SSF zero point oscilator

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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by analogPedagog » Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:47 pm

oldenjon wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:44 pm
Funky40 wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:46 pm

i stumbled just recently over a recording from timoka in the "whats your favorite non-Drum module for percussions" thread
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=188624&start=50


thats much likely the first time i heard a recording giving me the same or at least similar feels.....like what you can have from (some, or just the ZERO?) TZ-FM VCOs ( sine on sine) when focussing on patching Basses.
For example focus at the passage from sec27 to sec52......after listening to the whole ofcourse ;)
well, or just the first 25 seconds. Listen to it again and again........you hear the magic ?
you hear how the lower tones come in ? you can have even "rounder" sounding Tones with TZ-FM, yet still beening VERY Bassy.
Huh? What you are hearing on the track is Cwejman Res-4 being pinged.
I think he is just saying that the coveted sound being referred to, simply sounds like the bass tones in that piece.

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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by Funky40 » Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:01 pm

oldenjon wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:44 pm
Huh? What you are hearing on the track is Cwejman Res-4 being pinged.
the point i wanted to make was clear, no ?

....i was refering to a specific "tonality" of Tones, and NOT to what modules were doing those tones.
get the idea ?
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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by BasariStudios » Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:18 am

Artaos wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:01 pm

Thank you. Based on your answers, it seems to me that the ZPO is not capable of TZFM. For maximum clarity to other readers, "TZFM" in my posts refers to an oscillator whose frequency decreases as the frequency modulator approaches zero, then holds constant voltage as the frequency modulator is zero, and then smoothly starts oscillating in the reverse direction (reverse shape) as the frequency modulator crosses zero into negative modulation. It's a clear concept, and I share this definition of it with others. A concrete example is seen in the above oscilloscope shot.

Sound is what's important in the end. I personally enjoy the sound of that definition of TZFM. For those who don't, this whole conversation probably doesn't matter. For those who do, I hope this conversation helps. Since (as I now understand it) the ZPO is a regular oscillator core with rectifiers on the FM inputs, and a non-linear four-quadrant multiplier on the output, that is something I can patch with my current non-TZFM oscillators and the rest of my system. Whereas an analog TZFM oscillator (using the definition above) is something hard to design, and something that I am not able to patch from the modules I have, which is why I am interested in acquiring those oscillators. I expect the ZPO implementation of (non-TZ) FM followed by non-linear AM to sound more aggressive and glitchy (which seems supported by the sound demos). I am considering getting one because I like those tones as well. It is simply important to me to understand what my modules are and what they can do.

I am just trying to understand this.
ZPO can not do TZFM?
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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by analogPedagog » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:37 am

BasariStudios wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:18 am
Artaos wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:01 pm

Thank you. Based on your answers, it seems to me that the ZPO is not capable of TZFM. For maximum clarity to other readers, "TZFM" in my posts refers to an oscillator whose frequency decreases as the frequency modulator approaches zero, then holds constant voltage as the frequency modulator is zero, and then smoothly starts oscillating in the reverse direction (reverse shape) as the frequency modulator crosses zero into negative modulation. It's a clear concept, and I share this definition of it with others. A concrete example is seen in the above oscilloscope shot.

Sound is what's important in the end. I personally enjoy the sound of that definition of TZFM. For those who don't, this whole conversation probably doesn't matter. For those who do, I hope this conversation helps. Since (as I now understand it) the ZPO is a regular oscillator core with rectifiers on the FM inputs, and a non-linear four-quadrant multiplier on the output, that is something I can patch with my current non-TZFM oscillators and the rest of my system. Whereas an analog TZFM oscillator (using the definition above) is something hard to design, and something that I am not able to patch from the modules I have, which is why I am interested in acquiring those oscillators. I expect the ZPO implementation of (non-TZ) FM followed by non-linear AM to sound more aggressive and glitchy (which seems supported by the sound demos). I am considering getting one because I like those tones as well. It is simply important to me to understand what my modules are and what they can do.

I am just trying to understand this.
ZPO can not do TZFM?

i think he is just determined to discredit the tzfm implementation in the zpo because he claims “its not hard to do” and exactly like what has been done before.
Even though the sounds produced can be identical plus more.
I did explain that I experimented with all the methods, some of which would give me the credit he mentions, which by the way are were not hard to do. But as mentioned a few times, I found this technique to be more useful and offer more than a standard tzvco.

All I can say is that if that is what is important to somebody in the end, more power to them. I would like to think that someone would appreciate what a module is capable of, rather than gain some status of ownership imho.

If you read the module description, it does say that the ZPO is not a typical tzvco. So hope everyone realizes we are not trying to mislead anyone.

peripatitis

Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by peripatitis » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:45 am

Funky40 wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:46 pm
brandonlogic wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:46 am
Interesting! Do you have or know of any audio examples of what this sounds like?
...


i stumbled just recently over a recording from timoka in the "whats your favorite non-Drum module for percussions" thread
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=188624&start=50

...
A pinging maestro for sure, his work with the res4, and the mmf6 with pings and feedback is great.

As well as Brandon's btw.

I tried to "recreate" this, I am not certain if this is what you mean though..(?)
The "wooden" character was not possible here, perhaps it is more up to the extra partials the res4 can offer.

Anyway, it starts as a sine on sine and at some point the envelope scans thru the triangle and the sub to add a bit more distortion


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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by Funky40 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:42 pm

peripatitis wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:45 am
A pinging maestro for sure, his work with the res4, and the mmf6 with pings and feedback is great.
As well as Brandon's btw.
Yes, I heard from both VERY great stuff.

Your Demo has super nice tones inside ! must be the schippmann VCO ?
I can isolate single hits with my ears......i hear the potential. Its just wow !


just, to get to these tones that "I" have in mind, .....the Tones i only had with the Zero-VCO from Cynthia...and no other module so far,
would you have to think more in terms of a Bass line.
Don´t try to resemble a pinging filters line.........while it can deliver a "initial feel" for how the "tonality" should "feel".


i tryed myself yesterday with patching. No luck !
I patched with the E370, and also with the Fritz Teezer which is now back in the rack.
........ :despair: not even coming close.

my joraGen3 is now shipped, ordered one a few days back. As well as a ZPO. but i fear the ZPO is now coupled to another module that might take many months to be restocked.
Hoped to have them both at the same time. :twisted:
For sale / reduced prices ( swiss (we are NON-EU)/ in case it makes sense_ EU/WW)(CHF +- = $):
lowered prices: Dotcom Q960: 650.- / Q119: 420 / ( i also have one or much likely two 19" Frames)
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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by Funky40 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:17 pm

i had a look at the schippmann omega phi.
it seems to me that the Omgea phi is also using a rectifier.....

http://www.schippmann-music.com/downloa ... 101_EN.pdf
page 19. middle
point 8.4: the linear frequenzy modulation FM

interesting.
For sale / reduced prices ( swiss (we are NON-EU)/ in case it makes sense_ EU/WW)(CHF +- = $):
lowered prices: Dotcom Q960: 650.- / Q119: 420 / ( i also have one or much likely two 19" Frames)
ATV A-Frame incl. Accu and Bag: 830.-, like new, quasi unused.

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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by analogPedagog » Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:00 pm

Funky40 wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:17 pm
i had a look at the schippmann omega phi.
it seems to me that the Omgea phi is also using a rectifier.....

http://www.schippmann-music.com/downloa ... 101_EN.pdf
page 19. middle
point 8.4: the linear frequenzy modulation FM

interesting.
Not surprised in the least.

If someone knows that there is a more proper way to process a modulator in order to cause an oscillator to go back up and frequency once the modulator touches zero volts, very interested to hear it.

But anyways, Funky40 - I am going to post some bass-centric demos soon, using just sines. Don't know if it will touch the territory of the zeroscillator but will have something to compare to.

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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by twistedneck » Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:32 pm

joey wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:58 am
Spent a bit of time with the ZPO, and I must say it definitely is not the typical thru zero oscillator.

I think that's a good thing in a way, because we've heard those sounds a billion times by now.

This is something new and cool and special. I dig it a lot.
Me too joey, i just got a 10min demo of this at Detroit Modular and we kept hearing sounds that were hard to achieve and very unique. Was a total jam i can't wait to get one!

What happens if i use the Zero Point with a competitor TZFM osc? now you are talkin'.

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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by BasariStudios » Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:54 pm

To chime in again, i have the Rubicon 2 too, and i actually just finished a ZPO vs Rubicon 2 video and i might be getting a Gen 3 and OmegaPhi too. What i i find at least for me the Rubicon 2 has less range in TZFM, especially when you get to high frequencies the ZPO keeps going while the Rubicon 2 reverts back to its base wave and frequency.
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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by johannes » Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:06 pm

BasariStudios wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:54 pm
To chime in again, i have the Rubicon 2 too, and i actually just finished a ZPO vs Rubicon 2 video and i might be getting a Gen 3 and OmegaPhi too. What i i find at least for me the Rubicon 2 has less range in TZFM, especially when you get to high frequencies the ZPO keeps going while the Rubicon 2 reverts back to its base wave and frequency.
great. when can we expect the video? lookin forward to it

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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by BasariStudios » Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:17 pm

johannes wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:06 pm
great. when can we expect the video? lookin forward to it
Should be up by tomorrow night i think.
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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by Funky40 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:20 pm

analogPedagog wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:00 pm
But anyways, Funky40 - I am going to post some bass-centric demos soon, using just sines. Don't know if it will touch the territory of the zeroscillator but will have something to compare to.
Thats great to hear !
VERY interested to see with what sounds you´ll come up.

i think all TZ-FM VCOs sound great at high frequenzys.
But the Bass area........
I mean, we can even start just making basses based on a pure sine wave. With the right modulation is this alone allready like :love:
But then the TZ-FM on top.



To me the different user interfaces and setups play here a big role to where we had while patching......not only the technical sound capabilitys alone.
I for example could never gel with *my* Teezer (DIY), which has two 10turn pots incorporated ( my own Design decission! )
Which gives it a huge potential for precise adjustments, but is in real "patch-live" a plain f.ck to operate.
and its frequenzy setup versus how the pot handles the range feels so "unlinear". ( IMHO, unrelated to my 10turn pot)
So i allways had a superhard time to feel like i touched the sweetspots ( while the sounds as such that come out are super great. But my aim when patching is to get more out, i like to scratch on the boarders )


and it seems that you had similar intentions when you designed the ZPO......
its great, to see people taking the time to develope their own takes, ideas and visions !
Its what makes euro so exciting ;)
.....and what has me curious on the ZPO ;)
For sale / reduced prices ( swiss (we are NON-EU)/ in case it makes sense_ EU/WW)(CHF +- = $):
lowered prices: Dotcom Q960: 650.- / Q119: 420 / ( i also have one or much likely two 19" Frames)
ATV A-Frame incl. Accu and Bag: 830.-, like new, quasi unused.

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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by analogPedagog » Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:53 pm

Funky40 wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:20 pm
analogPedagog wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:00 pm
But anyways, Funky40 - I am going to post some bass-centric demos soon, using just sines. Don't know if it will touch the territory of the zeroscillator but will have something to compare to.
Thats great to hear !
VERY interested to see with what sounds you´ll come up.

i think all TZ-FM VCOs sound great at high frequenzys.
But the Bass area........
I mean, we can even start just making basses based on a pure sine wave. With the right modulation is this alone allready like :love:
But then the TZ-FM on top.



To me the different user interfaces and setups play here a big role to where we had while patching......not only the technical sound capabilitys alone.
I for example could never gel with *my* Teezer (DIY), which has two 10turn pots incorporated ( my own Design decission! )
Which gives it a huge potential for precise adjustments, but is in real "patch-live" a plain f.ck to operate.
and its frequenzy setup versus how the pot handles the range feels so "unlinear". ( IMHO, unrelated to my 10turn pot)
So i allways had a superhard time to feel like i touched the sweetspots ( while the sounds as such that come out are super great. But my aim when patching is to get more out, i like to scratch on the boarders )


and it seems that you had similar intentions when you designed the ZPO......
its great, to see people taking the time to develope their own takes, ideas and visions !
Its what makes euro so exciting ;)
.....and what has me curious on the ZPO ;)
So after a bit of noodling I did make some sounds that approached your reference but I felt that it involved some extra modulation. In the issue of fairness as far as a sound demo goes, I decided that we should just concentrate on the out of the box sounds that focus on the LF Sine modulating LF Sine aspect on the ZPO.

I find that on the ZPO the low-mid frequency sound is much more glassy or even string-like than woody. Although woody sounds are possible - its not so easy with sine/sine in my experience as far as the ZPO goes.

I wanted to keep it as simple as possible so the FM attenuator is set to maximum throughout the demo and the only changes are from the modulator fine tune and octave range, and then the Zero Point control on the ZPO. Also added some reverb because I thought it sounded really nice.

First 10 seconds are just the unaffected sine from ZPO.

ZPO is set to the bottom of the audible spectrum, modulator base frequency is roughly 50Hz.

The Zero point control is swept from CCW to CW and back throughout the demo.

~1:23 an envelope is patched into ZP CV. ZP control continues to be swept between both extremes.

~1:47 Modulator is set 1 octave up
~2:03 Modulator is set 2 octaves up

Reverb is the only additional processing.


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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by johannes » Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:16 pm

analogPedagog wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:53 pm
So after a bit of noodling I did make some sounds that approached your reference but I felt that it involved some extra modulation. In the issue of fairness as far as a sound demo goes, I decided that we should just concentrate on the out of the box sounds that focus on the LF Sine modulating LF Sine aspect on the ZPO.

I find that on the ZPO the low-mid frequency sound is much more glassy or even string-like than woody. Although woody sounds are possible - its not so easy with sine/sine in my experience as far as the ZPO goes.

I wanted to keep it as simple as possible so the FM attenuator is set to maximum throughout the demo and the only changes are from the modulator fine tune and octave range, and then the Zero Point control on the ZPO. Also added some reverb because I thought it sounded really nice.

First 10 seconds are just the unaffected sine from ZPO.

ZPO is set to the bottom of the audible spectrum, modulator base frequency is roughly 50Hz.

The Zero point control is swept from CCW to CW and back throughout the demo.

~1:23 an envelope is patched into ZP CV. ZP control continues to be swept between both extremes.

~1:47 Modulator is set 1 octave up
~2:03 Modulator is set 2 octaves up

Reverb is the only additional processing.


thanks for the demo. i like the sound!
but since the reverb makes it difficult to judge the vco characteristic i have 2 basic questions:

1. is the zpo capable to output a clean sine? without any harmonics and the like…
in your demo at the beginning there is some dirt. maybe due to the env and the verb?

2. is the zpo able to do dx7 like fm tones?
i know it was not th goal of your demo …just wondring if it is possible.

and i also wonder what modulator you use for your demo?

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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by j_dowe » Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:15 pm

Enjoying the discussion!

In the divkid video, I'm curious how to get the sound that begins playing around 28:00-28:15 (https://youtu.be/6v_c-ouRIT0?t=1679) ...? I don't have a ZPO yet (it's on my wishlist), but have other thru zero oscillators (Rubicon mk1, Dannysound EN129, Birdkids Bateleur). Is that sound something I can easily get out of most oscillators w/ FM, or is it something the ZPO can more readily achieve with its parameters?

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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by closedLoop » Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:30 pm

johannes wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:16 pm
1. is the zpo capable to output a clean sine? without any harmonics and the like…
in your demo at the beginning there is some dirt. maybe due to the env and the verb?
I'll answer this one. The straight sine output jack is clean, and when the Wave A & Wave B are set to sine, it is just as clean.

The choice to invert the sine on the A Out and the B Out makes modulating between the sine and the triangle a truly awesome sonic affair. Hats off to you, SSF. I love this beastly oscillator.

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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by BasariStudios » Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:59 pm

johannes wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:06 pm
great. when can we expect the video? lookin forward to it

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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by analogPedagog » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:26 am

johannes wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:16 pm
analogPedagog wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:53 pm
So after a bit of noodling I did make some sounds that approached your reference but I felt that it involved some extra modulation. In the issue of fairness as far as a sound demo goes, I decided that we should just concentrate on the out of the box sounds that focus on the LF Sine modulating LF Sine aspect on the ZPO.

I find that on the ZPO the low-mid frequency sound is much more glassy or even string-like than woody. Although woody sounds are possible - its not so easy with sine/sine in my experience as far as the ZPO goes.

I wanted to keep it as simple as possible so the FM attenuator is set to maximum throughout the demo and the only changes are from the modulator fine tune and octave range, and then the Zero Point control on the ZPO. Also added some reverb because I thought it sounded really nice.

First 10 seconds are just the unaffected sine from ZPO.

ZPO is set to the bottom of the audible spectrum, modulator base frequency is roughly 50Hz.

The Zero point control is swept from CCW to CW and back throughout the demo.

~1:23 an envelope is patched into ZP CV. ZP control continues to be swept between both extremes.

~1:47 Modulator is set 1 octave up
~2:03 Modulator is set 2 octaves up

Reverb is the only additional processing.


thanks for the demo. i like the sound!
but since the reverb makes it difficult to judge the vco characteristic i have 2 basic questions:

1. is the zpo capable to output a clean sine? without any harmonics and the like…
in your demo at the beginning there is some dirt. maybe due to the env and the verb?

2. is the zpo able to do dx7 like fm tones?
i know it was not th goal of your demo …just wondring if it is possible.

and i also wonder what modulator you use for your demo?
1. saw this was answered above by closedLoop.

2. I really don't know as I have not compared the two.

- Modulator is the SSF/WMD Spectrum in all the audio demos

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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by analogPedagog » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:27 am

closedLoop wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:30 pm

The choice to invert the sine on the A Out and the B Out makes modulating between the sine and the triangle a truly awesome sonic affair. Hats off to you, SSF. I love this beastly oscillator.
Thank you, really happy to know you are enjoying that feature!

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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by Artaos » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:25 pm

BasariStudios wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:18 am
Artaos wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:01 pm

Thank you. Based on your answers, it seems to me that the ZPO is not capable of TZFM. For maximum clarity to other readers, "TZFM" in my posts refers to an oscillator whose frequency decreases as the frequency modulator approaches zero, then holds constant voltage as the frequency modulator is zero, and then smoothly starts oscillating in the reverse direction (reverse shape) as the frequency modulator crosses zero into negative modulation. It's a clear concept, and I share this definition of it with others. A concrete example is seen in the above oscilloscope shot.

Sound is what's important in the end. I personally enjoy the sound of that definition of TZFM. For those who don't, this whole conversation probably doesn't matter. For those who do, I hope this conversation helps. Since (as I now understand it) the ZPO is a regular oscillator core with rectifiers on the FM inputs, and a non-linear four-quadrant multiplier on the output, that is something I can patch with my current non-TZFM oscillators and the rest of my system. Whereas an analog TZFM oscillator (using the definition above) is something hard to design, and something that I am not able to patch from the modules I have, which is why I am interested in acquiring those oscillators. I expect the ZPO implementation of (non-TZ) FM followed by non-linear AM to sound more aggressive and glitchy (which seems supported by the sound demos). I am considering getting one because I like those tones as well. It is simply important to me to understand what my modules are and what they can do.

I am just trying to understand this.
ZPO can not do TZFM?
It depends on what you mean by TZFM. According to the definition of TZFM that I use, it seems that it can’t. According to the designer (who uses another definition, or rather a twist on it), it can. Does it matter? It’s not a good or bad thing, it’s just different. What the ZPO does, I would call (rectified) frequency modulation followed by non-linear bipolar amplitude modulation, as far as I understand.

Using the definition that I use (frequency reduces close to zero, then the wave smoothly inverses into the reverse direction as the modulator crosses below zero), a ramp wave carrier TZFM’d by a triangle modulator should produce exactly the wave shown in the oscilloscope before in this thread. The ZPO uses a bipolar VCA to inverse the wave, which means it wouldn’t produce the wave shown (there would be an additional zero crossing when the modulator crosses zero, and different timbres). Try with your ZPO, can you reproduce that TZFM wave? Probably not.

At the end of the day, it’s a terminology thing. I think the ZPO is very cool, and offers a large feature set in a coherent package. It’s on my wishlist. The onboard rectifiers, crossfaders, and bipolar VCA is a unique combination, and would require a lot of additional patching to achieve with a “regular” oscillator.

I’m frankly grateful for SSF as a designer and for them pushing the envelope (I have and love a few of their modules). I just have a curious urge to understand what circuits and modules do.

peripatitis

Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by peripatitis » Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:01 pm

Artaos wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:25 pm
BasariStudios wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:18 am
Artaos wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:01 pm

Thank you. Based on your answers, it seems to me that the ZPO is not capable of TZFM. For maximum clarity to other readers, "TZFM" in my posts refers to an oscillator whose frequency decreases as the frequency modulator approaches zero, then holds constant voltage as the frequency modulator is zero, and then smoothly starts oscillating in the reverse direction (reverse shape) as the frequency modulator crosses zero into negative modulation. It's a clear concept, and I share this definition of it with others. A concrete example is seen in the above oscilloscope shot.

Sound is what's important in the end. I personally enjoy the sound of that definition of TZFM. For those who don't, this whole conversation probably doesn't matter. For those who do, I hope this conversation helps. Since (as I now understand it) the ZPO is a regular oscillator core with rectifiers on the FM inputs, and a non-linear four-quadrant multiplier on the output, that is something I can patch with my current non-TZFM oscillators and the rest of my system. Whereas an analog TZFM oscillator (using the definition above) is something hard to design, and something that I am not able to patch from the modules I have, which is why I am interested in acquiring those oscillators. I expect the ZPO implementation of (non-TZ) FM followed by non-linear AM to sound more aggressive and glitchy (which seems supported by the sound demos). I am considering getting one because I like those tones as well. It is simply important to me to understand what my modules are and what they can do.

I am just trying to understand this.
ZPO can not do TZFM?
It depends on what you mean by TZFM. According to the definition of TZFM that I use, it seems that it can’t. According to the designer (who uses another definition, or rather a twist on it), it can. Does it matter? It’s not a good or bad thing, it’s just different. What the ZPO does, I would call (rectified) frequency modulation followed by non-linear bipolar amplitude modulation, as far as I understand.

Using the definition that I use (frequency reduces close to zero, then the wave smoothly inverses into the reverse direction as the modulator crosses below zero), a ramp wave carrier TZFM’d by a triangle modulator should produce exactly the wave shown in the oscilloscope before in this thread. The ZPO uses a bipolar VCA to inverse the wave, which means it wouldn’t produce the wave shown (there would be an additional zero crossing when the modulator crosses zero, and different timbres). Try with your ZPO, can you reproduce that TZFM wave? Probably not.

At the end of the day, it’s a terminology thing. I think the ZPO is very cool, and offers a large feature set in a coherent package. It’s on my wishlist. The onboard rectifiers, crossfaders, and bipolar VCA is a unique combination, and would require a lot of additional patching to achieve with a “regular” oscillator.

I’m frankly grateful for SSF as a designer and for them pushing the envelope (I have and love a few of their modules). I just have a curious urge to understand what circuits and modules do.
But is there such a thru-zero design that you mention? I wonder?
I mean Schippmann's omega which for me to-date has the purest sine I've heard on a module also uses a rectifier.

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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by analogPedagog » Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:43 pm

Alight everyone - I think its obvious that the ZPO is not the same as a standard TZVCO. That does not mean it is incapable of doing what is being defined as real TZFM. It can, but with some differences and these differences are central to the sounds it will produce.

So yes, in the case of the normal SAW out, the transition is not always smooth - this isn't because the ZPO is not capable of it, it is because of the wave shaping circuitry for the fundamental sawtooth output. Which I mentioned produces a half amplitude square at the ZP apex. And this is responsible for the different harmonics and sounds gained by this design for the normal sawtoot output.

However, if you still think that means it is incapable of producing the smooth transition with a saw, the upsaw is a different wave shaper and does not produce this square shape at the apex. It is still different but it absolutely can produce the smooth transition as you can see in the image below.
So, I don't think we can say that the ZPO is incapable of performing TZFM, but it is different and that's 100% the point.
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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by ari ellis » Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:07 pm

analogPedagog wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:43 pm
Alight everyone - I think its obvious that the ZPO is not the same as a standard TZVCO. That does not mean it is incapable of doing what is being defined as real TZFM. It can, but with some differences and these differences are central to the sounds it will produce.

So yes, in the case of the normal SAW out, the transition is not always smooth - this isn't because the ZPO is not capable of it, it is because of the wave shaping circuitry for the fundamental sawtooth output. Which I mentioned produces a half amplitude square at the ZP apex. And this is responsible for the different harmonics and sounds gained by this design for the normal sawtoot output.

However, if you still think that means it is incapable of producing the smooth transition with a saw, the upsaw is a different wave shaper and does not produce this square shape at the apex. It is still different but it absolutely can produce the smooth transition as you can see in the image below.
So, I don't think we can say that the ZPO is incapable of performing TZFM, but it is different and that's 100% the point.
On a technical level, I still maintain that the ZPO is indeed incapable of performing "real" TZFM, since by my (mathematical) definition, TZFM necessarily involves reducing the frequency of the carrier on negative portions of the modulator cycle (until it hits zero and goes through of course). The ZPO never goes through zero, because the modulator never decreases the frequency at all (when set to TZ-MOD at least).

But like I said earlier in the thread, this is a pedantic distinction of terminology. Musically speaking, the range of tones produced by the ZPO includes some that are very similar to what "real" TZFM would produce, and its unique operating principle gives it its very own sound. IMO trying to label what the ZPO does as "TZFM" does the ZPO a disservice, because it invites the type of technical comparisons made in this thread, while in truth the ZPO really is doing its own thing and ought not need defending in such comparisons. For example, modulating the zero point control can do something *sonically* similar to modulating the index in "true" TZFM, but with rock-solid tuning stability that is very difficult to achieve when performing dynamic "true" TZFM. For every situation I can imagine where "true TZFM" would be better for my needs, I can think of another situation where the ZPO would be a superior choice of tool.

TL;DR: For those of us who are sticklers for terminology, the ZPO cannot perform "true" TZFM, but rather uses a novel modulation technique inspired by TZFM. For those of us who just care about sound, the ZPO can create tones that are quite similar to "true" TZFM, but with its own flavour that you won't find elsewhere, as well as other things that "true" TZFM oscillators cannot accomplish. Everyone use your ears, and this will all work out :tu:

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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by analogPedagog » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:01 pm

ari ellis wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:07 pm
analogPedagog wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:43 pm
Alight everyone - I think its obvious that the ZPO is not the same as a standard TZVCO. That does not mean it is incapable of doing what is being defined as real TZFM. It can, but with some differences and these differences are central to the sounds it will produce.

So yes, in the case of the normal SAW out, the transition is not always smooth - this isn't because the ZPO is not capable of it, it is because of the wave shaping circuitry for the fundamental sawtooth output. Which I mentioned produces a half amplitude square at the ZP apex. And this is responsible for the different harmonics and sounds gained by this design for the normal sawtoot output.

However, if you still think that means it is incapable of producing the smooth transition with a saw, the upsaw is a different wave shaper and does not produce this square shape at the apex. It is still different but it absolutely can produce the smooth transition as you can see in the image below.
So, I don't think we can say that the ZPO is incapable of performing TZFM, but it is different and that's 100% the point.
On a technical level, I still maintain that the ZPO is indeed incapable of performing "real" TZFM, since by my (mathematical) definition, TZFM necessarily involves reducing the frequency of the carrier on negative portions of the modulator cycle (until it hits zero and goes through of course). The ZPO never goes through zero, because the modulator never decreases the frequency at all (when set to TZ-MOD at least).

But like I said earlier in the thread, this is a pedantic distinction of terminology. Musically speaking, the range of tones produced by the ZPO includes some that are very similar to what "real" TZFM would produce, and its unique operating principle gives it its very own sound. IMO trying to label what the ZPO does as "TZFM" does the ZPO a disservice, because it invites the type of technical comparisons made in this thread, while in truth the ZPO really is doing its own thing and ought not need defending in such comparisons. For example, modulating the zero point control can do something *sonically* similar to modulating the index in "true" TZFM, but with rock-solid tuning stability that is very difficult to achieve when performing dynamic "true" TZFM. For every situation I can imagine where "true TZFM" would be better for my needs, I can think of another situation where the ZPO would be a superior choice of tool.

TL;DR: For those of us who are sticklers for terminology, the ZPO cannot perform "true" TZFM, but rather uses a novel modulation technique inspired by TZFM. For those of us who just care about sound, the ZPO can create tones that are quite similar to "true" TZFM, but with its own flavour that you won't find elsewhere, as well as other things that "true" TZFM oscillators cannot accomplish. Everyone use your ears, and this will all work out :tu:
Definitely hit the nail on the head here.

You do make a good point about TZFM in general.

But then I wonder; which analog TZVCO meets the true mathematical definition of "real" TZFM?
You have to ask the question; Do any really go to 0Hz or is this just an analogous effect that occurs when the VCO core reverses direction?
My point is that the pioneers of TZFM knew the physical implementation was not exactly a 1:1 with the math. But they engineered a design that produced the same effect as if it actually did.
We have not even touched on the fact that the math involves negative frequencies...

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