Announcing Maze: Sequential attenuverting router and mixer.

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Post by LiveStock Electronics » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:11 am

stickman
Thanks, great to hear you are enjoying it! Would love to see/hear what you are doing. Feel free to share with me if you want.
Btw I think mine has a little bleed from inputs fully attenuated; is that to be expected?
I am guessing you have the output channels set to attenuversion. In this setting getting it "fully closed" is tricky if not impossible (as common with attenuversion), but it is likely that you can get it better by recalibrating it. Please follow the instructions of the 2nd paragraph: "Adjusting mute positions for attenuversion" in the Calibration Manual

Alternatively setting the output channels to attenuation will allow you to "fully close" the gain. This can be done in the "Settings Menu" as written in the User Manual.

Let me know if anything is unclear and I will help you. Writing a mail to info@livestockelectronics.com is usually faster than Muffs.

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Post by Drilldoughzer » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:27 pm

Looking forward to upload the new firmware...

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Post by stickman » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:48 pm

LiveStock Electronics wrote:stickman
Thanks, great to hear you are enjoying it! Would love to see/hear what you are doing. Feel free to share with me if you want.
Btw I think mine has a little bleed from inputs fully attenuated; is that to be expected?
I am guessing you have the output channels set to attenuversion. In this setting getting it "fully closed" is tricky if not impossible (as common with attenuversion), but it is likely that you can get it better by recalibrating it. Please follow the instructions of the 2nd paragraph: "Adjusting mute positions for attenuversion" in the Calibration Manual

Alternatively setting the output channels to attenuation will allow you to "fully close" the gain. This can be done in the "Settings Menu" as written in the User Manual.

Let me know if anything is unclear and I will help you. Writing a mail to info@livestockelectronics.com is usually faster than Muffs.
Awesome - thanks for the pointer!

Travelling to Canadia for the week so will sort in a week or two

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Post by LiveStock Electronics » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:48 am

Just uploaded the V1.1.1 firmware update!!! I am currently reworking my website so there is no direct link from there yet. But here is the link for everyone eagerly waiting for the update. I still need to update the "User Manual", which I will do once I've finished my website.

Maze V1.1.1

Added:
- Copy and Delete Banks Menu.
- Hold preset in “Save Mode” to randomise preset.
- “Calibration Menu” retrieve previous setting.
- Screen in “Settings Menu” shows version as dots in animation.
Fixed:
- Screen in “Calibration Menu” does not reset.
- “Loud” feedback patch causes keypad to stop working.
- Modulating SLCT input in RANDOM or EUCLIDEAN sequencing causes keypad to stop working until mode switch.

If you have any questions about the new features please let me know!

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Post by gummyboy » Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:37 am

How do you update to new firmware?

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Post by starthief » Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:46 am

gummyboy wrote:How do you update to new firmware?
There's a USB port on the Teensy board, and there's an "Update Manual" on the Livestock support page

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Post by starthief » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:34 pm

LiveStock Electronics wrote:Hmm... it may be cool to add a mode that will fade presets from one to another by the voltage in the SLCT input. But I am not sure yet if this would work well in practice. Give me some time to think about it and try some stuff out.
Did you have a chance to look into this? It would be nice to morph between stages smoothly under CV control, with envelopes or LFOs or something rather than setting a morph time.

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Post by gummyboy » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:09 am

starthief wrote: There's a USB port on the Teensy board, page[/url]
Is Teensy board something installed on the Maze?

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Post by LiveStock Electronics » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:49 am

starthief
Thanks for answering for me.
Did you have a chance to look into this?
Yep still working on it. It will be in the next update, which will be released around Christmas hopefully. The sequencing method will be called "Fade" and allows you to fade from one preset to another in a -5V to +5V range. The knob settings in "Save Mode" will then determine first preset and last preset.

In this update I will include some more sequencing features for trigger based sequencing algorithms, when you put a negative trigger (-5V) in SLCT input. I am still trying some things out so these functions can still change.
For trigger mode: "previous save is triggered"
For random mode: "start and end are randomised, and a random preset is triggered"
For euclidean mode: "deviation, length or start position is increased by one, and next preset is triggered"

Also I have addressed the bug "unable to detect 0V in Continuous Mode" that someone was having in v1.1.1.

gummyboy
Yes teensy is on Maze (it's the little pcb with microUsb plug)

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Post by starthief » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:25 am

LiveStock Electronics wrote:Yep still working on it. It will be in the next update, which will be released around Christmas hopefully. The sequencing method will be called "Fade" and allows you to fade from one preset to another in a -5V to +5V range. The knob settings in "Save Mode" will then determine first preset and last preset.
Very cool. That'll be a nice Christmas gift. :tu:
LiveStock Electronics wrote:In this update I will include some more sequencing features for trigger based sequencing algorithms, when you put a negative trigger (-5V) in SLCT input. I am still trying some things out so these functions can still change.
For trigger mode: "previous save is triggered"
For random mode: "start and end are randomised, and a random preset is triggered"
For euclidean mode: "deviation, length or start position is increased by one, and next preset is triggered"
Nice, I like the idea of negative triggers going to the previous save in trigger mode especially.

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Post by stickman » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:37 pm

Wow can't wait for fade mode! :goo:

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Post by youkon » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:59 pm

I just sequenced my maze with triggers and wanted to freeze a state.
Is this possible?
I thought it could work on the states page pressing the encoder in order to freeze the sequence.. or similar..

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Post by LiveStock Electronics » Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:29 am

starthief
I like the idea of negative triggers going to the previous save in trigger mode especially.
Thanks for the feedback, this actually gave me a new idea of what to do in the random sequencing method. Negative trigger will do a coin toss, choosing between a step forward or backwards.

stickman
Almost ready, not too long now!

youkon
Sorry not exactly sure what you mean, you want to keep the current preset even if there are triggers going in? One way would be to put an on/off switch before going in the SLCT input.

Another way is to use Morphing as a freeze, which I play around with at 2:00 in this video.
https://youtu.be/chjiE3u7gKI?t=123

While sequencing turn the knob in "Route Mode" to change the morph speed. This gives you a nice freezing effect as it will try to hold the preset. This way the presets are still triggered, in case you want it to remain in sequence. Turn the knob back to follow the presets again. This is pretty fun to play with once you get the hang of it. You can press the encoder (or not) while you turn and use different Morphing Multipliers in the Settings to match the way you like it.

Cheers!

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Post by youkon » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:52 pm

I use Maze as stepped Efx router.

A trigger stepps the inputs through different efx that are connected at the 4 outputs.

Sometimes I want to stop the sequence to alter routing settings within a certain preset. Or during performance to calm down a patch.
At this moment, it works like a send mixer with fixed settings. Then, sometimes I feel I want to "freeze" the current preset and go on from there later, perhaps tweak it a bit.

Perhaps an alternative approach to "stop" or "freeze"would be (forgot about that): to use start and length points of sequence. Then I could navigate to the point I want at least. But that wouldn't be that immediate.
Don't want to take an external switch.. I will forget him and wonder then what the fuck is wrong within my patch :-D (more than 100 modules)
Perhaps a logical combo press on the presets page(save mode)?
And then the dedicated preset would flash and when you press it again the sequence will move on? or similar....

Then I still have a workflow question:
I always want to deselect routings but this is only possible by pressing save (func), is it?

What I would like to do in general for fast editing:
- go to route page
- dial in 99
- press some routing positions (1-1,1-2,2-3,2-4,...).
Then I would have value 99 on all selected routings (also if I stepped forward to a new preset and press routing positions - same here)
- then deselect some routing positions by pressing them again
- then dial in a lower value for the remaining selected routing positions
- deselect again
- reduce value
...etc...

I mean just the principle. This way you could activate routings in a running sequence quite fast and intuitively without the immediate need of stopping the sequence.
Dial in 0, at least(don't know of another way, yet) this way you could close routings very fast as well then.

Perhaps this is all possible but I still haven't found the fast workflow yet?
I know I cannot be able to dial in the value first because of the morph setting... perhaps you have some tricks or can think about this?

Looking for the fastest way to clear presets (reset all to 0 and deactivate) as well.

What I try to achieve as well when performing and a sequence (triggers into select) with different routings is running:
- select some routing positions within different presets and alter their value at once to the same value/ activate/deactivate them at once.

My sequence often is rather fast, so I always miss the point when I turn the encoder (or press turn) and get curves instead of stepped changes if you know what I mean.


Thhhhhhhhhaaaaanks for help or enlightening



BTW: very cool module, eye candy and rock solid! like it a lot

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Post by LiveStock Electronics » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:39 am

youkon
very cool module, eye candy and rock solid! like it a lot
Thanks, that means a lot! :tu:

Stopping the sequence
At this moment, it works like a send mixer with fixed settings.
This is exactly what Maze is supposed to be. I always envisioned it as a tool that would allow me to prepare presets at home and use them in a live situation.

I always just take the cable out of the SLCT input when I want to change something. As I imagine that creating an alternate way of stopping the sequence would lead to a lot of confusion for most users. Like: I am sequencing it, why is it not sequencing it? What did I do, how do I undo that? The only button option I can come up with now is holding down a preset. Right now holding down a preset will randomise the routings. You could be able to select a function for holding, you either want to randomise or freeze the preset.

However at this point I am afraid to add functions that will overcomplicate it. All buttons are already linked to a function and adding more things in the Settings is something I don't want. So if I were to add another selection element in the Settings, I will remove one in there too.

Again adding a switch is probably easiest, maybe placing it near Maze as an extension of it. But.. I am not saying no. I will need some time to think about it and will come back to it if I feel it fits in there somewhere.

Deselection
In the first update after release, deselection was added. When you deselect (after selecting a routing position in "Route Mode"), you can have Maze do three things:
- Zero: routing position goes to 0.
- Previous: undo what you did and go back to the previous routing save.
- Current: keep the current setting.

Setting it to "Zero" gives you the fastest way to clear.
Setting it to "Current" gives you exactly the fast editing you are describing.

This part can be set to personal taste as it really depends on your workflow. I always have it set to Current. Then when I have selected routing positions: I use deselection for fast editing, press mute to undo and set it to zero by hand. Setting it to zero by hand is super fast when you hold two routing positions, so everything in between will move too.

Please take a look at the Settings Page in the online manual here

Here you can find the button for the deselection options. If the layout of the matrix in the settings does not match your module's, it is time to update.

I hope to have given you enough info, but of course don't hesitate to ask if you have questions!

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Post by LiveStock Electronics » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:54 am

Took a bit longer than expected because of some computer issues but here it is V1.2!

Added/Changes:
- Fade sequencing method
- Negative triggers for trigger based sequencing methods
- Changed triggers only to HIGH
- Adjusted encoder push sensitivity

Fixed:

- Possible unresponsive 0V in Continuous sequencing
- Pushing matrix holds preset when sequencing first 3 presets in Continuous sequencing

You can download the update from the support page.
I have also updated the Manual, so you should find all the info on the new sequencing functions starting on page 10 headline "Sequencing".

Hope you like it!

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Post by Multi Grooves » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:01 am

Wanted this way back when it was announced. Recently got one. I did the 1.1 update yesterday but then saw v1.2.

Its great to see a dev that's still super active in perfecting their craft. Looking forward to getting time to play.
...but Cynthia, my Daddy never had a heath kit..

FS: SSF Entity

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Post by castano » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:22 pm

Thanks for the update! :)

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Post by youkon » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:26 am

Question again regarding Deselection:

When using "Zero", it does not only deselect the current position but the same position on all other presets as well.
I only want to deselect the actual position (e.g. preset 1, position 1-4. But not 1-4 in preset 2-16 as well)

I love the mute function a lot! very playable.
But I still can't stand programming the Maze (but still love the module).
It takes so much time and when it gets triggered, precision programming for me isn't possible (I have rather fast triggers than slowly ones (16th to 1/2).
Would need to set up the value first and then activate the position. But it is as it is....

What I would expect workflow wise:
Most important: Activate/Deactivate positions (must work most easy)
second important: set the value/amount for the position (should also work precisely for only (a) selected step(s) when the presets get triggered by a sequence. E.g.: let the sequence run, select some positions within all the presets, then change value - value of all selected positions should change.)
third important: set up number of presets, startpoint, morph

When programming it it still feels like having knots in my fingers :-D (not thaaat hard but a little:-D)
I just want to perform with it and not program it and my sequence is always running and when I want to make new changes I always change positions before or/and after the actual position that I want to change. Then I wait one round in order to deselect these positions I didn't want to have or to change and then this position is deselected in all presets and I have to start from scratch :cry: ...so annoying

It's difficult to write this here in english... would be easier explaining when sitting with you at the module, so sorry and hope you can somehow understand my workflow problems

If we take it as it is, most important for me is the deselection question,
Is it intended that when deselecting ("zero") - that this position is deselected then on all presets? I don't like that:-D or am I doing something wrong and it should only deselect that position within the current preset?

My Maze sits in my Make Noise case. Inputs go to 1. dry, 2. Erbe Verb, 3. Echophon, 4. Spring reverb and I want the inputs to hit different outputs only sometimes with lots of dry gaps inbetween in order to have not too much wet efx signal and I like to be able to change some positions on the fly whilst maze is triggered by a step sequence. So, a lot of dry signal and only on some single steps wet signals (hope you understand)

What I want to say: It's very easy to draw curves with Maze, but very hard to draw stepped value changes on the fly and I need the stepped value changes with a lot of value 0 in between and this when Maze is running (trigger)Image
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Post by LiveStock Electronics » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:07 am

Hi youkon!
When using "Zero", it does not only deselect the current position but the same position on all other presets as well.
Thanks for letting me know, as this is a bug. Personally I mainly use the previous setting so I did not notice that. Unfortunately I have uploaded an update v1.2.1 today with a small bug fix. Anyway I will work on fixing it and upload a new update asap.
set the value/amount for the position
So if I understand correctly you want to change a selected preset while the presets are being modulated via CV? If this is the case I may have an idea that works.
set up number of presets, startpoint, morph
This I don't understand. You can already select number of presets, startpoint and morph. In "Save Mode", Number of presets = encoder without push, Sequence startpoint = encoder with push. In "Route Mode", Morph = encoder without selecting routings.

Hope this clears it up a bit. Nice system btw!

Cheers!
Daniel

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Post by youkon » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:31 am

So if I understand correctly you want to change a selected preset while the presets are being modulated via CV

yes, exactly
set up number of presets, startpoint, morph
This I don't understand. You can already select number of presets, startpoint and morph. In "Save Mode", Number of presets = encoder without push, Sequence startpoint = encoder with push. In "Route Mode", Morph = encoder without selecting routings.

yes, I know. Just saying that this isn't as important as activate/deactivate and set value. Access of activate/deactivate/set value should have most priority UI wise
Could you please think about the scenario of define value first and then set the positions? this way you could easily set up the value you want and then press here and there a position whilst the sequence is running.
Then press and hold a position to alter the value of only that position, no matter that the sequence continues or "mark" several positions within several presets and then make settings for all these positions at once.
You would lose "drawing curved lines", I think and have to place the morph setting elsewhere. But the question is: do you need curved lines, as you have morph anyway?

workflow would be:

set encoder to 99 (empty preset = encoder value automatically 99).
activate positions = all activated positions set to 99.
hold an active position and turn encoder = edit value of that position ( no matter if sequence continues)
push position = deselect
that's the fastest way, I think.

The question is how would you then mark or "gang" several positions within several presets at once for combined editing? ( = select several positions within several presets, then turn encoder to new value for all these marked positions, respectively what might be even more interesting: just increase/decrease the existing values by the factor of the encoder value)

will think about it more if you're interested in....

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Post by LiveStock Electronics » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:54 am

Activating and deactivating are already some of the most important functions in the UI, they only require pressing the matrix. So I don’t see how removing some of the encoder functions will make that better. It is logical that in Save mode you change sequencing parameters and in Route mode routing parameters.

I know that the define value first feature is something that would be upsetting to all the Maze users I speak regularly, so that I will definitely not do. As all these users want to hear the change before they go through with it, and want to manually fade routings as well as do morphing. However with a small workaround the workflow you describe is even possible at the moment: 1. Select a routing position, 2. go to the desired setting. 3. Select other positions, 4. Flick the encoder, 5. All routing positions are set to the setting. 6. push matrix button to deselect. 7. Press Func and a new position to start again
Just make sure the encoder response is set to instant.

Now I am against holding of routing positions because being able to select without holding is super effective. You can select multiple routings (more than you ever will with your fingers) and you have a hand spare to do other things. Also holding has already been assigned to fast edit multiple routings at once.

The main problem is that you want to change one preset while sequencing. And I can see how this can be useful, I also have an idea that may work. [Hold the preset in Save Mode and you go to Route mode of that preset while sequencing, in settings you can then choose to assign either randomise or edit function to preset holds.] But I am not sure about this, I will start programming it next week and see if it feels right.

Also I have thought about global routing values while developing, but decided not to go through with it as it would overcomplicate the module, as the module is already pretty complicated as is. Each preset routing setting would then be a value that is relative to the routing settings globally. You would have global routings in the current Route mode and preset routings when holding a preset in Save mode. This may seem cool at first but slows down preset creation terribly! As you will have to wait longer to switch between Route mode and Save mode (for each routing position) and you will forget about the global settings all the time. Global settings may work for some modules but felt more of a hassle than something useful for Maze.

And for the select several positions within several presets, I do not even know where to start tbh.

Will keep you posted!
Daniel

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Post by youkon » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:46 am

Thanks a lot for listening Daniel!!

overcomplicating is not good, definitively.
I will still find my way, I'm sure and as you said that deselecting should actually only deselect one position in only the current preset, it should work much better for me. (long press for deactivate positions in ALL presets and short press for deactivation on only current preset might be interesting as well)
One can't have everything, must always fit the UI etc... so I feel totally ok :tu:

[Hold the preset in Save Mode and you go to Route mode of that preset while sequencing, in settings you can then choose to assign either randomise or edit function to preset holds.] But I am not sure about this, I will start programming it next week and see if it feels right.
interesting! (if not overcomplicating)

However with a small workaround the workflow you describe is even possible at the moment: 1. Select a routing position, 2. go to the desired setting. 3. Select other positions, 4. Flick the encoder, 5. All routing positions are set to the setting. 6. push matrix button to deselect. 7. Press Func and a new position to start again
Just make sure the encoder response is set to instant.
I still don't understand completely.
The sequence is stopped here in this scenario, I think?

I think, all in all, I use this workaround, but am I right that this only works for one preset but not if the sequence is running?

Example: positions 1-1, 2-1, 3-1 and 4-1 are my "dry signals", normally set to 99 exept one input is too loud, so I would attenuate it a little.

My sequence is running.

I want position 1-1 through all presets set to 99.
I push 1-1 and set the encoder via push and turn (in order to be faster as my sequence is running) to 99.
Now, the sequence continues. It arrives preset 2.
In order to activate and get the same value, I turn the encoder one click leftright to catch the last used value. (Respectively with value 99 I keep on turning the encoder CW)
Preset 3 arrives, I keep on turning the encoder CW to catch the value again....
This means, with every new preset, I have to catch the last value with the encoder by turning it one click left or right and back (already getting some value variations here if I'm not fast enough)
Or - for this example - Value 99 - turning the encoder continuously CW until I reached the last preset... turning turning turning....:-)

Now, 1-2, 2-2, 3-2, 4-2 goes to my reverb.
Let's say, we want every second preset to have value 23 for 1-2

I push 1-2, set value to 23 very fast before the next preset arrives, then wait one preset. Now, reaching the third preset, I have to wiggle the encoder 1 click leftright or rightleft to catch the last value and keep on going like this till I reached the last preset, always edit only every second preset.
This means, turning the encoder every second preset one click leftright/rightleft

Here, for me it's annoying to wiggle the encoder all time leftright, as I make tiny mistakes here and would just like to press the same position in the following preset which should get activated with the same value then.

So, if I made a mistake (edit a preset on accident as my sequence is running) I would deselect these positions ("zero") the next round then.

The difficulty now comes if I want to set single positions to a certain value on only some presets.
Here it gets very inaccurate fast and I have to reedit a lot, respectively it's almost impossible (as I have to dial in the correct value but already write the "dial in" into a preset this way).
So, what I do as workaround now, is to "draw a curve" over the complete sequence and all presets for that position (with pushed encoder to obtain bigger differences). In the next round then I have to deselect ("zero") all the positions I want with value 0 again, or set the encoder to 0 and always turn the encoder one click CCW when reaching the desired preset. Now, I still should do some fine adjustments but really have to stop the sequence here (that's why I meant I needed to hold the position and turn encoder in order to "freeze" this edit point as the sequence is running)


The thing is - I better have to do this when the sequence is running in order to hear the timing of the effects in relation to the changing presets

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Post by LiveStock Electronics » Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:39 am

youkon
Okay, sorry it took a bit longer to reply but wanted to reply with some actual news. So here's an update on how this is going. The deselection bug is fixed, no problems there. Will upload update v1.2.2 later this week, just want to do more testing. Also in the update: LED indicator shows Magenta while morphing and Cyan when finished morphing.

Now as for the "hold to change selected preset while sequencing" feature: when I got into it I immediately noticed a contradiction in features. When you press a preset while sequencing, it will jump to the preset. And this is something with a higher priority, but you would not want for the first mentioned feature. Have been wrapping my head around it. :hmm: If I come up with another way I will delay v.1.2.2 otherwise you can expect the fix this week.
The sequence is stopped here in this scenario, I think?
Yeah, the workaround only works when you are not sequencing.
I want position 1-1 through all presets set to 99.
This is actually really easy and does not require you to keep flicking the encoder. 1: Make sure you are sequencing 2: select the routing position. 4: go to the desired setting 5: let it run. Once it has gone through all presets, they should all be that setting. Again use the "instant" setting for the encoder.
Let's say, we want every second preset to have value 23 for 1-2
And this is where it gets tough. It has not been designed to work like that. So coming up with a way now is hard, and any workaround will ultimately not give you the result you are after. So all I can say for now is I will need more time to think about it.

Also in case you haven't checked it out yet. I am thinking the preview/copy mode may be of interest to you.

Cheers!
Daniel

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Post by youkon » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:36 am

thanks a lot for your thoughts Daniel!

I know the preview mode, but it would be only interesting for copying complete presets, I think? No individual position editing possible?

anyway, I'm happy to use MAZE in different ways as well!

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