ALM Sid Guts Deluxe). So that resolves that issue and I've updated my original post.

However, the fact still remains that there is (approx) a 200us delay between gate and pitch/velocity and this does affect modules which snapshot their states via a trigger. This is not misinformation and does affect modules currently in my system.

The modules that are affected are ALM Akemies Taiko, 2hp Kick & 2hp Snare. According to a user on the Five12 forum Rings is also affected. Since the 200us delay from the Vector is always consistent, I can solve this with a gate delay but if I want to use all 3 modules together then I need 3 gate delays, but it works. The other solve is to use modules like Pamela's New Workout or Permutation which appear to have much tighter CV/Gate timing - their problem is their user interface and features which pale in comparison to the Vector.

I get it, this is the world of Eurorack that we choose to play in :party:

YMMV.
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Re: FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

Post by yrn1 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:09 pm

I’m the one who reported the issue with Rings. What I see there is with the Velocity output in the Rings Brightness input. When going from high velocity (high brightness) to a note with low velocity, the Rings starts the note with high brightness and then immediately closes the brightness, resulting in a very sharp attack sound, while I wanted a very soft attack.

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Re: FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

Post by Marizu » Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:19 pm

OHEXOH wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:53 am
However, the fact still remains that there is (approx) a 200us delay between gate and pitch/velocity and this does affect modules which snapshot their states via a trigger. This is not misinformation and does affect modules currently in my system.
This is a pretty common issue within Eurorack sequencers. I have seen it in BSP, Metropolis, VG4+ (its probably in my VG8, too). The gate always seems to come before the CV. I'm not sure why they do this. It is so common that I am assuming that it is a design decision.

I came accross it when I was trying to do CV to MIDI using a Doepfer A192-2.

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Re: FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

Post by Vokx » Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:18 pm

Marizu wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:19 pm
The gate always seems to come before the CV. I'm not sure why they do this. It is so common that I am assuming that it is a design decision.
That is most likely due to the gate being controlled by an I/O pin directly and the CV by a DAC. An I/O pin is set or cleared within a few CPU clock cycles, the DAC value is usually sent via a serial protocol (SPI or I2C) which takes significantly more time. In case of multiple CV outputs, every DAC value is sent one after the other so the last in line has the longest delay.

For a programmer, the easiest approach would be: once the CV and gate values for the new step are determined, update the I/O pin and set the SPI/I2C registers in one go and be done with it. Dedicated hardware on the processor will then send the new CV value serially to the DAC. Starting a timer that interrupts the code and sets the gate after the DAC has received the update is more hassle for the programmer, but would be the best approach.

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Re: FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

Post by Vokx » Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:32 pm

I’m on the fence about the Vector Sequencer at the moment. This “issue” won’t put me off though, but it would be great if it gets fixed.

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Re: FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

Post by Aiyn Zahev » Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:41 pm

OHEXOH wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:53 am
Just following up on this as there's been some discussion.

The glide problem I was having was down to the target module (ALM Sid Guts Deluxe). So that resolves that issue and I've updated my original post.
Oh I hadn't seen that, thanks for the clarification.

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Re: FIVE12 Eurorack Vector Sequencer Teaser

Post by MikeLeeBirds » Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:12 pm

Today I received the Polyend Poly 2, thinking it might be an ideal Vector extension and to be used for other connectivity (iPad for example).

Four gate/pitch pairs and another 12 freely configurable CV outputs seemed ideal. Mono voices, chords, drums, all from Vector through one versatile module. That was the idea.

Unfortunately it cannot do that.

You can use it for four (or six) more voices, including velocity.
You can use it to output drumtriggers from Vector‘s drum mode.
You can use it to output chord pitches from chord mode.
But it can only perform one of these tasks at a time as they all require a different setup mode in Poly 2 and only one can be active at once.

Another CV to Midi interface, the CV.OCD/Mutant Brain CAN be configured to translate two mono voices with velocity or four voices (or chords) without velocity AND drum triggers at the same time. The only downside is that it has only 4 CV outputs. So it’s either mono voices or chords.

I have contacted Polyend about this and they confirmed that it’s not possible to setup the Poly 2 as I had imagined. Maybe with a stronger processor it could be done, but not with Poly 2.

Maybe this information is useful to someone.

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