Grayscale Permutation: expanded Turing Machine + Voltages

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timoka
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Post by timoka » Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:12 pm

sempervirent wrote:Sure, post a clip and I'll take a look. But the value of the Bits knob and the external CV are summed, nothing special, so I would guess that your CV source is simply trending towards the low end of the Bits range, which makes it more likely that the shift register will appear to suddenly fill up with either 0s or 1s.
sorry for the late reply, of course you were completely right, my cv source was leaning towards negative so the filling up was inevitable.
thanks again!

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Post by OHEXOH » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:49 pm

Would love it if the Clear & Write switches on the 12hp could be reconfigured to become Pause & Clock (eg via a long press). I find myself wanting to align the sequences more than I want to clear/write them.

To be able to bounce between the 2 states would be the icing on the cake of this already great module.
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Post by sempervirent » Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:24 am

timoka wrote:sorry for the late reply, of course you were completely right, my cv source was leaning towards negative so the filling up was inevitable.
OK good, glad it ended up being something simple.
OHEXOH wrote:Would love it if the Clear & Write switches on the 12hp could be reconfigured to become Pause & Clock (eg via a long press). I find myself wanting to align the sequences more than I want to clear/write them.

To be able to bounce between the 2 states would be the icing on the cake of this already great module.
Yeah, that's not really possible, the Pause/Clock switches are analog functions and not something that could be simply remapped.

But unlike the Write/Clear functions (which are internal to the module's core functionality) you could externally patch your own Pause/Clock functions. You just need two momentary switches in between two pairs of I/O jacks. I am not sure which commercially-available module might fill this role but it could even be done as a passive DIY module. For the Pause function, patch your external clock through an ON/(OFF) momentary SPDT switch. For the Clock function, patch a +5V offset into an input, and use an OFF/(ON) momentary SPDT switch to gate the offset, which would create a periodic signal.

You could optionally add an OR gate to combine the two outputs into one so that you can patch the output of both processes into the Clock input on Permutation. My old Binary module could handle the OR functions, or let you do other things like toggle between different clock sources or clock divisions.

Alternately, upgrade to the 18hp version and get everything in one module ;)

Separately, I have moved production of Permutation to my new contract manufacturer, and due to the higher production costs and the effects of our wonderful "trade war" tariffs (ahem) the costs of Permutation and Variant will be increasing. This is an unfortunate necessity, otherwise I would not be able to keep the module in production. So this weekend would be a good time to grab a module at the older price + get a Black Friday discount from your retailer of choice. Price increases will be rolling out over the next month or so.

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Re: Grayscale Permutation: expanded Turing Machine + Voltages

Post by OHEXOH » Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:54 am

Thanks for the workaround tips. :sb:
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Re: Grayscale Permutation: expanded Turing Machine + Voltages

Post by Franktree » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:55 pm

Sorry if this has been covered. I know I read that you can't add the TM Pulses expander to the 12hp or 18hp versions because they already have all the gate outs built in. But is it possible to add the Pulses expander to the 6hp version?

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Re: Grayscale Permutation: expanded Turing Machine + Voltages

Post by sempervirent » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:02 pm

No, all three versions share a common "backpack" PCB and the backpack only has the Gates header. Ironically the backpack had to be designed to fit onto the 6hp version so there was no room for extra headers. The 12hp Permutation will only be 2hp wider and does more than 6hp Permutation + Pulses so that might be an option.

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Re: Grayscale Permutation: expanded Turing Machine + Voltages

Post by Franktree » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:34 am

sempervirent wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:02 pm
No, all three versions share a common "backpack" PCB and the backpack only has the Gates header. Ironically the backpack had to be designed to fit onto the 6hp version so there was no room for extra headers. The 12hp Permutation will only be 2hp wider and does more than 6hp Permutation + Pulses so that might be an option.
Thanks for the quick response! The 12hp does seem like a good option. I think I'll miss the logic but other modules can do that, obviously.

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Re: Grayscale Permutation: expanded Turing Machine + Voltages

Post by ritec » Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:26 pm

I am thinking about getting this module for generative rhythm generation. The module will be part of a performance oriented case targeted towards Techno. I will have my normal 4 on the floor rhythm, plus hi hats being triggered by bishop’s miscellany. This is where the Grayscale Permutation would come in, I’d like to use this to trigger and SSF entity percussion module plus a VPME Quad drum module. I am thinking about getting the 12HP version.

My question is, would the Grayscale permutations be good for this type of controlled chaos?

Cheers.

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Re: Grayscale Permutation: expanded Turing Machine + Voltages

Post by sempervirent » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:47 am

ritec wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:26 pm
I am thinking about getting this module for generative rhythm generation. The module will be part of a performance oriented case targeted towards Techno. I will have my normal 4 on the floor rhythm, plus hi hats being triggered by bishop’s miscellany. This is where the Grayscale Permutation would come in, I’d like to use this to trigger and SSF entity percussion module plus a VPME Quad drum module. I am thinking about getting the 12HP version.

My question is, would the Grayscale permutations be good for this type of controlled chaos?
Sure. You can control the density of the pattern using the Clear/Write switches, lock in a sequence that you like, let it deteriorate by slowly turning the SHIFT knob or modulating it with some external CV. Or even self-patch SEQ into SHIFT so that the modulation is "random" but synced to and derived from the pulse patterns. I want to try this out myself now, haha. Maybe I'll set something up.

I think the 18hp version would actually give you more options if you want to trigger several different sounds. Of course you can always run the pulse outputs through external clock dividers, etc to get more variations out of the 12hp version.

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Re: Grayscale Permutation: expanded Turing Machine + Voltages

Post by ritec » Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:37 am

Thank you for the response.

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Re: Grayscale Permutation: expanded Turing Machine + Voltages

Post by Octognoma » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:43 am

ritec wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:26 pm
I am thinking about getting this module for generative rhythm generation. The module will be part of a performance oriented case targeted towards Techno. I will have my normal 4 on the floor rhythm, plus hi hats being triggered by bishop’s miscellany. This is where the Grayscale Permutation would come in, I’d like to use this to trigger and SSF entity percussion module plus a VPME Quad drum module. I am thinking about getting the 12HP version.

My question is, would the Grayscale permutations be good for this type of controlled chaos?

Cheers.
Im getting great results using the pulses to trigger envelopes via a seq switch.
Have not used them exclusively for drum parts yet. Literally unboxed it yesterday. Very happy with the module. Lots of scope for all sorts of stuff with this one!

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Re: Grayscale Permutation: expanded Turing Machine + Voltages

Post by radar24 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:56 pm

I bought permutation silver 18hp new from perfect circuit and i just received it. It seem it’s made in 2018 and have white buttons. I see recent ones from 2019 have black buttons. Is there any changes such as pcb revision beside button colors? Just wondering.

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Re: Grayscale Permutation: expanded Turing Machine + Voltages

Post by sempervirent » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:39 pm

Thanks for getting one. Other than the switch colors, there's no substantive difference between older and newer units.

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Re: Grayscale Permutation: expanded Turing Machine + Voltages

Post by radar24 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:20 pm

sempervirent wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:39 pm
Thanks for getting one. Other than the switch colors, there's no substantive difference between older and newer units.
Thanks! good to know

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Re: Grayscale Permutation: expanded Turing Machine + Voltages

Post by OHEXOH » Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:53 pm

I have a Permutation and Variants. One thing I've noticed from Variants is the output of POS is being affected by the output of NEG.

So for example, I have POS running into the pitch of a VCO. When I turn the small knob for NEG fully up the tones coming out of the VCO change. When I turn it down they go back. I'm sure this is not supposed to happen. :hmm:
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Re: Grayscale Permutation: expanded Turing Machine + Voltages

Post by sempervirent » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:48 am

I measure a very small difference (~0.01V which is about 1/8 of a semitone), is that in line with what you are hearing?

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Re: Grayscale Permutation: expanded Turing Machine + Voltages

Post by OHEXOH » Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:10 am

I'm not sure of the exact voltage - I had the output of POS going into a quantizer and noticed it picked a different note (1 note difference) when NEG was in either position. I'll test again when I boot up the system. :tu:
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Re: Grayscale Permutation: expanded Turing Machine + Voltages

Post by sempervirent » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:53 am

A one-note difference would make sense, if the voltage was already close to the threshold between two semitones.

When using a quantizer you could probably fine-tune the positive output of Variant to be slightly lower or higher as a workaround to keep the voltage away from that threshold, effectively canceling out the differential.

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Re: Grayscale Permutation: expanded Turing Machine + Voltages

Post by Cryosion » Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:36 am

I just picked up a used Permutation 18hp, and Variants and I was wondering how you guys use the negative outputs?

I also wanted the 18HP version so i could potentially use my metron sequencer to push gates to the write cv in, but that doesn't seem to be working. The Permutation doesn't register them at all. Is that normal? How does that CV in work exactly?
www.youtube.com/cryosion I make live improv-ish music on my modular. Sort of house-techno-bass music or something.

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Re: Grayscale Permutation: expanded Turing Machine + Voltages

Post by sempervirent » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:36 pm

Cryosion wrote:I just picked up a used Permutation 18hp, and Variants and I was wondering how you guys use the negative outputs?
Stereo panning... pseudo-compression or sidechaining using a pair of VCAs... modulating an LPF and an HPF independently to create variable-width bandpass filtering... any situation where one voltage should fall when another rises.
Cryosion wrote:I also wanted the 18HP version so i could potentially use my metron sequencer to push gates to the write cv in, but that doesn't seem to be working. The Permutation doesn't register them at all. Is that normal? How does that CV in work exactly?
It won't work like that because the gate voltage at the Write/Clear inputs has to be high before the clock signal is received. Once the state of a bit has been set (0 or 1) it can't be flipped until it circles back around to the 1st position. This is intrinsic to the way that the shift register concept works. Once the Clock input is triggered, the shift register is advanced, and the state of that bit is locked in for the duration of the looped sequence.

If the Metron's clock output and gate outputs are perfectly in sync then the gate outputs will be too "late" to flip the state of the Permutation's bits. One workaround for this is to add a system-wide clock delay (using something like the Doepfer A-162) and put that between the Metron's clock output and the Permutation's clock input. Only a few milliseconds are required to make a difference. Also I haven't used the Metron before but it seems to do just about everything so there might be some global settings you could change. You could also try using the microtiming features of the Metron to shift the gate outputs "back in time" by a few milliseconds (if that's possible) so that the Write/Clear inputs on Permutation are seeing the high voltage right before the clock input is triggered.

This is a common situation in the modular world when dealing with reset inputs, sequencers, etc but with a little tweaking you'll be able to do what you want.

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Re: Grayscale Permutation: expanded Turing Machine + Voltages

Post by sanders » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:58 pm

As always, I apologize if this has been covered:

Is there any way to inject a data input to the register, and to replace the “random” noise/comparator input?

I’m not sure if this would be functionally any different than triggering write/clear, and perhaps covered by the question/answer above.

But I’ve always wondered why a data input option isn’t brought to the front panel in this and other Turing Machine type modules?

It seems to me, with a data input (and an ability to disable certain bits), the shift register could be patched for Rungler type duties, in addition to pseudo-random sequences, no?

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Re: Grayscale Permutation: expanded Turing Machine + Voltages

Post by sempervirent » Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:23 pm

sanders wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:58 pm
As always, I apologize if this has been covered:

Is there any way to inject a data input to the register, and to replace the “random” noise/comparator input?

I’m not sure if this would be functionally any different than triggering write/clear, and perhaps covered by the question/answer above.

But I’ve always wondered why a data input option isn’t brought to the front panel in this and other Turing Machine type modules?

It seems to me, with a data input (and an ability to disable certain bits), the shift register could be patched for Rungler type duties, in addition to pseudo-random sequences, no?
I think the Write/Clear CV inputs and switches are the "data inputs" you're asking for. Since the final result of the randomization is simply a 0 or 1 there's not really a way to make this process more chaotic than what the internal white noise-based comparator already provides. It's basically a coin toss ala Mutable's Branches.

If you want to bypass the comparator you can lock the sequence and then use the Write/Clear functionality instead. As you said, you could patch random CVs into Write/Clear and achieve similar results. Although those inputs are binary/digital in terms of their states (0/1), anything can be patched there, not just triggers/gates.

Hope that answers your question. The reference to the Rungler is interesting, now I want to try cross-patching two units together...

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Re: Grayscale Permutation: expanded Turing Machine + Voltages

Post by sanders » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:52 pm

sempervirent wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:23 pm
The reference to the Rungler is interesting, now I want to try cross-patching two units together...
It’s essentially the same circuit, just a matter of patching; although the Hordjik uses a 4021, with only the last 3 bits enabled, rather than 4015.

I believe the rungler also uses a comparator in front of the data input, that is fed by one VCO, and second VCO feeds the clock. Then both VCOs get modulated by the Shift Register/DAC.

In practice though, I haven’t had great results using the Write input. Maybe it takes a bit more finesse. I’ve also thought about running a wire from the 4015 data input to a front panel jack and trying an external comparator, but I don’t wanna fry any CMOS chips.

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Re: Grayscale Permutation: expanded Turing Machine + Voltages

Post by djthopa » Sat May 02, 2020 10:27 am

Apologies if i have not spotted it, its there a diy option? Thanks!

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Re: Grayscale Permutation: expanded Turing Machine + Voltages

Post by sempervirent » Sat May 02, 2020 11:11 pm

No, not planning a DIY option for these modules.

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