Steady State Fate Muton 8 channel VCA

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analogPedagog
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Post by analogPedagog » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:13 am

Joe. wrote:Soft/Hard mute usually refer to group muting functions on a mixer, clickless refers to the way it's built (eg with a zero crossing threshold detector) to avoid pops.

If it it's clickless, is there a limit to how fast I can switch the mutes on/off using the cv inputs?
To clarify, the muting function is clickless and CV controls the VCA.

If you want to use faster CV without clicks, I would opt to use a sine or triangle wave or a fast envelope rather than a square wave. Or slew the gate/pulse you are using to modulate.

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Foghorn
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Post by Foghorn » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:28 am

I have heard about the situation with respect to electronic parts from another source.
I work at a research lab, and the EEs here tell me that they will design a control system, and by the time they are having boards made,
some parts and especially capacitors are no longer available or are a "will ship in 14 months" type of thing.
.
I fear that things are going to get worse.

Foghorn

I just ordered a bunch of parts for a PSU and the 1N4004s are backordered :confused:

Waiting, waiting for a mute-on
I'm not sure what's going on, but, well ah crap..what now?
.......Not really a musician.......

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Artaos
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Post by Artaos » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:26 pm

analogPedagog is muting using CV inputs also clickless on the Muton, or is it just the buttons?

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gummyboy
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Post by gummyboy » Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:57 am

10hp..... :bang:

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pieter
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Post by pieter » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:01 am

gummyboy wrote:10hp..... :bang:
8 VCAs in 10 hp with mixing and mute buttons... not sure what the problem is here. Any smaller and you would have to use a knitting pin to press the mute buttons.

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gummyboy
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Post by gummyboy » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:47 am

Aha......8 VCAs...

I thought those CV inputs control mute button. like 0 and 1..

So if all the mute buttons in unmute state, I can use it as 8 VCAs. :yay: :yay:

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Post by desolationjones » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:50 am

Artaos wrote:analogPedagog is muting using CV inputs also clickless on the Muton, or is it just the buttons?
analogPedagog wrote:If you want to use faster CV without clicks, I would opt to use a sine or triangle wave or a fast envelope rather than a square wave. Or slew the gate/pulse you are using to modulate.
Based on comment above: like any other VCA*, under CV control there can be clicks. There is no built-in slew limiter / shaping on incoming CV, nor zero-crossing detection. So if you feed a steep enough CV in, you will hear a click. Lower frequency material will click more noticeably.

*there are "clickless" VCAs, like WMD's, which rely on zero-crossing detection to avoid clicks.

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pieter
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Post by pieter » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:36 am

So analogPedagog, do you have a target price for the MUTON yet?

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analogPedagog
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Post by analogPedagog » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:43 am

gummyboy wrote:Aha......8 VCAs...

I thought those CV inputs control mute button. like 0 and 1..

So if all the mute buttons in unmute state, I can use it as 8 VCAs. :yay: :yay:
exactly.

8 discrete transistor VCAs with burr-brown op amp output and summing stages. CV controls VCAs with no max frequency limiting.
Will output full scale with an 8-10V CV, typical of most envelopes.

nominal input level is 10Vpp and the transistor inputs may be overdriven beyond that level to result in a vacuum tube-like soft saturation effect - emphasis on mid-low frequencies.

Output headroom is a bit higher than normal as it is approximately rail to rail.

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Post by gentle_attack » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:18 am

pieter wrote:As far as I understand from the panel, there is no CV control over the mute button.
Well you could slam it all shut by closing the last VCA... Or other groupings .... You just would have less than 8 'real' channels if you need to do that.
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Post by gb2 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:49 am

Maybe I missed it, but are the outs sending static voltages when there's nothing patched into the input?

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Post by analogPedagog » Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:57 pm

pieter wrote:So analogPedagog, do you have a target price for the MUTON yet?
$249

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Post by pieter » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:10 pm

Thanks, I can't wait!

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Post by analogPedagog » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:24 pm

gb2 wrote:Maybe I missed it, but are the outs sending static voltages when there's nothing patched into the input?
the outputs will send out 0V when nothing is patched into any of the inputs. Works like a normal VCA.

What is different from a normal VCA is that you do not need to patch a CV into the CV input to keep the VCA turned on.
An internal voltage is normalized to the CV input jack to keep the VCAs open. Once you patch a CV in, it will take over the amplitude modulation duties for each channel.

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Post by gb2 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:27 pm

analogPedagog wrote:
gb2 wrote:Maybe I missed it, but are the outs sending static voltages when there's nothing patched into the input?
the outputs will send out 0V when nothing is patched into any of the inputs. Works like a normal VCA.

What is different from a normal VCA is that you do not need to patch a CV into the CV input to keep the VCA turned on.
An internal voltage is normalized to the CV input jack to keep the VCAs open. Once you patch a CV in, it will take over the amplitude modulation duties for each channel.
OK, thank you!

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Post by Multi Grooves » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:06 pm

pieter wrote:I have noticed that some smd parts have become scarce on mouser, I didn't know this was a larger trend. And the price drop due to higher demand is just messed up! I will continue to buy modules only from small, responsible sellers, and I am happy to pay a premium to keep the ecosystem healthy. Unfortunately, price is a strong motivator for most people, even if the savings are only a few euros.

I really hope you and the other manufacturers will pull through. Worst case scenario from this "consumer's" point of view is that in ten years we all assemble our racks with modules from only three or four manufacturers. Without the diversity there is no eurorack.
Wierd irony as that was the state of things when I got my first gear 20years back.
...but Cynthia, my Daddy never had a heath kit..

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Post by Foghorn » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:45 am

In looking at the panel and thinking, another variant of Muton might be to have shaft controls instead of the jacks for CV in.
Acting like simple attenuators but actually voltage sources for the VCAs
.
That would really make it a performance mute/mixer.


Waiting. patiently waiting.

As I stab my Mute 4

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Post by FatKingTubby » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:55 pm

I feel like this thing should be coming out any day now I hope :hyper:

Regarding the cascade summing of each channel and some self-patching...say I have 4 channels of audio going into inputs 1-4. With nothing else patched, Output 4 will give me a summed audio signal that's made up of inputs 1-4 all equally weighted. Now if I patch output 4 into input 5, and add another audio signal to input 6, the output of 6 is giving me a signal that is 50% outputs 1-4 (ie output 5) and 50% output 6.

Without repatching output 4 to input 5, I would just have an equally balanced signal of the 5 audio sources, instead of one where the 5th signal takes up half of the sound.

Of course I could get the balance I want between the 5 audio signals by changing their CV inputs, but this workaround will essentially achieve the same thing but with more exact ratios between each signal.

Am I understanding this correctly or is this not the case?

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pieter
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Post by pieter » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:52 am

That sounds plausible, but you wouldn't perceive the four pre-mixed channels as half as loud, due to the nonlinear nature of human hearing.

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Post by Dogma » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:56 am

its out and it looks amazing. 100%
from Andrew:
8 discrete linear VCAs in 10hp w/mutes. The VCAs have a subtle warm character that sounds great with both analog and digital signals. They are DC coupled as well so you can use this with CV sources as well!
look up!

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Post by analogPedagog » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:52 am

FatKingTubby wrote:I feel like this thing should be coming out any day now I hope :hyper:

Regarding the cascade summing of each channel and some self-patching...say I have 4 channels of audio going into inputs 1-4. With nothing else patched, Output 4 will give me a summed audio signal that's made up of inputs 1-4 all equally weighted. Now if I patch output 4 into input 5, and add another audio signal to input 6, the output of 6 is giving me a signal that is 50% outputs 1-4 (ie output 5) and 50% output 6.

Without repatching output 4 to input 5, I would just have an equally balanced signal of the 5 audio sources, instead of one where the 5th signal takes up half of the sound.

Of course I could get the balance I want between the 5 audio signals by changing their CV inputs, but this workaround will essentially achieve the same thing but with more exact ratios between each signal.

Am I understanding this correctly or is this not the case?
You are right about the patching configuration, and each channel is equally weighted.


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Foghorn
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Post by Foghorn » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:07 pm

Dogma wrote:-SNIP- SNIP- SNIP...........They are DC coupled as well so you can use this with CV sources as well!


Perfect.

Foghorn

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Post by BlackDoors » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:15 pm

Mine is here! Looks the absolute business, I can’t wait to patch it over the weekend.

8 vcas with normalised cascading mixing plus mute push buttons in 10hp, think I’ll love it!

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Post by soon_come » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:29 pm

Just got one. Haven't tried testing it yet, except for power on. Why does mine remember the inversion of its state? If I press mutes for certain channels, it powers back on with those mutes unmuted and vice versa. I can literally power cycle and alternate mute states. Someone either forgot an inverter or added an extra one (???).

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