Instruō - Cš-L complex oscillator [CS-L]

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racooniac
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Post by racooniac » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:58 am

zerodivide wrote:I think my CS-L is possibly defective. When no modulation is on, and both FM knobs are at 0, I'm hearing Oscillator A bleed through into Oscillator B, when I pipe out Final B alone to my mixer. Any ideas guys? Here's a video to show you what I mean:

my cs-l shows exactly the same behaviour as zerodivides, could maybe any cs-l owner chime in?
Last edited by racooniac on Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:07 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by zerodivide » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:09 pm

So it appears most users (if not all) that I've talked to have this to varying degrees. And here's the reply I got from Jason from Instruo:


"There is a certain degree of bleed that can occur on the wave folder outputs.
The nature of two frequency generating analogue oscillators in such close proximity.
Have you measured the s/n ratio on your particular unit?

During development I got the cross talk signal to sit at about -72dB compared to the FINAL output’s main audible signal.

One thing to keep in mind regarding the FINAL outputs. The faders do control the signal’s folding depth at an exponential response, so it does reduce amplitude to near silence in its far left position.
This wave shaping is not a VCA in the traditional sense. It doesn’t fully replace the traditional oscillator -> VCA signal flow for silencing tones.

The cross talk with be slightly more prominent from the sawtooth core (top) to the bottom.
Sawtooth core circuits are very aggressive.
One of my main comparisons during development was to compare the crosstalk between the two onboard oscillators to bleed from a separate analogue oscillator module to the Cš-L through the bus board.
It was surprisingly little difference. I was measuring between -76 to -82dB difference in that case."

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Post by zerodivide » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:11 pm

fjoesz wrote:and link & lfo button

your ofset is not right in the middle so maybe that's why this happens?
offset not being in the middle has nothing to do with it since theres no cross-modulation enabled on my test

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Post by fjoesz » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:00 pm

you typed earlier :

"how am I sending sine out of A to B here? Cross-modulation of Wavefolding between A and B is supposed to only happen if the Mod or Sub Button are "on" when holding down the index button. Wavefolding modulation from A to B isn't happening, I'm actually hearing Oscillator A through B's output."

if your link button is lit while holding index button it does have something to do with it. so, maybe you've forgotten that one

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Post by pinMode » Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:45 am

Hi Folks,

Just got caught up on this thread. I’m not on Muffs too often (time is largely consumed at present with a couple of particular audio manipulation modules…)
I’ve had a couple of emails asking about audible crosstalk in certain configurations. One linked to this thread over the weekend. We’re quite a few pages deep!

Bear with me for a bit of background:
The Cš-L is almost entirely analogue (small digital component for reading buttons and remembering the routing states between power cycles).
The wavefolders are a newer iteration of my wavefolding experiments. I developed it for the module to give a more exponential response over the timbre circuit compared to its older siblings.
The benefit being a much wider range of control. Folding farther and reducing below ‘foldable’ amplitudes.
One aspect to bear in mind is that this fold control isn’t designed to replace the traditional Oscillator -> VCA patching for achieving silence on a constant tone.
It won’t fully mute the output signal, but will lower the sine wave’s amplitude at the folding network. Depending on symmetry position this can result in an essentially muted signal.
This, however, all occurs before the wavefolding network, which by nature uses a s**t tonne of gain! Any noise floor in the system will still be running through these gain stages, which can be accentuated depending on symmetry bias.

In practice the folders can work very well for percussive voices, any noise floor gets masked within the larger patch.
It’s more of a bonus effect being able to mute. Much in the same way that pushing the PWM past 0% or 100% will give you silence. Audible silence yes but the downside being a DC offset summed into the mix, depending on the patch of course!

Now, with regards to crosstalk, this is a factor much in the same way as system noise floor when the fader is low.
There can be audible crosstalk when the module is in certain frequency ranges. This was an apparent behaviour during development.
Analogue oscillator cores are noisy circuits by design! I did a lot of research into what standard levels of s/n ratios and crosstalk over shared bus boards are in typically Eurorack setups.
I measured signal levels between modules sat adjacent on the bus board. I would use reference of a sawtooth at 1KHz to set 0dB on an FFT.
Using these same monitoring settings I would look at a wavefolder output with the folder reduced fully.
A neighbouring oscillator can be seen/heard at around -80dB below the signal reference. (Lower than I’d expected to be honest! But certainly audible)
I did need to crank monitors a bit to hear all this clearly.
I performed these comparisons between a wide range of modules and results were all much of a muchness. The highest level I measured hit at -76dB.

I did all this with first prototype revisions of the Cš-L.
Next step was to measure the same s/n comparison of the module’s other internal oscillator.
When I re-engaged the other core, the measurements came in at -70dB difference.
Higher than an external oscillator of course, this due entirely to the close proximity of the circuitry and the sharing of a single power point.

These were all measurements taken on the original Cš-L prototype. Revisions gained an extra regulator and more extensive ’star’ power distribution between the elements of the two oscillator cores and wavefolder sections.
This brought the measurable difference down to between -72dB to -76dB across the frequency range. So it’s in the ballpark of module crosstalk.

In practical terms. There is crosstalk, but within comparable levels to that between separate modules sharing a single power bus.
To hear the crosstalk, the modular needs to be patched in very particular ways to do so. Monitoring the FINAL output direct with output level cranked until hearing the noise floor.
As soon as you start bringing up the wavefolder fader to produce the actual oscillator’s FINAL signal, you’re going to have to turn your mixer way down very quickly! Or wear earplugs/potentially blow your monitors!
I found very quickly during development that the crosstalk is only an issue if the voices are configured and monitored as test tones at fixed frequencies.
As soon as the Cš-L is patched within more musical contexts the oscillators are designed specifically to cross modulate each other and purposefully bleed into the other’s wavefolder for production of complex waveforms.
I think it was a Doepfer manual that I read at some point that has a great disclaimer stating that the modules are designed for musical/creative purposes and are not recommended as lab test equipment!

I hope this helps.
Happy patching!
Cheers!
Jason

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Post by synonymist » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:42 am

pinMode wrote:I think it was a Doepfer manual that I read at some point that has a great disclaimer stating that the modules are designed for musical/creative purposes and are not recommended as lab test equipment!
Thanks for taking time to explain in such detail, Jason. Doepfer, I'm not sure. (I checked my A-110-4 manual, which didn't have it). But the Make Noise STO manual has such a statement:

"The STO is a 100% analog musical instrument that is not suitable for laboratory use."


Last night my Cš-L did double duty. I used its ring mod to process an external oscillator, with one of its oscillators as the modulator; while its other oscillator provided a solid and nuanced bass line. What a workhorse the Cš-L is. A great-sounding one. :)

EDIT: What a tease. Here are the tracks, with semi-detailed session notes:



Last edited by synonymist on Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by The Grump » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:31 am

Easter Egg Found: try looking at the Cs-L under black light.

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Post by sendepause » Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:12 am

The Grump wrote:Easter Egg Found: try looking at the Cs-L under black light.
Picture? (...cause i don't have a black light...)
:party:

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Post by Orwell » Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:43 am

Got my hands on one today! Favourite euorack OSC, hands down! Instruo have knocked it out of the park. A remarkable, and out there, complex VCO and up there in terms of sound, functions and the analog quality of the buchla 259 and 261e. It is a beast and an utter bargain. Such a lush sounding complex analog osc.
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Post by fjoesz » Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:20 am

it is SICK

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Post by zerodivide » Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:22 pm

Orwell wrote:Got my hands on one today! Favourite euorack OSC, hands down! Instruo have knocked it out of the park. A remarkable, and out there, complex VCO and up there in terms of sound, functions and the analog quality of the buchla 259 and 261e. It is a beast and an utter bargain. Such a lush sounding complex analog osc.
I love my CSL but I think its quite different than a Buchla. I would say its modern and unique. My Verbos sounds way more Buchla-ish

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Post by Orwell » Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:38 pm

[quote="

I love my CSL but I think its quite different than a Buchla. I would say its modern and unique. My Verbos sounds way more Buchla-ish[/quote]

Which buchla VCO are you referring to? 259, 261e, 259, 258verbos

I chose the CSL over the verbos complex because every-time i sit down with verbos for a demo, it reminds me a lot of a heavy 258V - kinda like two 258vs strapped together.
Verbos is great but i have never really digged the timbre.

Reference wise/Buchla sound wise, I think the CSL is closest to the 261e in nature. A bit of the 259, a bit easel in there, there's a bit of dpo in there. The CSL wavefolders are fab.

I agree with what you are saying about doing its own thing and its versatility........ the CSL is its own thing like a DPO or futher vco.
James Joyce was a synthesizer, trying to bring in as much as he could. I am an analyzer, trying to leave out as much as I can.
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Post by zerodivide » Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:43 am

Orwell wrote: Reference wise/Buchla sound wise, I think the CSL is closest to the 261e in nature. A bit of the 259, a bit easel in there, there's a bit of dpo in there. The CSL wavefolders are fab.

I agree with what you are saying about doing its own thing and its versatility........ the CSL is its own thing like a DPO or futher vco.
funny how we all perceive things differently. I def prefer my Verbos over the CS-L. But since its a lot more limited I'm keeping both. You may be right about the 261e as I'm not as familiar with that one. Verbos sounds similar to Music Easel's oscillator to me

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Post by synonymist » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:05 am

Here are two new tracks based on one patch (for a change). In each of them, all sounds except the percussive tap are either Cš-L heard directly (via VCA or LPG) or processed (via Rings or the pedal called Count to 5). Session notes are at each track's webpage:



Last edited by synonymist on Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by synonymist » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:08 pm

Here is Cš-L with friends again, processed via Rings for a bifurcated drone and by the pedal called Count to 5 for texture. But really it is simply being big and multifarious. Apart from Rings in the drone, Cš-L was the only primary sound source. Session notes are at the track's webpage:


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Re: Instruō - Cš-L complex oscillator [CS-L]

Post by prphnc » Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:25 pm

I want to spread a little Cs-L love.
All sounds have their origin in Cs-L.


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Re: Instruō - Cš-L complex oscillator [CS-L]

Post by zerodivide » Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:48 am

Just had a thought:
how come with the internal modulation, Instruo didn't make the LFO and Link buttons map to the FM inputs since those are the closest? Would have made it so much easier to remember, no? Instead they cross all the way over to affect the Symmetry Bias. Sync and Ring cross over to affect the FM inputs instead of the nearby Symmetry. Strange! :)

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Re: Instruō - Cš-L complex oscillator [CS-L]

Post by SavageMessiah » Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:04 pm

I think the idea may have been that the symmetry of the buttons in the 4 corners would match the symmetry of the 4 inputs to the wave folders, making it easier to remember. Then for the other two it's just that the top one goes to the top fm and vice versa. It makes a certain degree of sense.

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Re: Instruō - Cš-L complex oscillator [CS-L]

Post by zerodivide » Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:17 am

SavageMessiah wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:04 pm
I think the idea may have been that the symmetry of the buttons in the 4 corners would match the symmetry of the 4 inputs to the wave folders, making it easier to remember. Then for the other two it's just that the top one goes to the top fm and vice versa. It makes a certain degree of sense.
woah now that you say it that way its totally clicked into my memory . This is extremely helpful. I think I just never even saw it that way cause I always have so many cables blocking the module I didnt notice that. thanks!!

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Re: Instruō - Cš-L complex oscillator [CS-L]

Post by zerodivide » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:43 am

kind of surprised at how little chatter there is about such a complex module. I was curious how you guys are using your CS-L typically.
I like to sum one of the oscillators with the multiply output with some FM to create a super rich sound. Would love some new ideas though.
Is anybody routing stuff manually rather than the normaled Sine Waves?

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Re: Instruō - Cš-L complex oscillator [CS-L]

Post by drxcm » Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:17 am

Ok this thread caused me to order one. Arriving next week and can’t wait. Just got Arbhar and was so impressed I had to get more Instruo!

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Re: Instruō - Cš-L complex oscillator [CS-L]

Post by studioutopia » Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:36 pm

zerodivide wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:43 am
kind of surprised at how little chatter there is about such a complex module. I was curious how you guys are using your CS-L typically.
I like to sum one of the oscillators with the multiply output with some FM to create a super rich sound. Would love some new ideas though.
Is anybody routing stuff manually rather than the normaled Sine Waves?
This is what I currently have patched up tonight:
- Square out of upper VCO into multiplier
- Final output of lower VCO into multiplier,
- multiplier in Ring Mod mode (light off)
- PWM of lower VCO into lower symmetry input
- Sub out and triangle out on lower VCO mixed into a VCA and into lower wavefolder (set sub to -1OCT, white)
- Drive the external VCA with an short AR envelope, triggered at keyOn
- Set FM on upper VCO to around 10:00, lower VCO FM set to 12:00 (linear for both).

I am taking the MULTIPLY output into an LXd Lowpass gate being used as a VCA, with an ASR envelope from Falistri
After the LXd, I am passing it into I-o47 low pass filter, with the same AR envelope on the symmetry VCA setup pushing a little spike in the cutoff.
Both VCOs have their V/Oct inputs linked. Tune the VCO's to a ratio that sounds good to you (this is one part that has to be done either by ear or with Mordax DATA) . I have the upper VCO at about 11:30, and the lower VCO at around 11:00, and with a bit of fine tuning I am getting a decent G out of this.
Changing from Ring mod to Amplitude Modulation on the Multiply output adds a substantial bass boost - Rectification even more so.
Substitute any filter, dual envelope generator and VCA/LPG of your choice.
Without the Symmetry drive it sounds great, but a little too smooth. With this you can add a metallic ripple into the attack of the note.

I LOVE THIS OSCILLATOR.

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Re: Instruō - Cš-L complex oscillator [CS-L]

Post by zerodivide » Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:35 pm

studioutopia wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:36 pm

This is what I currently have patched up tonight:
- Square out of upper VCO into multiplier
- Final output of lower VCO into multiplier,
- multiplier in Ring Mod mode (light off)
- PWM of lower VCO into lower symmetry input
- Sub out and triangle out on lower VCO mixed into a VCA and into lower wavefolder (set sub to -1OCT, white)
- Drive the external VCA with an short AR envelope, triggered at keyOn
- Set FM on upper VCO to around 10:00, lower VCO FM set to 12:00 (linear for both).

I am taking the MULTIPLY output into an LXd Lowpass gate being used as a VCA, with an ASR envelope from Falistri
After the LXd, I am passing it into I-o47 low pass filter, with the same AR envelope on the symmetry VCA setup pushing a little spike in the cutoff.
Both VCOs have their V/Oct inputs linked. Tune the VCO's to a ratio that sounds good to you (this is one part that has to be done either by ear or with Mordax DATA) . I have the upper VCO at about 11:30, and the lower VCO at around 11:00, and with a bit of fine tuning I am getting a decent G out of this.
Changing from Ring mod to Amplitude Modulation on the Multiply output adds a substantial bass boost - Rectification even more so.
Substitute any filter, dual envelope generator and VCA/LPG of your choice.
Without the Symmetry drive it sounds great, but a little too smooth. With this you can add a metallic ripple into the attack of the note.

I LOVE THIS OSCILLATOR.
sounds like my kind of patch! I'm low pass gating the hell of it. somehow never tried to put stuff into multiplier! never thought to even do that. you have a video of what it sounds like btw?

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Re: Instruō - Cš-L complex oscillator [CS-L]

Post by studioutopia » Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:10 pm

zerodivide wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:35 pm
studioutopia wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:36 pm

This is what I currently have patched up tonight:
- Square out of upper VCO into multiplier
- Final output of lower VCO into multiplier,
- multiplier in Ring Mod mode (light off)
- PWM of lower VCO into lower symmetry input
- Sub out and triangle out on lower VCO mixed into a VCA and into lower wavefolder (set sub to -1OCT, white)
- Drive the external VCA with an short AR envelope, triggered at keyOn
- Set FM on upper VCO to around 10:00, lower VCO FM set to 12:00 (linear for both).

I am taking the MULTIPLY output into an LXd Lowpass gate being used as a VCA, with an ASR envelope from Falistri
After the LXd, I am passing it into I-o47 low pass filter, with the same AR envelope on the symmetry VCA setup pushing a little spike in the cutoff.
Both VCOs have their V/Oct inputs linked. Tune the VCO's to a ratio that sounds good to you (this is one part that has to be done either by ear or with Mordax DATA) . I have the upper VCO at about 11:30, and the lower VCO at around 11:00, and with a bit of fine tuning I am getting a decent G out of this.
Changing from Ring mod to Amplitude Modulation on the Multiply output adds a substantial bass boost - Rectification even more so.
Substitute any filter, dual envelope generator and VCA/LPG of your choice.
Without the Symmetry drive it sounds great, but a little too smooth. With this you can add a metallic ripple into the attack of the note.

I LOVE THIS OSCILLATOR.
sounds like my kind of patch! I'm low pass gating the hell of it. somehow never tried to put stuff into multiplier! never thought to even do that. you have a video of what it sounds like btw?
Zerodivide-
You haven't lived until you use the multiplier!! hahahaaa
I was just about to unpatch it, so I whipped up a soundcloud track for you and MW listeners. I'm just noodling on a keyboard, and messing around with the attack and release times (I expanded the patch) of the EG to the , LPG, symmetry and the FM to the filter. At the end I added some fall pitch CV slew limiting for extra fun.
Enjoy!

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Re: Instruō - Cš-L complex oscillator [CS-L]

Post by zerodivide » Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:17 pm

its funny I saw an older video of mine and it used to patch into it yet somehow forgot about it

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