WaveEdit Online - E352/E370 wavetable bank sharing

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dooj88
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Post by dooj88 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:26 pm

starthief wrote:The module is (I assume) not reading long filenames and spitting out the 8.3 format; those names are created by your OS when the files are written. Originally that was for backward compatibility with DOS, but it continues to be a part of the file system standard.

I saw something online aabout microcontrollers not natively supporting long filenames because it requires paying royalties to Microsoft... not sure if true.

The point is, displaying long filenames isn't as trivial as it seems like it should be. 8.3 is the default, minimal fuss version.

mdoudoroff wrote:The number of E352/E370 customers who want to sit around manually renaming and organizing 100+ bank files is zero.
I manually organize and rename as necessary to make them legible. I also audition every bank (on the module itself so I can try Cloud mode, different kinds of modulation etc.) and cull a lot of them. I have kept about two dozen WaveEdit online banks that aren't mine, and a roughly equal number of banks I've created (I haven't posted my converted Serum or Massive banks).

(And this is going off on a tangent, but I'll probably use about 1/3 of what I've kept, though some of them are staples that I keep going back to. I think of a big library of samples, banks etc. as a supermarket with lots of variety -- it's nice having a choice of 11 different kinds of tortilla chips but I'm going to settle on one or two favorites.)
i am doing this as well. do i like it? no. but i thought in the meantime before there are potentially hundreds online to choose from, it's fine. i'll probably remember which i've got...?

but when it comes to manually sorting files after batch downloading, you'll never know which are duplicates unless you keep detailed notes on what filenames you've changed. that's my issue. i have a limited time to make music, and i don't want to spend it managing sample libraries.

obviously exploring new content as there is more and more available is difficult no matter the medium. but it's much harder when the computer is unable to inform you when you've already downloaded something because you changed the filename to be able to decipher it in the module.

i respect the amount of work that would have to go into reworking the code and not upset that you wouldn't want to tackle it. pros don't outweigh the cons here.. but you can see how an advertised feature would become a pain to manage.

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Post by Funky40 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:23 pm

mdoudoroff wrote: I can try to write an algorithm to generate better filenames. That will only get us so far, but it wouldn’t be nothing.
The thoughts that strive me:

you could write some algorithm that would manage the filenames on that online app ?
ok, then how about this:
whatever the original filename is, the software could/should take capital letters and numbers at first place.
the filename: "This1_Is2_Much4_Me" would turn to: "T1I2M4M"
and if names are too long, rate the last numbers (in series) with highest priority, and the first numbers ( in series ) second highest. ...just to give a possible example.


My point: this (example) situation would lead to clear rules so that the user could name his files accordingly to help upfront that a automatic renaming could work out and things would become managable ---> by having a printed out sheet.
So, to get a printed out sheet with original and edited name nicely arranged would be the main aspect of this idea !

the filename: "thisisCrappywavefile_E124" would turn: CE124.
with such sheme is a intelligent naming -in regards to a automatic shortening- possible. I could read CE124 in regards to my own naming conventions ;) while giving so others at least a good chance to get a .wav with a name that is distinguishable from other .wav .



( to take it further ) one "could" even add more than one possible conversion sheme that the user could chose from several options how the long names would be translated into short.
( to adapt to different naming shemes ---> just for vintage wavetables etc. / otherwise just having one conversion sheme as the main one)

i think the most practical solution would be that we end up with some printable name conversion sheets if some automatic name conversion would become the way to go.
( i have btw. even no longer a working printer and had to go to a shop. but i´d be ok with such ! better than nothing or unneccessary hassle while patching )

hope my english was clear enough. otherwise sorry, and sorry for long winded post.
Though i have no clue how much workload it is to porgramm such things.
For sale / reduced prices ( swiss (we are NON-EU)/ in case it makes sense_ EU/WW)(CHF +- = $):
lowered prices: Dotcom Q960: 650.- / Q119: 420 / ( i also have one or much likely two 19" Frames)
ATV A-Frame incl. Accu and Bag: 830.-, like new, quasi unused.

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Post by FrogStar » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:56 pm

Paults, I’d like thank you and your team for designing and building such great modules and for offering free software that makes them even better. It takes a lot of knowledge, experience and courage to do this for a market as niche and fickle as Eurorack. Best to you.

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Post by paults » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:47 pm

Thank you that was very kind. :sb:

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Post by mdoudoroff » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:48 am

Funky40, thank you for the constructive response. I hadn’t really thought about the abbreviation strategy, and that might be handy tool, at least when names are lengthy and multi-word.

The big problem here is edge cases. I suppose whatever falls through the cracks will simply wind up an automatic 8.3 name.

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Post by mdoudoroff » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:47 am

Fastus wrote:And for those of us who do rename the banks before loading to SD card, a sort by title would be awesome.
At the moment, it appears the E352 simply displays the files in whatever order the FAT has them stored. There’s no sorting or filtering. Presumably there’s no sorting because that would require loading the filenames into an array and then sorting the array, which would then require more RAM. I have no idea why the E352 bothers to list any dot files or, for that matter, any file that doesn’t have a .wav extension (that isn’t a folder name).

It is notoriously difficult to control the order that FAT stores files natively. If you carefully erase the SD card, and then very deliberately, manually copy one file at a time onto the SD card, you might get something close to the order you put them in, but there seem to be opaque factors that can result in some jumbling.

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Post by Vortico » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:31 am

How many hours a day do you spend loading wavetables into your E352/E370? I've never seen such complaining in software over such a pointless detail. Of all the (many) problems in the Eurorack modular synthesizer world, this is not one of them.

Here is a summary of my experience upon seeing the file manager on my E352 for the first time.

"Huh, reminds me of my days playing Duke Nukem"

*proceeds to be amazed with cloud-morph mode*



If you treat this module as a patch-playing machine, you will have the same mundane experience as kids clicking "next preset" repeatedly on patch-playing VST plugins.
If you spend time tweaking your own custom wavetables with WaveEdit, you will have an excellent time using E352/E370's modes to morph and modulate them.
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Post by Funky40 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:17 pm

Vortico wrote:How many hours a day do you spend loading wavetables into your E352/E370? I've never seen such complaining in software over such a pointless detail. Of all the (many) problems in the Eurorack modular synthesizer world, this is not one of them.
Do you read this here as beeing complaints ?
hopefully not

i´d hate to hassle with the waveform filewavs and their names while making music.
and anything that helps to keep the handling easy will encourage people to experiment more vs. just loading the next best 3-4-5 .wavs and make music with those.
well, i´m shure the E370 will sound awesome alone this way.......no, problem
For sale / reduced prices ( swiss (we are NON-EU)/ in case it makes sense_ EU/WW)(CHF +- = $):
lowered prices: Dotcom Q960: 650.- / Q119: 420 / ( i also have one or much likely two 19" Frames)
ATV A-Frame incl. Accu and Bag: 830.-, like new, quasi unused.

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Post by jschussler » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:34 am

Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but is there any chance of adding audio previews to the site for each table? Be helpful to get an idea ahead of time which ones were of most interest.

Granted, loading them all into waveedit means you can try them out directly, but as the collection grows that solution won't really scale...


Nevermind, just realized that if I set Waveedit to playing and morphing then go to the bank library you can just load each one and it will automatically play.

I'd delete this post to hide my lack of brain activity, but don't see a way to do that, other than the "Ignore" button.

I wish I were smarter.

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Post by CF3 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:11 pm

I don't really have an issue with the naming. Of course more characters would be better, but as someone used to working with "vintage" samplers, there's always some sort of naming convention. I've already adjusted my wavetable names to 8 characters.... No worries. Just make sure to include any relevant info in the description box. Other programs like Audio Term force you to do this also (although it's archaic on purpose :hihi: ).

Great job with the editor and site BTW :party:

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Post by Tonefloat01 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:57 am

Holy Mother of Frickin’ Pickles!!
Just looked at the long list of downloads available from this site and now I’m extremely eager to finally get my E370!
Thanks in advance everyone for sharing your great wavetables!
I will make sure that I add mine as well :nana:

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Post by Swiss Frank » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:50 am

Attn. Jason Proctor, Hermann Seib and Cary Roberts:

I notice you credited with the PPG wavetable uploads. Thank you all for the effort. I'm building a wavetable oscillator myself and wanted to hear what others have done with the genre as I went about building my own wavetables and patches.

However there might be an issue with these wavetables.

I believe it is possible that you sampled 128-sample waveforms up to 128 harmonics, then used the resulting spectrum to generate 256-sample waveforms.

If that happened, we would see harmonics alias around the Nyquist--in this case around the 64th harmonic. And indeed, all waveforms I look at in the waveeditonline collection called PPG_wavetable have this type of mirroring. Harmonic 128 is similar to harmonic 1; 127 to 2, etc., up to 64 being more or less 63.

At first I suspected it was a bug in my wavetable editor (shown below). This is the chart I'd expect if I was looking for harmonics up to 128 on a 128-sample waveform. However, 1) the input file isn't 128 samples per wave, but seems to be 256. 2) every other wavetable I've checked on this site does NOT have this mirroring effect.

What are your thoughts? My bug? Or is the data not quite right?Image

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Post by paults » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:12 am

The PPG data used was by reading the contents of the EPROMs directly, there is no "sampling".

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Post by mdoudoroff » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:26 am

For people downloading banks directly from the WaveEdit Online web site, the site is now deriving 8.3 filenames. For now, the algorithm is pretty simple:

- Generally, the first eight characters of the title are used.

- If the title has an integer number at the end (separated by a space, up to 99), then the integer is preserved as a numbering scheme. So, “PPG wavetable 31” becomes “PPG_WA31.WAV” instead of something random.

- Numbers are added as necessary to deal with name collisions.

So far, so good.

I’ll refine this further as edge cases emerge.

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Post by Cortega » Sun May 20, 2018 7:31 am

when i copy the Folder with all the Banks from Waveedit Online the e352 shows allways doubled Files, can this be avoid ? gh

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mdoudoroff
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Post by mdoudoroff » Sun May 20, 2018 8:00 am

Cortega wrote:when i copy the Folder with all the Banks from Waveedit Online the e352 shows allways doubled Files, can this be avoid ? gh
Mac OS?

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Hanz
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Post by Hanz » Sun May 20, 2018 8:15 am

I find the same - MacOS (HighSierra) indeed.
Somehow the 8.3 naming gets jumbled on the MicroSD filesystem - even though it shows up normally as the original 8.3 filenames on the Mac itself, E352 list gets messed up (as if using longer filenames, I guess)
Not really sure why that is.... tips? (using other filesystem than current FAT32, or the method of copying perhaps?)
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Post by mdoudoroff » Sun May 20, 2018 8:45 am

Most likely, the problem you are seeing is that Mac OS automatically creates a “hidden” metadata sidecar file for every file. By “hidden”, we mean that the filename begins with a period (which Mac OS normally hides from you in the Finder). This is not the right forum to debate the pros and cons of this behavior, but SynthTech has made no effort to filter out inappropriate (non-WAV) files in their file menu: they just list every item on the SD card.

The procedure you probably want to follow with Mac OS is something like this:

1) Download the big zip file from WaveEdit Online and decompress (if Mac OS doesn’t do so automatically)

2) In the Finder, find the folder of WAV files, make sure you’re in List view, and click the Name column header a couple times to make sure you’re sorting the files alphabetically, in ascending order

Image

3) Carefully click the first filename to select it; scroll to the bottom of the list and carefully shift+click the last filename to select all the files

4) Drag the files to the SD card

5) Open Terminal

6) enter cd /Volumes/E352 (substituting the name of your SD card for “E352”)

7) make sure your cd command actually worked and that you’re in the correct place (the ls command should return a bunch of WAV files; the ls -a command should return the same WAV files, plus show you all the dot files you want to get rid of)

8) once you’re sure you’re in the right place, enter rm .* to delete the dot files—the operating system will decline to delete a few items; no big deal

9) you can verify with the ls -a command

Example:
Image

10) enter exit to bail out of the Terminal session

11) carefully eject the SD card (as per normal) and transfer to your E352

The files should now appear reasonably clean and sorted in the File menu of your E352 (or E370).

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Post by Hanz » Sun May 20, 2018 8:59 am

Thanks Martin, confirm that above works well.
I tried messing a bit myself before your post and eventually got it fixed, but the above is great - clear and consistent! :tu:
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Post by zoneswithoutpeople » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:56 am

Am I understanding correctly that the E352 can only have 3 user wavetable banks at a time per SD card?

Or can I have say, 50 banks, and have 3 selected for active use?

It would be a shame to have to take the card out every time I wanted to try another wavetable, considering how many cool ones have been posted online. Amazing module though.

Thanks!

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Post by mdoudoroff » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:54 am

zoneswithoutpeople wrote:Am I understanding correctly that the E352 can only have 3 user wavetable banks at a time per SD card?

Or can I have say, 50 banks, and have 3 selected for active use?

It would be a shame to have to take the card out every time I wanted to try another wavetable, considering how many cool ones have been posted online. Amazing module though.
You can have hundreds of banks on the SD card—in fact, you can have pretty much every bank in existence on one SD card. For now. (As of this writing, there are about 120 banks available.)

To actually use the banks on either the E352 or E370, you have to go to the File menu, scroll through the files on the SD card, and load up to eight of them into the provided user slots in nonvolatile memory. Then those you’ve loaded appear alongside the three classic ROM banks from the E330 in the voice settings.

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Post by nangu » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:26 am

Since this thread got bumped today, I just noticed the posts from May 20th about Mac OS littering the SD card with hidden files. There's a much easier way to get rid of those files than using Terminal. I'm lazy, so I'll just repost what I wrote in another thread..


You can use this to automatically nuke all the junk as you eject:

https://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/52076/him


Here's an old version that I run on my 10.6.8 machine. I haven't tried that newer one yet..

https://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/27416/hidden-cleaner


It would be wise to test it with a non-critical card before trusting it with your good stuff..

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Post by zerodivide » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:23 pm

so I'm new to this wavetable editing stuff - how come if I load something like say a field recording of an airport, it doesnt sound anything like this when its turned into a wavetable? it sounds like a very poor man's version of the included sounds in the default banks. not sure whats happening here. Any guidelines to knowing what may sound good as a wavetable?

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Post by starthief » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:47 pm

zerodivide wrote:so I'm new to this wavetable editing stuff - how come if I load something like say a field recording of an airport, it doesnt sound anything like this when its turned into a wavetable? it sounds like a very poor man's version of the included sounds in the default banks. not sure whats happening here. Any guidelines to knowing what may sound good as a wavetable?
Wavetable synths expect a single cycle waveform in each entry. Anything else and... good luck.

You can use one to try to play a sample, but it's kind of a hack, and gets into a kind of crude granular synthesis. The idea is to morph through the table (in one dimension) at a steady rate, proportional to the VCO frequency.

Also: anything resembling white noise, once put in a wavetable, becomes periodic.

Or you can use the sample playback mode on the E352/E370. It just plays the buffer forward without breaking it into 64 256-sample chunks.

You have 16K total samples to work with. If you're trying to cram a 20 second field recording into that, you have an effective sample rate of 819 Hz. Good luck with that :hihi:

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Post by zerodivide » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:29 pm

yeah I'm not trying to use it like a sampler. Have you listened to Ableton's new-ish Wavetable synth? Lots of wavetables based on nature sounds and field recordings and they sound amazing. Wonder if I can somehow hack Live to grab those..

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