Supercell: expanded version of Clouds + Superparasites firmware

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thetwlo
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Re: Supercell: expanded version of Clouds + Superparasites firmware

Post by thetwlo » Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:53 am

pld wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:45 am

Actually no one has actually written new code since what, 1991? Since then it's been a self-perpetuating cycle of copy & paste.
yup all $$ to Tom Erbe Even Soundhack has changed.

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Re: Supercell: expanded version of Clouds + Superparasites firmware

Post by blw » Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:11 am

Wow, the moderation in this thread is insane. Maybe you guys should just lock one thread and redirect the conversation to an existing thread like in the old days? Or do all that work, but it seems to amount to a jibberish chronology.

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Re: Supercell: expanded version of Clouds + Superparasites firmware

Post by dialekt » Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:22 am

pld wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:45 am
Well I'm surprised, this is only about half as bad as I expected and there is the occasional glimpse of utility :)
dialekt wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:17 pm
...on very little effort in comparison to people who actual design these modules.
I'd question that assumption. Also you're maybe underestimating the volume built by bedroom cloners (ask me about o_C).
I am not under estimating volume output of said spare bedroom cloners. They are usually cooking boards in a makeshift toaster oven after they work their real jobs, ordering everything for the builds, assembly, selling for peanuts on third party fee sites like reverb, etsy, ebay, packing, shipping each individual order for peanuts. $50-75 per module if they are lucky. That's a lot of work for that kind of profit. They aren't going CM and sending dozens of units at a hit to dealers. 1979 has a half dozen Mutable clones ranging from $700-850. He sells blank panels 1u for $15 and 2u for $25 so lets be generous and say he pays $50 per panel for the 1979 modules. So for the fancy 2u buchla clouds let's be generous again and say $100 per board from CM and even more generous and say $50 in parts like knobs jacks and such. $200 to build one buchla super clouds. Dealers pay 70% street. PC I know rakes some companies at 60% street. 60% of $850 is $510. 510-200=310. $310 profit generously estimated. It's likely more like $400 considering the generous estimations and giving 60% off street. That is more than any consumer pays for any current Mutable Instrument product.

Designing a panel and board layout of an already existing schematic and paying someone to adapt the parasites firmware for the menu breakout is not the same thing as coming up with the concept, designing the concept, build fail build fail build.FUND, market, build a brand and commit to open source just for con artists to weasel their way into thinking they maintain some sort of ownership this list can go on for a while. I'm glad you take pride in building a bunch of teensy projects and defending someone who is proving their weight in goat shit. Keep funding this dude and he will be the next Uli.

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Re: Supercell: expanded version of Clouds + Superparasites firmware

Post by search64 » Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:41 am

pld wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:45 am
Well I'm surprised, this is only about half as bad as I expected and there is the occasional glimpse of utility :)
dialekt wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:17 pm
...on very little effort in comparison to people who actual design these modules.
I'd question that assumption. Also you're maybe underestimating the volume built by bedroom cloners (ask me about o_C).
This is irrelevant. You either abide by the open sourcing guidelines at the risk of getting cloned, or you create your own stuff which by all means don’t open source. What you can’t do is say, of course I will follow the same license for any derivatives I create, no wait I changed my mind.

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Re: Supercell: expanded version of Clouds + Superparasites firmware

Post by pld » Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:54 am

dialekt wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:22 am
Mostly a rant.
Yeah, you're really a shining example to follow there and not jumping to any conclusions at all :roll:
Seems the basis of your argument is pooh-poohing other people's work. Awesome.

You might be right with the "for peanuts" in many cases, but even if you left the "usually" loophole that's ignoring a whole set of data. The people who sold 100s of o_C for $200-300 are just a figment of my imagination? Or put themselves through college with it? That's not peanuts (although I guess I'm a monkey because that's what I got :)).

search64 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:41 am
This is irrelevant. You either abide by the open sourcing guidelines at the risk of getting cloned, or you create your own stuff which by all means don’t open source. What you can’t do is say, of course I will follow the same license for any derivatives I create, no wait I changed my mind.
You're right. The amount of risk, effort or reward is irrelevant in the context of licensing.
It's perhaps more relevant if you want to have some broader discussion about where to go, or better licensing? I dunno, I'm just winging it here and trying not to assume the worst.

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Re: Supercell: expanded version of Clouds + Superparasites firmware

Post by Robot00 » Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:03 am

I am currently building my first eurorack modular and would like a variant of Clouds in it. I was considering Supercell, but after reading the recent discussion, I don’t want it at this time.

What alternatives do I have though if I want a high quality version of Clouds? Mutable doesn’t make Clouds anymore and most clones don’t look too good. I live in Europe so I don’t have easy access to some of the better clones available in the US either.

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Re: Supercell: expanded version of Clouds + Superparasites firmware

Post by oldenjon » Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:22 am

dialekt wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:22 am
....It's likely more like $400 considering the generous estimations and giving 60% off street. That is more than any consumer pays for any current Mutable Instrument product.

...Keep funding this dude and he will be the next Uli.
Word. The boutique pricing of the 1979 Mutable stuff is absurd (and potentially because he's paying someone to do the bulk of the work?). I mean, I get where Grayscale is coming from. It's a bubble. If I had a monopoly on Buchla-format Mutable I'd be worried about cloners undercutting my business too. While I'm surprised it's taken this long to pop I'm not at all surprised about how it's being handled. This is the same guy that had a public meltdown when he thought someone had borrowed knob artwork from the panel renders on his site. I don't mean to troll, but it seems like many commenters are pretty clueless about what's happening here.
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Re: Supercell: expanded version of Clouds + Superparasites firmware

Post by forestcaver » Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:25 am

pld wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:45 am

(ask me about o_C).
Probably a lot of people genuinely dont realise that the o_C team get a donation to the development fund if pcbs are bought direct from mxmxmx or certain other specific pcb vendors. I only found out accidentally after talking to mxmxmx and have since got o_c and T_u boards from places that make a donation, apart from one board that I was given by a friend. (I only build modules for my personal use). If more people knew, hopefully more would want to support you in this way.
Last edited by forestcaver on Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Supercell: expanded version of Clouds + Superparasites firmware

Post by search64 » Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:40 am

pld wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:54 am
search64 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:41 am
This is irrelevant. You either abide by the open sourcing guidelines at the risk of getting cloned, or you create your own stuff which by all means don’t open source. What you can’t do is say, of course I will follow the same license for any derivatives I create, no wait I changed my mind.
You're right. The amount of risk, effort or reward is irrelevant in the context of licensing.
It's perhaps more relevant if you want to have some broader discussion about where to go, or better licensing? I dunno, I'm just winging it here and trying not to assume the worst.
By all means, this is a discussion worth having. I'm just saying this is not the way to have that discussion, by deciding on your own you won't participate anymore after cloning someone else's work, while complaining about people cloning your work (I can't believe Wes doesn't see that irony at all).

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Re: Supercell: expanded version of Clouds + Superparasites firmware

Post by Yes Powder » Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:20 am

search64 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:40 am
I'm just saying this is not the way to have that discussion, by deciding on your own you won't participate anymore after cloning someone else's work, while complaining about people cloning your work (I can't believe Wes doesn't see that irony at all).
I don’t think there’s any irony to be seen. There’s a difference between what he did, and what he’s afraid of other people doing. The Supercell is a vastly enhanced design to the original Clouds. He doesn’t want the market to be flooded with a bunch of low-effort exact duplicates absurdly undercutting him as what happened with Clouds, Braids, and other popular Mutable designs. The two things are clearly not the same.
Everyone is dogpiling on Greyscale right now, but he’s not the one who pissed in the pool here.

Honest question: i’ve been wondering what angle the people who are against him right now are coming from. Are they looking to build one for their own use? Or are they putting up a fight with the intention of getting him to release the schematics so they can make duplicates and sell them? Or is this arguing purely for the theoretical aspects of open-source, creative commons, et cetera?
Last edited by Yes Powder on Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Supercell: expanded version of Clouds + Superparasites firmware

Post by pld » Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:22 am

So I don't want to hijack things with o_C, that was just an example of scale. And I'm not complaining... well ok, maybe a little bit ;)
search64 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:40 am
By all means, this is a discussion worth having. I'm just saying this is not the way to have that discussion, by deciding on your own you won't participate anymore after cloning someone else's work, while complaining about people cloning your work (I can't believe Wes doesn't see that irony at all).
From my perspective the whole thing was an exercise in "not the way to have that discussion" but hey, maybe we'll end up in the right place.

I totally understand pushing back. Some uses of OS irk me as well. But I also believe the rules can't be too rigid, the method of pushing matters, and ultimately there has to be a higher goal than "enforcing licences at all costs" or even "enforcing intent at all costs". No one gets it right all the time and licences don't create anything on their own.

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Re: Supercell: expanded version of Clouds + Superparasites firmware

Post by search64 » Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:31 am

Yes Powder wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:20 am
I don’t think there’s any irony to be seen. There’s a difference between what he did, and what he’s afraid of other people doing. The Supercell is a vastly enhanced design to the original Clouds. He doesn’t want the market to be flooded with a bunch of low-effort exact duplicates absurdly undercutting him as what happened with Clouds, Braids, and other popular Mutable designs. The two things are clearly not the same.
Everyone is dogpiling on Greyscale right now, but he’s not the one who pissed in the pool here.

Honest question: i’ve been wondering what angle the people who are against him right now are coming from. Are they looking to build one for their own use? Or are they putting up a fight with the intention of getting him to release the schematics so they can make duplicates and sell them? Or is this arguing purely for the theoretical aspects of open-source, creative commons, et cetera?
Quality is a nonsense argument. There is no difference between someone taking an open source project and making clones, and someone taking an open source project and making a somewhat adapted clone. This is the thing with open source, you either accept the premise or you don't. You don't get to pick and choose the parts you like but not the ones you don't. If Grayscale doesn't want to use the open source license that Emilie proposed, then he should have applied the regular copyright rules: Mutable Instruments owns the rights to their IP. Instead he took the IP on the premise that his derivatives would use the same license, only to then close source his product.

With regard to your honest question, I'm not looking to make clones, I'm not looking to build any modules based on this, I'm merely irked by the insistence that this is right or fair.

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Re: Supercell: expanded version of Clouds + Superparasites firmware

Post by Zerius » Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:42 am

Robot00 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:03 am
I am currently building my first eurorack modular and would like a variant of Clouds in it. I was considering Supercell, but after reading the recent discussion, I don’t want it at this time.

What alternatives do I have though if I want a high quality version of Clouds? Mutable doesn’t make Clouds anymore and most clones don’t look too good. I live in Europe so I don’t have easy access to some of the better clones available in the US either.
If it’s your first euro case, I would stick with OG Clouds with Parasites. You can easy find one on 2nd hand market. Super powerful module you won’t be disappointed, I didn’t try other clones yet but I’m super happy with what offers me the OG firmware and the upgraded one.
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Re: Supercell: expanded version of Clouds + Superparasites firmware

Post by aroom » Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:45 am

Zerius wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:42 am
Robot00 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:03 am
I am currently building my first eurorack modular and would like a variant of Clouds in it. I was considering Supercell, but after reading the recent discussion, I don’t want it at this time.

What alternatives do I have though if I want a high quality version of Clouds? Mutable doesn’t make Clouds anymore and most clones don’t look too good. I live in Europe so I don’t have easy access to some of the better clones available in the US either.
If it’s your first euro case, I would stick with OG Clouds with Parasites. You can easy find one on 2nd hand market. Super powerful module you won’t be disappointed, I didn’t try other clones yet but I’m super happy with what offers me the OG firmware and the upgraded one.
please, microcell is way more ergonomic than OG clouds (blend button stacked functions, you know...)

it seems that Greyscale is changing is mind about the issue and will fix it, so we can all hope that he will settle this with Mutable Instrument (the sooner the better). please, don't cancel him yet, he is making great products (and fuck all reckless cloners)
Last edited by aroom on Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Grayscale shits on Mutable’s open source license

Post by dubonaire » Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:46 am

Zymos wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:09 pm
Darn, now I’m not sure which sharpener I’m supposed to use on my pitchfork. Can someone explain which parts I need to be offended by and which parts are OK?
Just sharpen it anyway. That seems to be the main agenda here. ;)

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Re: Supercell: expanded version of Clouds + Superparasites firmware

Post by forestcaver » Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:47 am

Yes Powder wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:20 am

Honest question: i’ve been wondering what angle the people who are against him right now are coming from. Are they looking to build one for their own use? Or are they putting up a fight with the intention of getting him to release the schematics so they can make duplicates and sell them? Or is this arguing purely for the theoretical aspects of open-source, creative commons, et cetera?
I dont want to build a clone of one of these clone-with-additions modules.
Since 2018 I wanted to see what changes had been made for my fun. I feel strongly that people shouldnt abuse open source licences - because then the whole community suffers. From a selfish personal perspective I’ve had so much fun playing with MI code and adapting fragments and large chunks of schematic and curcuit design for use in my own (non-commercial, for-fun) modules and want to ensure that this huge resource is available to all.

Honest question: why are you defending this lack of respect for Emilie’s wishes (ie the violation of the licence and original designer’s clear wishes and intentions). Do you think that everyone should take MI designs, adapt and then close source them, or do you think this exemption should only be for grayscale?

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Re: Supercell: expanded version of Clouds + Superparasites firmware

Post by Robot00 » Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:48 am

Zerius wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:42 am
Robot00 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:03 am
I am currently building my first eurorack modular and would like a variant of Clouds in it. I was considering Supercell, but after reading the recent discussion, I don’t want it at this time.

What alternatives do I have though if I want a high quality version of Clouds? Mutable doesn’t make Clouds anymore and most clones don’t look too good. I live in Europe so I don’t have easy access to some of the better clones available in the US either.
If it’s your first euro case, I would stick with OG Clouds with Parasites. You can easy find one on 2nd hand market. Super powerful module you won’t be disappointed, I didn’t try other clones yet but I’m super happy with what offers me the OG firmware and the upgraded one.
Thanks, OG would certainly be enough for me I believe. I need to start hunting for one 2nd hand, would definetily prefer new though. I guess there’s no hope of Mutable ever doing Clouds again, despite there being huge demand..
Last edited by Robot00 on Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:53 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Supercell: expanded version of Clouds + Superparasites firmware

Post by aroom » Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:52 am

Robot00 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:48 am
Zerius wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:42 am
Robot00 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:03 am
I am currently building my first eurorack modular and would like a variant of Clouds in it. I was considering Supercell, but after reading the recent discussion, I don’t want it at this time.

What alternatives do I have though if I want a high quality version of Clouds? Mutable doesn’t make Clouds anymore and most clones don’t look too good. I live in Europe so I don’t have easy access to some of the better clones available in the US either.
If it’s your first euro case, I would stick with OG Clouds with Parasites. You can easy find one on 2nd hand market. Super powerful module you won’t be disappointed, I didn’t try other clones yet but I’m super happy with what offers me the OG firmware and the upgraded one.
Thanks, OG would certainly be enough for me I believe. I need to start hunting for one 2nd hand, would definetily prefer new though. I guess there’s no hope of Mutable ever doing Clouds again, despite there being huge demand..
OG Clouds was discontinued by Mutable Instruments for a good reason. you can find the post from Emilie about it, about the frustration she had from the user interface being not great and not up to Mutable Instrument's standard anymore.

microcell fixed some of those issues.



edit: I wonder why the moderators merged the two topics, it doesn't make any sense.

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Re: Supercell: expanded version of Clouds + Superparasites firmware

Post by forestcaver » Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:08 am

Robot00 wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:03 am

What alternatives do I have though if I want a high quality version of Clouds? Mutable doesn’t make Clouds anymore and most clones don’t look too good. I live in Europe so I don’t have easy access to some of the better clones available in the US either.
I have an original factory mi clouds - at the same time it is both my favourite (due to sound) and least favourite (due to ui) module. Of the alternatives - monsoon looks good (I dont have one) but I do own a Typhoon (which I built) which is like a mix of monsoon and microcell - I think of it as an open source microcell (if microcell or supercell break or have issues then, if grayscale goes out of business or changes his mind about commitments/undertakings as he has said he is happy to do, then due to a lack of schematics, noone can fix it but Typhoon would be easy to fix). So, at the moment, I think that for ui, practical and ethical reasons Typhoon is the best clouds clone/derivative currently. There are european builders or sellers that can be found easily if you wanted a complete module.
Last edited by forestcaver on Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Supercell: expanded version of Clouds + Superparasites firmware

Post by dialekt » Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:10 am

pld wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:54 am
dialekt wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:22 am
Mostly a rant.
Yeah, you're really a shining example to follow there and not jumping to any conclusions at all :roll:
Seems the basis of your argument is pooh-poohing other people's work. Awesome.

You might be right with the "for peanuts" in many cases, but even if you left the "usually" loophole that's ignoring a whole set of data. The people who sold 100s of o_C for $200-300 are just a figment of my imagination? Or put themselves through college with it? That's not peanuts (although I guess I'm a monkey because that's what I got :)).
Are you selling O+C for $850? Getting bulk orders from dealers around the world on those?

Didn't think so.

Good for you for having a side hustle to get you through college. You should give yourself a bigger pat on the back than you have cryptically blessed us with through you last several posts (which no one asked you about). You made a few hundred bucks a week to pump out teensy based modules and paid for an education. Congratulations. Not sure if I would be proud to brag about that or what it even has to do with this? Unless you are trying to say that Wes makes more in a couple of weeks on these modules than you made in a couple of years of working a side hustle through college? I'm really unsure what the connection you are trying to make is?

You forgot the the victimizing btw!

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Re: Supercell: expanded version of Clouds + Superparasites firmware

Post by bawbag » Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:18 am

dialekt wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:10 am
pld wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:54 am
dialekt wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:22 am
Mostly a rant.
Yeah, you're really a shining example to follow there and not jumping to any conclusions at all :roll:
Seems the basis of your argument is pooh-poohing other people's work. Awesome.

You might be right with the "for peanuts" in many cases, but even if you left the "usually" loophole that's ignoring a whole set of data. The people who sold 100s of o_C for $200-300 are just a figment of my imagination? Or put themselves through college with it? That's not peanuts (although I guess I'm a monkey because that's what I got :)).
Are you selling O+C for $850? Getting bulk orders from dealers around the world on those?

Didn't think so.

Good for you for having a side hustle to get you through college. You should give yourself a bigger pat on the back than you have cryptically blessed us with through you last several posts (which no one asked you about). You made a few hundred bucks a week to pump out teensy based modules and paid for an education. Congratulations. Not sure if I would be proud to brag about that or what it even has to do with this? Unless you are trying to say that Wes makes more in a couple of weeks on these modules than you made in a couple of years of working a side hustle through college? I'm really unsure what the connection you are trying to make is?

You forgot the the victimizing btw!
I think you're being overly combative, especially towards someone who has created (along with Tim Churches and MXMXMX) one of the most wonderful open-source Eurorack modules. Perhaps you should dial it back a little.

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Re: Supercell: expanded version of Clouds + Superparasites firmware

Post by pld » Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:41 am

dialekt wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:10 am
Good for you for having a side hustle to get you through college. You should give yourself a bigger pat on the back than you have cryptically blessed us with through you last several posts (which no one asked you about).
Oh come on, that's what you're going to take from that?
Read it again. Maybe try a more charitable interpretation. Perhaps I was imprecise, but someone else put themselves through college. I made effectively nothing on all the o_C out there but I'm not a victim (nor anything special, the thing is flawed as heck). We made our decisions when releasing it, turns they weren't great decisions. It happens.
You also appear to believe that your posts are relevant. Funny how that works...

Also, FWIW, I'm disputing your claims about the scale/volume of clones, and that your suggested pricing model is too low. I have some semblance of data based on experience with o_C. Call it anecdata if you like, but that's what you should have run with.

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Re: Supercell: expanded version of Clouds + Superparasites firmware

Post by Paranormal Patroler » Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:55 am

A friendly reminder to keep things civil: think twice before you post, only post if you'd truly say the same thing in a personal discussion, your opinion is as relevant as anybody else's, give people the benefit of the doubt, ask before you assume.

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Re: Supercell: expanded version of Clouds + Superparasites firmware

Post by Jamisnemo » Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:01 am

Perhaps it's worth pointing out: If someone dosen't believe CC-BY-SA is applicable to some portion of a hardware design due to copyright laws, then it follows that they likely also believe the other side of that copyright law: The circut designs themselves are ideas and are not copyrightable.

So, fine. You decide to buck the CC license by citing copyright law. I'm not a lawyer, whatever.

But if that's the road you wanna take, the least you can do is be consistent. That means doubling down on the idea that circuit designs are not copyrightable.

At that point, the good faith approach seems to be making a conscious effort to split the difference between not releasing full board files and releasing schematics. Not to mention the fact that that path is closest to the original artists intent anyways...

For color, here's a personal situation from a few years back. As a side project, I fully reverse engineered the Harvestman Zorlan Cannon mkii including all of the information required to write custom firmware for the thing. I started to do so, including putting the details up on GitHub and sending a few people here early versions of the firmware I had produced.

Scott communicated that he didn't want the information shared. It's a small community so I took the work down, stopped working on it, and moved on.

Was I within my rights to keep that information public? Legally, and under copyright law, probably. But it would be a different story if I had taken his entire design, re-built it as my own module, and started selling it.

So, sure, while circuit designs can't be copyrighted, and maybe CC-BY-SA dosen't quite fit here from some point of view, arguments in that area are really weak because they skip around the social challenges that are honestly the reason this community exists.

Either way, I look forward to seeing how Grayscale decides to position their business here.

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Re: Supercell: expanded version of Clouds + Superparasites firmware

Post by pld » Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:20 am

forestcaver wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:47 am
Honest question: why are you defending this lack of respect for Emilie’s wishes (ie the violation of the licence and original designer’s clear wishes and intentions). Do you think that everyone should take MI designs, adapt and then close source them, or do you think this exemption should only be for grayscale?
Doesn't that first require some definition of "at what point a work is stand-alone enough to be considered not just adapted, but protectable in its own right"? If one exists. I understand the hoopla about the Buchla modules much more than say Supercell.

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