Announcing Maze: Sequential attenuverting router and mixer.

gringostar · Post by **gringostar** » Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:37 pm

LiveStock Electronics wrote:MvK
What you are describing is pretty similar to another module I am working on called "Ellis" (it is still unannounced and I prefer not to give any details yet). However it will be a great companion to Maze, but will work as a standalone module too. More info will follow later this year.

Any update on the Ellis? Looking at picking up a Maze but would love to know what an expander would do/how large it is.

LiveStock Electronics · Post by **LiveStock Electronics** » Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:05 am

youkon
No problem! Yeah I was thinking maybe the copying part could be useful for you. Anyway as promised the Maze firmware v1.2.2 is up @ www.livestockelectronics.com/support with the fix for the mute deselection.

gringostar
Sure I can shed some light on Ellis

. It is another 12HP module with a similar mindset/workflow as Maze. Where Maze handles presets for your patches, meaning attenuation/attenuversion and routing/mixing. Ellis handles presets for up to eight parameters of other modules (basically: if the parameter has a cv input you can create a preset for it). The main goal with Ellis is to ease transitions between tracks and being able to recall settings of other modules (analog too). Ellis and Maze can be linked internally, however this is only useful if you are using Maze to route CV. If you use Maze as an audio router, linking does not really make sense.

Hope this gives you an idea of what Ellis is, let me know if you have any questions.

gringostar · Post by **gringostar** » Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:05 pm

So if I got this correct the Ellis will have the same layout as the Maze, but will be a sort of CV sequencer/controller with 8 outs where the Maze is an attenuation/attenuverter/matrix mixer sequencer/controller with 4 in and 4 out?

LiveStock Electronics · Post by **LiveStock Electronics** » Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:19 am

gringostar
Yeah, except the layout is slightly different, as the focus of Ellis is different too. But it will have similar functions and workflow. So if you know how Maze works, you will know how Ellis works.

sir stony · Post by **sir stony** » Wed May 01, 2019 7:09 am

I added the maze to my system a few days ago and I already found something to request: is there a way (or could you tweak the firmware) to increase the brightness difference of selected vs unselected buttons? It's not really easy to spot as different colours are interpreted by the eye as differently intense. And if those sit next to each other on the panel, it can be very hard to spot what button is selected and if the one next to it isn't, especially when you're under pressure to get it right during a live play...

Other than that, awesome module to select different settings for live use in the blink of an eye instead of rewiring half the patch cords when going from one track to another.

LiveStock Electronics · Post by **LiveStock Electronics** » Thu May 02, 2019 3:55 am

Hi sir stony!

The issue with changing the led brightness is that I cannot go higher in brightness. The modules is rated 200mA @+12V already and designed to work on that threshold. Meaning I can only go down in brightness. However the current brightness for unselected routings has been carefully chosen so it is different enough for low light situations and can still be seen in high light situations. If you go down with unselected routings you will not be able to see them and loose colour definition.

I have also looked into other ways of indicating selection or not such as flashing routing positions etc. But this is poor when you start sequencing.

So as I am trying some stuff out right now, I feel that the problem you are experiencing is most noticeable when you for instance have a RED routing position unselected and a MAGENTA routing selected. As it is now MAGENTA is made by decreasing red and adding blue. I think the right solution and best result may be to change some colour scaling.

I am currently working on firmware v.1.3. But this will have to wait until after Superbooth as it is still not ready. I think that especially youkon will be pleased, as the biggest change will be that you can change presets while sequencing! I promise to also look into different colour scaling for this version, but of course will have to see if it is an improvement.

Cheers. For those of you coming to Superbooth, hope to see you there!

Daniel

setzer · Post by **setzer** » Tue May 07, 2019 9:51 pm

Please post any new updates about ellis in here, or link to other threads with info please !

Really interested in this module. I've always loved MI Frames and almost bought a second one because I want 8 outs instead of 4..

This looks to cover that base entirely and in 12hp ??!!?!

Would love a manual or full module explanation...

Please keep up posted, thanks

Leverkusen · Post by **Leverkusen** » Tue May 21, 2019 12:28 pm

After recently buying a MAZE I am trying to get into the workflow now. There are a few things I do not really understand though. And I wanted to make sure that I am not expecting wrong things or just don't get something obvious.

When I change the attenuation on one matrix knot it wont affect the actual outcome until I save and leave that mode, which makes it a bit tedious to dial it in just right. Also, even when a matrix point is zeroed there seems to be some crosstalk coming through. Is this to be expected? Then, is it so that you have to change every individual point in the matrix one for one, save it, go back into the patch view and then procede with the next knot? When I change to another button in between the value on the display stays the same as it was on the button I altered before and seems to get copied back and forth, right?

happyham · Post by **happyham** » Thu May 23, 2019 10:35 am

Leverkusen wrote:After recently buying a MAZE I am trying to get into the workflow now. There are a few things I do not really understand though. And I wanted to make sure that I am not expecting wrong things or just don't get something obvious.

When I change the attenuation on one matrix knot it wont affect the actual outcome until I save and leave that mode, which makes it a bit tedious to dial it in just right. Also, even when a matrix point is zeroed there seems to be some crosstalk coming through. Is this to be expected? Then, is it so that you have to change every individual point in the matrix one for one, save it, go back into the patch view and then procede with the next knot? When I change to another button in between the value on the display stays the same as it was on the button I altered before and seems to get copied back and forth, right?

For crosstalk, I received an answer from Livestock. For audio, it's better to use the unipolar mode for the vcas (as aattenuators, not attenuverters). Once you configure it this way, there's no more crosstalk.
I think this thing is great, can't wait to have more time to explore the possibilities.

Leverkusen · Post by **Leverkusen** » Sat May 25, 2019 2:30 pm

happyham wrote:
Leverkusen wrote:After recently buying a MAZE I am trying to get into the workflow now. There are a few things I do not really understand though. And I wanted to make sure that I am not expecting wrong things or just don't get something obvious.

When I change the attenuation on one matrix knot it wont affect the actual outcome until I save and leave that mode, which makes it a bit tedious to dial it in just right. Also, even when a matrix point is zeroed there seems to be some crosstalk coming through. Is this to be expected? Then, is it so that you have to change every individual point in the matrix one for one, save it, go back into the patch view and then procede with the next knot? When I change to another button in between the value on the display stays the same as it was on the button I altered before and seems to get copied back and forth, right?
For crosstalk, I received an answer from Livestock. For audio, it's better to use the unipolar mode for the vcas (as aattenuators, not attenuverters). Once you configure it this way, there's no more crosstalk.
I think this thing is great, can't wait to have more time to explore the possibilities.

I have not used it for audio by now but will try this. I also have CV crosstalk. Like there is still modulation when there should not be any. Maybe it's more bleed through than crosstalk.

happyham · Post by **happyham** » Sun May 26, 2019 2:00 am

Leverkusen wrote:
happyham wrote:
Leverkusen wrote:After recently buying a MAZE I am trying to get into the workflow now. There are a few things I do not really understand though. And I wanted to make sure that I am not expecting wrong things or just don't get something obvious.

When I change the attenuation on one matrix knot it wont affect the actual outcome until I save and leave that mode, which makes it a bit tedious to dial it in just right. Also, even when a matrix point is zeroed there seems to be some crosstalk coming through. Is this to be expected? Then, is it so that you have to change every individual point in the matrix one for one, save it, go back into the patch view and then procede with the next knot? When I change to another button in between the value on the display stays the same as it was on the button I altered before and seems to get copied back and forth, right?
For crosstalk, I received an answer from Livestock. For audio, it's better to use the unipolar mode for the vcas (as aattenuators, not attenuverters). Once you configure it this way, there's no more crosstalk.
I think this thing is great, can't wait to have more time to explore the possibilities.
I have not used it for audio by now but will try this. I also have CV crosstalk. Like there is still modulation when there should not be any. Maybe it's more bleed through than crosstalk.

You might want to try the calibration procedure to reduce this. I tried it, but I didn't do it very well, so was unable to fully close the vcas in attenuverter mode. If you wan't a patch that requires fully closing vcas for cv or audio, it might be better to use unipolar mode. What's good is that you can choose bipolar or unipolar mode per output.

LiveStock Electronics · Post by **LiveStock Electronics** » Thu May 30, 2019 7:44 am

Hi Leverkusen
Hmm.. for some reason I am not getting notifications from muff. Anyway:

wont affect the actual outcome until I save and leave that mode

This should not be the case. I am guessing you have your encoder setting set to pickup and not instant? Please check the settings page of the user manual to see which button needs to be green.

you have to change every individual point in the matrix one for one

No you can select multiple. You should be able to press one or more and change them simultaneously. Again you probably have your encoder setting set to pickup and not instant.

go back into the patch view and then procede with the next knot

As of now yes, in the upcoming update there will be a change to this.

was on the button I altered before and seems to get copied back and forth, right?

Not really sure what you mean here. But if you press a routing position it starts from that setting. Press another one and it will be that setting too.

seems to be some crosstalk coming through

Getting it fully closed with attenuversion is difficult, which is common with attenuversion. But it is likely that you can improve it, please check the calibration manual here: www.livestockelectronics.com/support. Otherwise I would indeed recommend using the attenuation setting if needed.

Last thing to check is which version you are running. To do this go to settings by pressing and holding the FUNC button. In the last frame of the animation your version should be indicated with dots.
The last version is v1.2.2 so it should look like this: . : : , if you don't see those amount of dots or not seeing any dots at all: I would suggest updating.

Please let me know if this helps!

mosorensen · Post by **mosorensen** » Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:49 pm

Ellis just came up on modulargrid. I have been looking at the Voltage Block for this purpose, but this looks like a very interesting alternative. Would love to hear more details about its functionality, if anybody can help.

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/livestock ... nics-ellis

LiveStock Electronics · Post by **LiveStock Electronics** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:47 am

mosorensen
Hi! Will start a thread for Ellis soon, once I start going into production.

Is there anything particular you'd like to know?

I wanted to have a module that allowed me to create presets for my other modules and then change all the parameters at the same time. So for instance I'd have one track with specific sounds and another track with different sounds. Instead of trying to change 8 knobs with two hands, using Ellis you can go from one track to another using one hand or no hands at all.

So there are 8 presets per bank, with 8 banks. So 64 presets in total. The outputs are always stable voltages (so no envelopes or lfo's).

You can start changing the presets by: 1. pressing the preset on the matrix. 2. crossfade between presets with the fade knob (similar to the octatrack crossfade). Both options can be modulated/automated with cv too! And you can also apply morphing for smooth transitions.

Ellis can show V/oct or the corresponding voltages on the screen. And an offset can be applied to the voltages using the trans input.

Let me know if you have any other questions

ziggomatic · Post by **ziggomatic** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:19 pm

Am curious if anyone has ever used Maze for quadraphonic panning purposes?? The morphing capabilities seem like they could work well for smoothly moving different audio channels around to different quad speakers??

LiveStock Electronics · Post by **LiveStock Electronics** » Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:26 am

ziggomatic
I know of people who had similar ideas but cannot point you to someone directly. If anyone has experience with this, feel free to comment.

It should definitely be possible, some things that come to mind for me are: make sure you have an extra set of 4 attenuators ready for input attenuation. Mostly because in cases like these you'd want to be able to adjust your signals before Maze, to ensure you use the full range of attenuation in Maze. Another thing is using dedicated line-out modules. So you can adjust the gain before going to the speakers.

For the gain configuration I would recommend:
1. Patching the signal directly to the output modules and set the gain at the output module (ignoring Maze).
2. Set the maze routings to full gain. Patch each signal to attenuator, then from attenuator to each Maze input, and from Maze to each output module. Adjust each attenuator, so you hear mixed signals. Turn it up, but make sure it does not go into clipping.
3. Add gain at the output module if needed.
4. Good to go!

autopoiesis · Post by **autopoiesis** » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:33 am

the suggestion to pair Maze, a mixer, with attenuators points to the one issue I have with what is otherwise a really brilliant module: the incremental resolution of its attenuation is even lower than what you'd get from using a MIDI controller to set volume.

granted, it's tricky business with encoders to strike a good balance between high resolution and an ability to quickly navigate to extreme values, but matrix mixing shines with applications for feedback and mixing CVs, which are both cases where having more than 100 steps of attenuation can be important for finding sweet spots. so the possibility to set the ceiling (floor) at, say, 500 (-500) and implement some kind of encoder acceleration sensing (eg as on Zadar where there is an insanely wide range of values available to each encoder) would have been nice to explore for Maze, IMO.

anyway, this gripe only applies to the attenuation, which is only one aspect of the module and still of course works sufficiently in many patching scenarios

AbundantChoice · Post by **AbundantChoice** » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:02 am

So, dumb Q time piggybacking on a thought I had over in the USTA thread. So USTA can do varying step lengths and can output 2 CVs and 2 gate/triggers per track per step (and there are 4 tracks).

So let's say I've got an e370 quad-voice VCO and a Harmonaig that has it tuned to a 1-3-5-7 chord; so the V/OCT CV of the step just sets the root of the chord and the Harmonaig tunes the rest of the oscillators to follow it. Could I use something like the Maze (+ another sequential switch "after" it) to basically create a chordal arpeggio type thing within a single step using ratchets? So say using Maze i send the four voices in, and configure my first configuration to be something like 1+3+5+7 / 1+3 / 1+5 / 1+3+5. Then my next Maze output configuration is 5+7 / 3+5 / 1+3 / 3+5. And so on and so on. Then you feed those four outputs into *another* sequential switch with just one output.

Then, on steps when I want to "chordal arpeggiate" (or whatever you want to call it), you use a ratcheted trigger to cycle that secondary switch through the four outputs *within* that single step (which can be longer than other steps on the USTA). Then whenever you want to trigger a different 'arpeggio' (for example, when you move on to the next step) you send a single trigger using the other output to the Maze to move on to the next configuration (or use the CV to select one or even randomly pick one?).

Does that make sense, or even work conceptually? Is there a way to do that all "within" Maze and skip the second switch? Part of me is 100% convinced i've thought of the dumbest and most complicated way to do that possible, and it's almost certainly better to just find a way to do it all in the sequencer. But there's something interesting about the idea about being able to create a bunch of potential sets of voice combos, and both easily cycle within them, as well as cycle between various sets of combos, without firing up Ableton and using Expert Sleepers and CV Tools.

LiveStock Electronics · Post by **LiveStock Electronics** » Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:03 am

autopoiesis
I get your point, but in the case of Maze I decided to add attenuversion over more precision (steps). Meaning that it was not possible to do both without making it really expensive. I felt that indeed 100 steps would be sufficient in most cases. Still it's nice to know these uses, so I can take it with me on next module adventures!

AbundantChoice
Personally I would do this with my new module Ellis. So you don't need Maze or Harmonaig. Ellis can be used as a chord generator for 8 outputs. So depending on how many options you'd like, each arpeggio step can be viewed as a chord by itself, like 1-1-1-1, 3-3-1-7, 5-1-3-5, 7-3-3-3. Since there are 8 outputs you could even use a switch to switch between outputs 1-4 and 5-8. Or use the fade knob to switch banks and get new variations.
As for the last switch you mentioned, it could be possible to just use 4 vca's with envelopes, which would be nice to be able to control too and use a clock divider to get different speeds from one trigger output to trigger those envelopes. Just a patch idea that came to mind.

JES · Post by **JES** » Mon May 25, 2020 8:29 am

Leverkusen wrote: ↑
Tue May 21, 2019 12:28 pm
When I change the attenuation on one matrix knot it wont affect the actual outcome until I save and leave that mode, which makes it a bit tedious to dial it in just right.

Is this still the case, and how do people work around this if you're using it for audio?

Hidden_Path · Post by **Hidden_Path** » Mon May 25, 2020 1:33 pm

Sorry if I missed this elsewhere, but is there any plan/way to reverse the panel orientation on this (so jacks are on top)? Would love to pair it with an Ellis but the jacks are opposite on these which seriously triggers my ocd lol.

Arneb · Post by **Arneb** » Mon May 25, 2020 5:00 pm

Hidden_Path wrote: ↑
Mon May 25, 2020 1:33 pm
Sorry if I missed this elsewhere, but is there any plan/way to reverse the panel orientation on this (so jacks are on top)? Would love to pair it with an Ellis but the jacks are opposite on these which seriously triggers my ocd lol.

Mount them on top of each other instead of side by side

Hidden_Path · Post by **Hidden_Path** » Mon May 25, 2020 5:16 pm

Arneb wrote: ↑
Mon May 25, 2020 5:00 pm

Hidden_Path wrote: ↑
Mon May 25, 2020 1:33 pm
Sorry if I missed this elsewhere, but is there any plan/way to reverse the panel orientation on this (so jacks are on top)? Would love to pair it with an Ellis but the jacks are opposite on these which seriously triggers my ocd lol.
Mount them on top of each other instead of side by side

Tough to do in a skiff...

JES · Post by **JES** » Wed May 27, 2020 11:13 am

JES wrote: ↑
Mon May 25, 2020 8:29 am

Leverkusen wrote: ↑
Tue May 21, 2019 12:28 pm
When I change the attenuation on one matrix knot it wont affect the actual outcome until I save and leave that mode, which makes it a bit tedious to dial it in just right.
Is this still the case, and how do people work around this if you're using it for audio?

Bumping my question. Surely people use this for audio? How do you set levels if you constantly have to switch back and forth?

autopoiesis · Post by **autopoiesis** » Wed May 27, 2020 11:27 am

I hate to say this, but I really wanted one of these for months since it was first announced - on paper it's hard to beat for its size - but the two things that are dealbreakers for me:

- the need to constantly hit "save" would kill the fun for me; I'm already frustrated with the few modules I have that require save actions before power-down
- the low stepped resolution of the encoders, which requires external attenuation in order to explore all the fine zones of matrix mixing especially when feedback is involved

I hope one day these can be addressed in firmware updates, but regardless it's still a very powerful routing matrix even if just used more like a morphable WMD SSM than a doepfer a138m

MUFF WIGGLER

MUFF WIGGLER

Announcing Maze: Sequential attenuverting router and mixer.

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