Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by scragz » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 pm

There are a few for sure! The E352 and Flux are two I know that tout it on their product pages.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by zengomi » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:36 pm

Tomek Mirt wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:44 pm
Most of the problems with faulty encoders in Zadar arise from mechanical problems, we are solving this with some additional washers. Also we've changed supplier for the forthcoming batches. I know it looks like plague, but the problem is with just small percent of all Zadars we've sold. Optical encoders are bulky and very expensive, so it isn't solution. Probably no one in euro world uses them. In my whole studio equipment there is mounted only one in Eventide H3000. If you have any problems with your Zadar please instal new firmware with better filtering and improved acceleration and if it doesn't help contact with our support and we'll replacing encoders and add washer if it is necessary to prevent further problems.
So reasonable.


Full speech set to music.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by SavageMessiah » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:38 pm

scragz wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 pm
There are a few for sure! The E352 and Flux are two I know that tout it on their product pages.
And ER-301. The encoder on that thing is so nice. But just one them would take up like half of a zadar so lol.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Fog Door » Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:11 pm

Always grateful when people highlight issues such as this, it enables one to make an informed choice, which is all you can ask for. Equally good to hear from Xaoc addressing this encoder issue. On balance, it will not stop me acquiring Zadar. I had a Blofeld for years and when I was selling it, quite a few potential buyers did not believe the encoders were perfect and that I had never had one flicker/glitch/skip EVER. However, there was a great thread on MW a while back about encoders that really opened my eyes, cheaper encoders will always be a risk. But life is risk. I don't mean to sound glib about it for those people with issues, I have in the past and no doubt, at some point will again, feel your pain >_<

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Qiqi » Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:29 pm

mvdirty wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:49 am
Qiqi wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:24 pm
One important difference for me is that the Zadar supports saving and recalling envelopes. I think only the Quadigy can do that as well in a small quad-envelope package? Opens up a lot of doors for live performance for me.
I noticed and appreciated the preset functionality in the Zadar manual but did not spot CV control over preset recall.

Would I be correct to assume that you’re fitting this into your performances as a manual action? Or is there a CV control option I’ve missed?
That's right, it requires a manual action. That's totally fine by me though, as it still turns tuning 4 different envelopes to the right shape and lenght while playing live into just 1 button push.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by aber » Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:40 am

I have been hesitating for a long time and have finally bought a Zadar. I am really impressed with it. It is one of the best purchases I have made in eurorack

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by mvdirty » Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:58 am

Tomek Mirt wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:44 pm
Most of the problems with faulty encoders in Zadar arise from mechanical problems, we are solving this with some additional washers. Also we've changed supplier for the forthcoming batches. I know it looks like plague, but the problem is with just small percent of all Zadars we've sold. Optical encoders are bulky and very expensive, so it isn't solution. Probably no one in euro world uses them. In my whole studio equipment there is mounted only one in Eventide H3000. If you have any problems with your Zadar please instal new firmware with better filtering and improved acceleration and if it doesn't help contact with our support and we'll replacing encoders and add washer if it is necessary to prevent further problems.
Thanks for responding, Tomek. I’m sure that some folks would love even more detail, myself included, but I’m certain that your reply goes a long way to making a good many people feel more comfortable, also myself included. ;)

For those who are really concerned, for example those living in locations less convenient from a support perspective, will there be a manufacturing date, batch number, serial number, etc. threshold that people can use to enquire with a retailer before ordering if they want to be certain to get a revised unit?

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by mvdirty » Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:59 am

Qiqi wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:29 pm
That's right, it requires a manual action. That's totally fine by me though, as it still turns tuning 4 different envelopes to the right shape and lenght while playing live into just 1 button push.
Absolutely, that button push would be super helpful. Thanks for confirming my read of the manual!

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Funky40 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:53 pm

Tomek Mirt wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:44 pm
If you have any problems with your Zadar please instal new firmware with better filtering and improved acceleration
is it the 2.02FW ?
....i ask, since the last update was not exactly easy to do :slapfight: / :lol:

SavageMessiah wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:38 pm
scragz wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 pm
There are a few for sure! The E352 and Flux are two I know that tout it on their product pages.
And ER-301. The encoder on that thing is so nice. But just one them would take up like half of a zadar so lol.
add E370 and E352 from synthtech.

a zadar V2 should be built with optical encoders. At least my vote goes there.
these should be bulky ? .....just ask Paul from Synthtech which ones to take, he will gladly point you towards the right product.
Zadars functionality is worth it imho to be built like Paul Schreiber would build it. Take optical encoders please so we can update in good trust.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Sync » Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:36 pm

Tomek Mirt wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:44 pm
Most of the problems with faulty encoders in Zadar arise from mechanical problems, we are solving this with some additional washers. Also we've changed supplier for the forthcoming batches. I know it looks like plague, but the problem is with just small percent of all Zadars we've sold. Optical encoders are bulky and very expensive, so it isn't solution. Probably no one in euro world uses them. In my whole studio equipment there is mounted only one in Eventide H3000. If you have any problems with your Zadar please instal new firmware with better filtering and improved acceleration and if it doesn't help contact with our support and we'll replacing encoders and add washer if it is necessary to prevent further problems.
Actually, not all optical encoders are bulky, take a look at the ones that Synthesis Technology uses, they are only slightly larger than the smallest of mechanical ones-- though theirs does have a small integrated ribbon cable for its connections I've seen ones that have PC-board solder pins, though the ribbon cable ones are easier to find. They're not as cheap as the mechanical ones can be, but they're well worth it IMHO. The fact that the E352 by ST used one is one of the reason I bought it rather than a different wavetable oscillator (that, and the fact that it's got some awesome features). Squeezing four of those into a module the size of a Zadar would no doubt be a challenge, but I'd even give up a little HP in my case and some dollars from my wallet for one like that.

Better software debouncing can certainly help, and I suppose could be making the difference at least in some cases-- the Ornament and Crime I've never had problems with and it's one of my oldest modules. At this point, I'm seeing the reverse-jitter effect mildly (so far) on two of my Zadar's encoders-- I'm currently running v2.0 on it. It's not that bad at this point, if it gets no worse I'll be fine, but it didn't have that jitter when I first got it-- and I'm sensitive to that because I've got three Korg machines that all have it on the main data encoder so I'm all too familiar with the phenomenon. The software for the Ornament and Crime is out there and open source but looking at it to see what they've done is problematic because I think it uses some screen-driver interrupt routines to do some unusual timing things, not for the encoders, but in order to multitask or something (I'm not exactly sure why, but it obfuscates the code).

If Xaoc could be convinced to go to optical encoders, it would add to the list of competitors that have it, and it's a selling point to highlight when selling your module. It would probably be a help to the community in general because it would help to raise awareness and peer-pressure other designers to follow suit...
--

Sync

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Fog Door » Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:25 am

Please, please, please do not switch to optical encoders if it means making Zadar anything like the size/price of an E352 :lol:

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Sync » Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:30 am

Fog Door wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:25 am
Please, please, please do not switch to optical encoders if it means making Zadar anything like the size/price of an E352 :lol:
Hopefully it wouldn’t be quite as bad as that, but if you’ve ever had equipment rendered useless by a flaky encoder you might change your tune.
--

Sync

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Fog Door » Tue Nov 03, 2020 1:46 pm

you might change your tune
I don't think so. Price/size/reliability/known issues, all factors for the consumer to consider before choosing to make a purchase. Sometimes you are lucky, sometimes you are unlucky, and I've been on both sides of that fence. In synthesiser heaven, all synths have the highest quality, most reliable components but manufacturers have many other considerations, you don't need me to tell you that.

However, I respect your point of view and your post was both interesting and informative and it was not my intention to diminish or disrespect it with my light hearted comment. If that is how it came across, I sincerely apologise :tu:

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Kattefjaes » Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:55 am

mvdirty wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:58 am
For those who are really concerned, for example those living in locations less convenient from a support perspective, will there be a manufacturing date, batch number, serial number, etc. threshold that people can use to enquire with a retailer before ordering if they want to be certain to get a revised unit?
Yep, that would be useful. It feels like it's a module you only want to buy from someone domestic, so that when it develops a fault, it can be dealt with easily too.

However, yes, it'd be nice to know what the distinguishing marks are for the ones that have had the attempted modification. It certainly feels dicey to buy a used one, or import one right now.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by danam0 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:56 pm

Mr. Roboto wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:38 am
I do have an issue with my new Zdar (Firmware v2.0.1). Using longer cycle times (i.e. 600s) the looping (infinity) will not work anymore after a while.

Anyone having a similiar issue?
Yes same version and envelopes stop looping for me when running at 600s+ despite being set on infinity. Very annoying.

I've also noticed that when the time is set around 950+, the envelopes will often freeze and stop progressing altogether.

The only work-arounds I've found for these involve briefly turning the time below 200s and back up. More micromanaging than I'd like. If others have found a solution, I'd be eager to hear it.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by studio460 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:58 am

Just racked-up my new Zadar. This is the most instantly-fun and easy-to-grasp module ever. Some of the presets are insane! I got instant-crazy-machine-drone out of one preset, sending the 'A' and 'B' outputs modulating position and pitch on my Supercell, and the 'C' output sent to the Varispeed input on my Phonogene. This module packs a lot of value—you get FOUR super-EGs coming out of one box! I might need to get two!
Last edited by studio460 on Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Benoist » Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:16 am

I have one for LFOs, one for EGs ;)
All presets slots filled with levels out 5V , 8V, 10V and shapes chosen at strategic points so less knobing as possible.

Even with NIN I'am frustrated so I wouldn't mind an alternate( not a replacement ) and obviously more expensive version with more mod inputs because of the 10 parameters that could be modulated ( 1010 modules inspired ) bigger screen if cost is bareable.
But also :
Quick reset of chosen channel shape to original ( so manually tedious to do it right now if you have mangled it to the max ).
Wrap around of shapes to be able to go from 270 to 1 or the reverse painlessly.
User chosen reordering of shapes uploadable or at least factory rearranging because of those ADish shapes spread all other the place for instance.
2 chains " summed " outputs so that if you choose the last algo, one is for AB and the other for CD
-10V to 10V output range.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by vilovisp » Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:54 pm

i love mine to death , but the encoders are a nightmare :sstorm:

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by studio460 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:08 pm

vilovisp wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:54 pm
i love mine to death , but the encoders are a nightmare :sstorm:
Well, so far (24 hours!) my encoders have been fine (fingers-crossed!). At least Xaoc has chimed-in here and stands behind their product. Just send it in, and they'll do what they can to resolve the issue. Plus, they have a new supplier for encoders going forward. Not sure I made that cut-off, but I bought mine just last week from Detroit Modular which I assume has high-turnover.
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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Fog Door » Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:26 am

Any idea when we might see some more uk stock of Zadar? Just looking for a broad indication - a month, 3 months, 6 months?

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by loydb » Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:13 am

The manual doesn't have firmware update instructions. Anyone have a link? Thanks!

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by banalytic » Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:27 am

the redame.txt file is in the update-files...

"Xaoc Zadar firmware revision 2.0.2
==================================

The new firmware revision has been written from scratch and adds a slew of features listed below. The 2.0.0 version comes pre-installed on 2019 Zadar units. However, it is fully compatible with pre-2019 units as well.

The 2.0.1 firmware update fixes some behaviour specific to the Nin expander - it is recommended to make the update to 2.0.1 version only if you're experiencing problems with the Nin expander. The 2.0.2 firmware introduces more aggressive debouncing for old encoders, at the cost of more conservative acceleration.

NEW FEATURES:

2.0.1 Version:
- Small fix to improve stability of Nin CV inputs for 2019 batch of Zadar
- Nin buttons and gate signals restart envelopes independently of each other

2.0 Version:
- Sustain
- Freeze
- Quick Save
- Copy Settings
- Screen Saver
- Shape Bank Z, "Glitch and Hold" by Richard Devine
- Nin expander module support

To find out more about Zadar and Nin functionality, please download the latest manual file from www.xaocdevices.com/support.


INSTALLATION:

(Note: there is an optional bootloader update that has to be be installed _before_ the main firmware. If you decide to update the firmware, we recommend to update the bootloader first. See below for details)

The firmware update file is a long (about 15min) .wav file that needs to be played very loudly and without any interruptions into the TRIG A input (the first channel) of Zadar. Please note that the update erases all previous code (if you update from 1.0 version the presets will be lost as well). Once first package is received and written, there is no going back. The audio update method is reliable, but not bullet proof. You can repeat your attempts, but in the case something goes very wrong and your unit is bricked (bootloader inaccessible), you will have to send it back for reflashing.

First of all, you need to get to the maintenance menu by powering up your system with the red Menu button pressed on your Zadar. Select the "System Update” option and then play your audio. The best method proven to work is to go from a headphone output of an audio interface directly to Zadar. Set the volume loud, but not necessarily all the way up (it really depends on the particular device). Remember to turn off all system notifications as they will certainly spoil the transmission. Use a simple software for audio playback, not a DAW or a sampler, because they tend to change the sampling rate on the fly or introduce dynamic range processing. FYI, the file is 48kHz.

The received packet counter should increase after each part of the file up to 47. After that, the unit should reboot automatically. It needs about 40-50secs to clear the old Flash content and initialize presets, please do not interrupt this process by powering off. After that the unit will go straight to main screen.

In case of an error the procedure breaks and shows a message. Pressing the red button allows to restart the upload. Please stay calm and do not make a mistake of playing the file from the middle, or starting the playback before initiating the process on your Zadar. This may brick your module.

There is a small bug in the maintenance menu that distorts the version number and displays garbage instead. We are sorry about that, the bootloader update fixes it.


Bootloader update is optional, but strongly recommended. It increases the immunity to errors when reading the main firmware file. It also corrects the version display bug. If you decide to perform bootloader update, you have to do it _before_ updating the firmware, because it overwrites the flash memory. The procedure is identical to firmware update described above, but the .wav file is much shorter (about 1min). Note: if you decide to update the bootloader, the module will not be operational until you perform the firmware update.




NOTE: You need to perform calibration of the unit after updating the firmware from 1.0, because old calibration data is incompatible. You need a precise source of 5.00V and one patch cable. Select Calibrate from the maintenance menu and follow the instructions on the screen. Calibration is probably not needed if you update from 2.0.1 or 2.0

When in doubt, please contact support@xaocdevices.com.

HAVE FUN!
"

you should use a audio-interface as recommended!!! ... mobile-phone or tablet didn't work in my case. the output is not loud/strong enough!!!

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by giantmecha » Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:54 am

Question about Zadar, apologies if it's been answered already: Can all four envelopes be looping at high speed/audio rate, and also be modulated, without any sort of noticeable slowdown/hiccups? Thanks!

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by johannes » Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:13 pm

sure you can use all four envs in loop mode so they work as dco´s but they wont go as high(freq) as a propper vco/dco. and yes u can cv env length to influence their pitch or cv warp/response to do waveshaping. not sure how good it tracks v/oct thou ... search this thread for more infos. ;)

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by loydb » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:18 am

Thanks for the firmware notes!

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