SSF zero point oscilator

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Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by Dr. Sketch-n-Etch » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:27 pm

EDIT: Post moved to a different thread.
Last edited by Dr. Sketch-n-Etch on Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by Funky40 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:36 pm

first: thanks to the demo at analog pedagog and basari studios !

second: i found and still find this whole TZFM point and discussion *VERY* interesting.
I´m myself not a tech guy, ...i just make music dealing with tones......(i even don´t "produce" finally )

this discussion and facts on the table had me also thinking that the ZPO is not a real TZFM VCO.
But this has reversed again.
Now i think its even not excatly defined..........

One aspect of the whole thing might be: can the VCO go down to 0Hz ?
and: can the VCO be manually set to a initial frequenzy of 0Hz / 0V ?
This "has" an influence when its up to understand the TZFM operation *and* how for example the "initial frequenzy setup" interacts with the tracking.
( that was at least one of the points of the discussions ( and things that have been figured out) back in the day when the Fritz Teezer has hit the DIY scene/market and was opening up big discussions on the TZ-FM subject back then )


But if its all about making music ?
thats an entirely different thing to me now.


i watched Basary studios new demo, the comparison to the rubicon.
personally i´m under the impression that i absolutely see the TZFM typical waveforms on the scope vs. ZPO.
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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by BasariStudios » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:39 pm

Thanks David, you make an interesting point except this is a ZPO and not a Rubicon 2 Thread.
I don't wanna be dragged down with this, i have nothing to do with anything. I paid for 2 VCOs
which do similar thing and as i stated in the beginning of the Video i hold the right to my
opinion, preference and way of using things. I do not know numbers but trust me, I KNOW
Dials and Sounds when i touch them and hear them.

Thanks
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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by BasariStudios » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:40 pm

Funky40 wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:36 pm
I´m myself not a tech guy, ...i just make music dealing with tones......(i even don´t "produce" finally
Thank you very much, that's also me, do not ask me about numbers and terminologies
but when i start listening and turning dials then it is a different story.
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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by ari ellis » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:51 pm

analogPedagog wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:01 pm
ari ellis wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:07 pm
analogPedagog wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:43 pm
Alight everyone - I think its obvious that the ZPO is not the same as a standard TZVCO. That does not mean it is incapable of doing what is being defined as real TZFM. It can, but with some differences and these differences are central to the sounds it will produce.

So yes, in the case of the normal SAW out, the transition is not always smooth - this isn't because the ZPO is not capable of it, it is because of the wave shaping circuitry for the fundamental sawtooth output. Which I mentioned produces a half amplitude square at the ZP apex. And this is responsible for the different harmonics and sounds gained by this design for the normal sawtoot output.

However, if you still think that means it is incapable of producing the smooth transition with a saw, the upsaw is a different wave shaper and does not produce this square shape at the apex. It is still different but it absolutely can produce the smooth transition as you can see in the image below.
So, I don't think we can say that the ZPO is incapable of performing TZFM, but it is different and that's 100% the point.
On a technical level, I still maintain that the ZPO is indeed incapable of performing "real" TZFM, since by my (mathematical) definition, TZFM necessarily involves reducing the frequency of the carrier on negative portions of the modulator cycle (until it hits zero and goes through of course). The ZPO never goes through zero, because the modulator never decreases the frequency at all (when set to TZ-MOD at least).

But like I said earlier in the thread, this is a pedantic distinction of terminology. Musically speaking, the range of tones produced by the ZPO includes some that are very similar to what "real" TZFM would produce, and its unique operating principle gives it its very own sound. IMO trying to label what the ZPO does as "TZFM" does the ZPO a disservice, because it invites the type of technical comparisons made in this thread, while in truth the ZPO really is doing its own thing and ought not need defending in such comparisons. For example, modulating the zero point control can do something *sonically* similar to modulating the index in "true" TZFM, but with rock-solid tuning stability that is very difficult to achieve when performing dynamic "true" TZFM. For every situation I can imagine where "true TZFM" would be better for my needs, I can think of another situation where the ZPO would be a superior choice of tool.

TL;DR: For those of us who are sticklers for terminology, the ZPO cannot perform "true" TZFM, but rather uses a novel modulation technique inspired by TZFM. For those of us who just care about sound, the ZPO can create tones that are quite similar to "true" TZFM, but with its own flavour that you won't find elsewhere, as well as other things that "true" TZFM oscillators cannot accomplish. Everyone use your ears, and this will all work out :tu:
Definitely hit the nail on the head here.

You do make a good point about TZFM in general.

But then I wonder; which analog TZVCO meets the true mathematical definition of "real" TZFM?
You have to ask the question; Do any really go to 0Hz or is this just an analogous effect that occurs when the VCO core reverses direction?
My point is that the pioneers of TZFM knew the physical implementation was not exactly a 1:1 with the math. But they engineered a design that produced the same effect as if it actually did.
We have not even touched on the fact that the math involves negative frequencies...
While I haven't looked into the Rubicon 2 design in detail (I wonder if Doc Sketch-n-Etch would dare pop into this thread? EDIT: Look at that, he did while I was typing this reply!), I will say that as far as I can tell, mine does do what I'm calling "true" TZFM; for example, if I use a sub-audio-range modulator, I can hear the frequency wobble around, both above *and below* its initial value, and once the index is high enough I can hear it drop below the lower limit of hearing on its negative excursions, eventually popping back up "through zero." And when the symmetry control is close to top-dead-centre, the resting frequency of the oscillator can be extremely, extremely low (e.g. significantly less than 1 Hz).

My guess (and it is a totally naive guess!) is that the Rubicon's design involves reversing the current feeding an integrator when the modulation input is sufficiently negative (with the definition of "sufficiently negative" determined by the index and symmetry controls). This would take care of the "negative frequency" issue, as the integrator would be fed a vanishingly small current as the oscillator is asked to produce a smaller and smaller frequency, and when asked to produce negative frequencies, this current would simply cross through zero to a negative value. This would be a direct physical implementation of the "negative frequency" concept. I doubt that it would be practical to ever have the oscillator sitting *exactly* at zero, but this is just a philosophical problem of physics in general --- it is in general not empirically accurate to say that *any* value of *any* physical quantity is *exactly* equal to anything.

So, to others reading, if you want to approach the mathematical ideal of TZFM as closely as you can, then get a rubicon, set the symmetry away from its extreme values (or lock it), and get on with your day. But mathematical ideals are a weird way to make purchasing decisions about musical instruments. If you listen to a Rubicon and to a ZPO, it will probably become pretty obvious to you which flavour of modulation you prefer. They are quite different instruments, and both have extremely wide ranges. (I also happen to think that these two together would make quite a terrifying complex oscillator :twisted:).

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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by Dr. Sketch-n-Etch » Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:33 pm

Hello ari ellis,

I did respond in this thread, but I have since moved my response to the thread just about the video, because it was pointed out to me (quite rightly, I fear) that it is not necessarily very good etiquette for a designer to make critical comments about other people's designs on their own company threads. For that lack of etiquette I apologize.

Concerning the relative virtues or desirability of the Rubicon vs the ZPO, I have no official or unofficial opinion. In fact, the first 8 minutes of BasariStudios's video is the only time in my life that I have heard the ZPO, so I'm not at all qualified to judge its musical merits.

However, my beef comes from the definition of through-zero FM. This is quite simply a certain thing. It's not up for conjecture or creative marketing. It is simply just one thing, and a VCO either does it or it doesn't. You don't even have to like it. Maybe you hate it. It doesn't matter! It simply is what it is. The Zeroscillator did it. The Rubicon does it. There may be one or two other VCOs that do it (I don't really know).

There is a certain "tell" about TZFM when looking at an oscilloscope output. Every so often, you will see what look like semicircles when the oscillator changes direction. This happens on the "Rubicon" scope trace very clearly at exactly 6:41 in the video -- there are about four clear changes of direction on the scope trace at this time, and this is the "look" of TZFM. On the other hand, if you look at the "ZPO" scope trace at, say, 7:18 in the video, you will see a succession of little beads across the scope. This is the "look" of balanced AM. If a triangle wave is used as the modulator, then you get little diamonds. It really couldn't be more clear.
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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by Dr. Sketch-n-Etch » Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:42 pm

Also, at the risk of belabouring the point just a little bit, I wanted to respond to the comment about the Rubicon and "true TZFM".

The Rubicon achieves true TZFM. There is no post-VCO inversion of the waveform. Indeed, no waveshaping is required at all. The linear FM can and does go smoothly through zero frequency. When this occurs, the triangle from the core integrator is inverted going into the core comparator, so that the comparator doesn't get stuck at the rail. However, this switching does nothing to the output waveform itself. Indeed, the switching occurs when the comparator is between switching states, and all it does is changes the threshold at which the comparator will ultimately switch when the triangle waveform ultimately reaches +5V or -5V. You cannot detect any sort of glitch at the through-zero crossing because there is none to detect. As long as the modulating waveform is smooth through zero (like a sine or triangle), then the through-zero modulation will be smooth -- it doesn't stick at zero or have to wait for something else to happen. There is no "trick". I'd explain how it all actually works (it's deceptively simple), but then I'd have to hunt you all down and kill you, and that's just too much trouble.
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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by BasariStudios » Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:45 pm

ari ellis wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:51 pm
(I also happen to think that these two together would make quite a terrifying complex oscillator :twisted:).
I love the 2 of them how they interact with each other, there is no better Combo.
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:33 pm
However, my beef comes from the definition of through-zero FM.
Please do realize i did not and do not define what TZFM is, i am just an end user and thats all.
What i said in the video i stand by and if i had to do it again i would do it exactly the same
and not change anything at all. I just do not wanna be associated with terminologies, i am not
a designer, that is yours, Intellijel, SSF and other's job. I paid for 2 VCOs that were to me
advertised as TZFM, i found similarities and comparabilities and did so and will do it again.
I do not or did not misrepresent anything. I clearly stated in the video and welcomed the
developers to correct me but not associate me with anything. I might not know what defines
TZFM but i DO know VERY WELL what sounds good to me and know how to use it.

A Swimmer might not know AeroDynamics but for sure will know how to NOT drown and save him self.

I do thank You for all of your designs, they are a lot of fun in my life, especially Rubicon 2 now.
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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by Artaos » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:11 pm

peripatitis wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:01 pm
But is there such a thru-zero design that you mention? I wonder?
I mean Schippmann's omega which for me to-date has the purest sine I've heard on a module also uses a rectifier.
Yes, the oscilloscope picture that I shared earlier is from an analog TZFM oscillator. A rectifier on the FM inputs is compatible with that definition. (Most do that.) The point of difference is specifically about how the wave “reversal” is achieved. That is not the job of the FM input rectifier. In the ZPO it is the job of the balanced AM (“zero point” VCA). Other oscillators do other things. And the results are not exactly the same AFAICT. I hope that answers your question. This is my non-circuit-designer understanding.

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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by Funky40 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:26 pm

I find the technical discussions to which this VCO has lead now *very* interesting.


from a musical making standpoint,
and as a person who has seen *alots* of modules in his rig, and as somebody who is *exclusively* "experimenting" when doing music,
...at least with my electronic Musical endevours ( while the others have stopped years ago),
can i say that several of the aspects discussed here, are *very relative* versus the given musical or even better expressed: "personal" usefullness of a module.


personally i´m *very* thankful for all the people who put their effort and time into developing new Tools for us.
And its obvious that "analogpedagog", running SSF, was with MUCH effort behind his development of the ZPO.


i can definitly say that technical aspects are one thing.
BUT: module concepts as such play mostoften an as much important role ......versus to where we will get with a Module.


but i agree, some juggling with terms and wordings look quite like ......lets say it so: not the luckiest of all moves ;)
And i agree: the basaristudio Video had some unlucky moments too versus his wordings.




i definitly think, we need a own -new- TZFM-VCO thread !

totally NOT related to any module, but all of them
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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by ari ellis » Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:46 pm

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:33 pm
Hello ari ellis,

...

However, my beef comes from the definition of through-zero FM. This is quite simply a certain thing. It's not up for conjecture or creative marketing. It is simply just one thing, and a VCO either does it or it doesn't. You don't even have to like it. Maybe you hate it. It doesn't matter! It simply is what it is. The Zeroscillator did it. The Rubicon does it. There may be one or two other VCOs that do it (I don't really know).

...
Hey Doc! Just wanted to say that this is essentially the point I've been trying to get at in my comments in this thread, while still giving the ZPO credit for its new ideas. TZFM ought to mean TZFM.

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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by analogPedagog » Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:10 am

ari ellis wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:46 pm
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:33 pm
Hello ari ellis,

...

However, my beef comes from the definition of through-zero FM. This is quite simply a certain thing. It's not up for conjecture or creative marketing. It is simply just one thing, and a VCO either does it or it doesn't. You don't even have to like it. Maybe you hate it. It doesn't matter! It simply is what it is. The Zeroscillator did it. The Rubicon does it. There may be one or two other VCOs that do it (I don't really know).

...
Hey Doc! Just wanted to say that this is essentially the point I've been trying to get at in my comments in this thread, while still giving the ZPO credit for its new ideas. TZFM ought to mean TZFM.
You have a point except that it is clear in the description that it is not a typical TZVCO and employs different functioning and is not the same as a normal TZVCO. It clearly states that it employs a fusion of TZ AM/FM components for the stated reasons that it can produce additional tones and offers stability where TZVCOs can fall short.
You have not commented on the picture I posted previously, showing what you are stating that the ZPO is incapable of doing, so there is another image below to compare to and you can see that the output is producing the 'semi-circles' while not 'exactly' the same as a normal TZVCO, this is to be expected because it is a FUSION of multiple elements. At low freq modulation it is far more of an AM effect than a TZFM affect and this is to be expected via this implementation. All designs have trade-offs and benefits.

I will try to be diligent in changing any TZFM terminology to TZ-MOD as not to offend anyone any further.

There are plenty of great choices and more coming out if you want a standard TZVCO. The ZPO is meant to offer something different and IMHO enhanced capability overall while also having capabilities that cross over in the sounds it can produce, compared to a normal TZVCO.
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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by Funky40 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:42 am



the sound from 39:00 on,
the description to it from 39:10 on.

----> noise into V/oct and PWM


There are VCOs out there that have their own specialities.
My guess is that this one has.
sounds better than a.........ahhh wait, i need first to sell it, haha.
For sale / reduced prices ( swiss (we are NON-EU)/ in case it makes sense_ EU/WW)(CHF +- = $):
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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by oudplayer » Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:59 pm

Curious if anyone might know when these might be back in stock at Control or Perfect Circuit... would this be contingent on a 2nd production run?

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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by miles_macquarrie » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:05 am

Are there any plans for a manual and/or patch examples any time soon? I have had the ZPO for about a week and I've found this thread very interesting. I would love to know what I'm doing or how to get to the inner magic that is inside this well designed module that takes a different approach to TZFM
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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by BasariStudios » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:13 am

miles_macquarrie wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:05 am
Are there any plans for a manual and/or patch examples any time soon? I have had the ZPO for about a week and I've found this thread very interesting. I would love to know what I'm doing or how to get to the inner magic that is inside this well designed module that takes a different approach to TZFM
You can find a lot of the details on how to do things in my tutorial Videos
and soon i will be releasing a series of Patch Videos with no talk.
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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by miles_macquarrie » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:18 am

I will check those out, thanks
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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by BasariStudios » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:54 am

Delete...
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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by BasariStudios » Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:43 pm

Here are some new ZPO Jams, a series of 3 Videos:

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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by ToddOMG » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:10 pm

Any good youtube videos out there to demonstrate exactly what 'zero point' means and does in a VCO?

I understand that in FM modulation it means you can go negative, 'through the zero' literally, but I'm not sure what that exactly means in practical or musical terms.

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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by NoLegs » Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:24 pm

Just some chilled out ZPO/Dipole/URA and Mimeophone.


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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by BasariStudios » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:42 pm

ToddOMG wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:10 pm
Any good youtube videos out there to demonstrate exactly what 'zero point' means and does in a VCO
There is actually tons of Infos and Videos.
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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by LunaticSound » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:00 am

Experimenting today, I found that setting the ZPOs Frequency as high as possible and then FMing it with TZ-Mod enabled (I think, it was Linear FM), there is a point where the carriers Freq suddenly comes back in a nicely waveshaped gnarly fashion.

Started a little drum and Bass thing with it.

In case you are interested:



Sorry for the crappy camera, I had to go off to work. Don't watch it, if you are offended by mobile phone recordings off Modulars, please. 8-)

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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by joey » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:33 am

ZPO on some thicc bass here


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Re: SSF zero point oscilator

Post by twistedneck » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:06 pm

LunaticSound wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:00 am
Experimenting today, I found that setting the ZPOs Frequency as high as possible and then FMing it with TZ-Mod enabled (I think, it was Linear FM), there is a point where the carriers Freq suddenly comes back in a nicely waveshaped gnarly fashion.

Started a little drum and Bass thing with it.

In case you are interested:



Sorry for the crappy camera, I had to go off to work. Don't watch it, if you are offended by mobile phone recordings off Modulars, please. 8-)
LunaticSound that sounds Mean! and made me instantly think about some sort of Amen Break drums you have there?? wtf was that awesome wa wa going on?? killer.

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