Random Source 2017 Serge Ring

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gummyboy
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Post by gummyboy » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:10 pm

Wow....How long did it take? I tried for about 15-20mins.

I am searching for trimmer adjustment tool. Flat driver was killing me..... :bang:

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SlyFrank
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Post by SlyFrank » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:45 pm

gummyboy wrote:Wow....How long did it take? I tried for about 15-20mins.

I am searching for trimmer adjustment tool. Flat driver was killing me..... :bang:
I used one of those mini-screwdrivers. I think they call them jeweler's screwdrivers or something like that. They are not only very small (it fits perfectly on the trimmer head), but you can push on it with your palm as the end of the handle rotates freely.

As for how long it took me, I'd say at least an hour, but I took a couple of breaks - squinting into my magnifying glass at the O-Toole+ got annoying...

The two bottom trimmers are endless, so they can be turned a long way. Try going to an extreme and then coming back to a more middle position - that helps to visualize what each trimmer is doing.

Good luck :party:

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Post by Navs » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:18 am

Gummyboy, I'd echo what has been said and encourage you to use simple, clean waveforms for visual calibration - it is unclear what is going on with that DPO waveform.

A RM is a multiplier, similar to a VCA. The difference is its ability to 'negatively amplify' a signal. This is why it is important to know the test signals you are using. If they are offset - i.e. not perfectly symmetrical around zero volts - then the result of the multiplication will be skewed.

Patch one signal into your scope to see how well balanced it is before using it to calibrate your ring modulator.

A method to calibrate a RM by ear is to start by using one input only: if you patch your sine into input X and listen to the RM's output, can you hear the sine? Try the other input. Even on a well calibrated RM, you will be able to hear the signal/carrier without a modulator but it should be *very* quiet.

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Navs
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Post by Navs » Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:44 pm

gummyboy wrote: Image
What are the levels of your signals?
RANDOM*SOURCE wrote: [img]Feed a 5V pp signal into SIGNAL (e.g. Triangle or SAW from a DSG) and another 5V pp signal into CARRIER.
...

the module is designed to work with 0-5V / 5V pp levels going in (i.e. standard Serge signal levels) - thanks to the input attenuators any “hotter” signal levels should be no problem, however, for calibration it is recommended to use a 5V signal and have th attenuators opened all the way.
I don't understand why R*S chose to do this; 'standard' Euro levels - for audio, at least, are 10Vpp, i.e. the -5V to +5V swings you can see on the red channel of your scope shot (set to 2V divisions). :sadbanana:

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gummyboy
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Post by gummyboy » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:12 pm

Navs wrote: What are the levels of your signals?
It's -5 - +5V so I reduced some levels using the attenuator on the module.
Navs wrote: I don't understand why R*S chose to do this
me neither.....
Navs wrote: i.e. the -5V to +5V swings you can see on the red channel of your scope shot (set to 2V divisions). :sadbanana:
so the red swings between -5 to +5

My new adjustment tool is supposed to be arriving today. Will try again!!!!

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gummyboy
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Post by gummyboy » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:30 am

Wow!!!!! I think I got it, didn't I? Do I need more calibration?

AM looks a bit strange...It's because the carrier is +/- swinging???

First 2 is RM
Second 2 is AM

And I did some attenuation on "CARRIER" input.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

abdul6
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Post by abdul6 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:19 am

For me youre calibration is fine
but still your signal wave is strange, how looks your signal wave
alone (without Ring) ? if it is like this, fine !
Because Ring is not supposed to modify the harmonic content of the signal right ?
the effect comes from the signal/carrier combination
I don't no if I am clear ...
SIAMOISES, my project for double-necked guitar-bass, interfaced with a modular synth is now available here :
http://store.fragmentfactory.com/produc ... nt-factory

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Navs
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Post by Navs » Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:14 pm

That looks much better, gummyboy :tu:

I would still have another read of the manual and maybe try to attenuate the signals before they enter the R*S. The calibration method is to have the attenuators fully open, if I remember. Also, apparently there is some additional waveshaping on the inputs - at a quick guess as I don't have this module, is it some diode shaping/rounding? - anyway, this will affect what you see and hear.

abdul6, yes, RM does affect the harmonic content. But I think what you mean is that, at the frequency of the modulator, the carrier shouldn't be so modulated/distorted. Is that right? If so, gummyboy, can you should us both signals directly in the scope, i.e. not from the RM?

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Post by abdul6 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:17 pm

Navs, yes it is what I meant
for example, with mine, if I use two “clean“ sines
I see (even with my rudimentary slow Max/msp scope~)
the clean (not waveshaped/distorded) sine-signal shaped by the sine-carrier
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http://store.fragmentfactory.com/produc ... nt-factory

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Post by gummyboy » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:46 pm

Navs wrote:I would still have another read of the manual and maybe try to attenuate the signals before they enter the R*S.
Do you mean both "SIGNAL" and "CARRIER" to 5V pp? like swing between -2.5V and 2.5V or 0V and 5V?
Navs wrote:at the frequency of the modulator, the carrier shouldn't be so modulated/distorted. Is that right?
Mine(red graph) doesn't look distorted....
Navs wrote: If so, gummyboy, can you should us both signals directly in the scope, i.e. not from the RM?
Both signals are pure sine wave though. However, I will post the pic of scope later today


According to Max(cycling 74) tutorial, it says "Amplitude modulation (AM) involves changing the amplitude of a carrier signal using the output of another modulator signal." Should "CARRIER" be marked as "MODULATOR"?

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gummyboy
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Post by gummyboy » Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:28 am

Here is the pic with all 3 waves. It's the same as previous pics. It looks harmonically distorted because of refreshing rate and resolution of Data.

Blue one on the top is "SIGNAL" before into Ring. It's sine wave from STO.
Red one is "CARRIER" from Double Helix sine before into Ring.
Green one is Ring out.

AM looks about the same. Knobs on the Ring is about the same as previous pic. Every knob is all the way up except "CARRIER" at about 1 o'clock.

I really want to but complete module and compare each other....:bang: :bang: :bang:

Image

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Post by abdul6 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:11 am

very good gummyboy !
your Ring is ready for a walk in the wild !!
SIAMOISES, my project for double-necked guitar-bass, interfaced with a modular synth is now available here :
http://store.fragmentfactory.com/produc ... nt-factory

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Navs
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Post by Navs » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:32 am

Looks good to me too now :goo:

With RM it doesn't really matter in the same way as with AM (i.e. a VCA) - the inputs are often just referred to as X and Y. Does the R*S manual refer to the 'CV' input as carrier? If so, then yes, I would find that confusing. From FM, I am used to 'carrier' and 'modulator' to describe the two signals.

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Post by tbecker » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:23 pm

Navs wrote:Looks good to me too now :goo:

With RM it doesn't really matter in the same way as with AM (i.e. a VCA) - the inputs are often just referred to as X and Y. Does the R*S manual refer to the 'CV' input as carrier? If so, then yes, I would find that confusing. From FM, I am used to 'carrier' and 'modulator' to describe the two signals.
Yes, with this module you have CV mode control on the main signal input that will be modified, the modulating signal is called carrier which is not very helpful. It is this carrier that will AM or RM the signal input. In RM mode and with the carrier less than full (full waveshapes the modulator signal on this one past 3 oclock) you get proper RM with an EV and osc giving the regular VCA effect. But mode can just become null and then give you the full signal back. It is really fun in use and encourages exploration of the second modulating signal and then slower modulations into mode.

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Navs
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Post by Navs » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:47 am

Reminds me of the G2 Level Modulator:

Image

I guess the RM/AM control is just an offset, right?

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Post by tbecker » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:00 pm

Navs wrote:Reminds me of the G2 Level Modulator:

Image

I guess the RM/AM control is just an offset, right?
Yes, into this circuit it is an offset into an additional vca for modulating the mode. I forgot this was on the g2! Those nord folks borrowed hard from the furthest places making such a great intrument and then closed shop forever to sell pianos! So sad... Makes me glad to spend my money on random source kits and serge and not companies that abandon great instruments. On the ring you have cv on this though and not in the g2 module which takes several more modules to get or maybe that depth gives the same result? Sold mine a while back, can anyone confirm you get fully dry signal with depth to 0 and then AM on 63 which is nord for half and then RM at 127 with e ofset at 0?

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Post by TreB » Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:03 pm

Tempted to buy the ring ..’

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Post by TreB » Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:05 pm

stickmann wrote:It is a solid module. Nothing too flashy but it pairs well with the Wave Multipliers module from R*S. I think R*S has a clip with the RM vs VCM which I think it great. It provides saturation for the signal and carrier inputs past 12 o'clock. Modulation is being used on the CV mode in those demos which I think is the most interesting part of the module. It can be used as a VCA if necessary with your signal in, nothing connected to carrier, and an inverted envelope into CV mode.
Nice

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Post by adaris » Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:30 am

Does anyone know what the current consumption of this module is? Also, are the two outputs identical?

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Post by synonymist » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:06 pm

adaris wrote:Does anyone know what the current consumption of this module is? Also, are the two outputs identical?
Hello. If anyone knows, then it's because they measured it themselves. This module's current consumption seems to be a closely guarded secret that R*S does not disclose. :|

This from the calibration section of the RING build document:

"using either output - they are identical"

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Post by adaris » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:17 pm

Thanks, hopefully someone will crack the secret at some point. I did send an email to R*S, I'll post if I get an answer.

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Post by adaris » Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:52 am

Ok, I got a response from Ralf regarding the current consumption:

"it’s quite low, about 15mA max on each rail IIRC"

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Post by synonymist » Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:15 am

adaris wrote:Ok, I got a response from Ralf regarding the current consumption:

"it’s quite low, about 15mA max on each rail IIRC"
Excellent! And I see that he added that info to the RING description on ModularGrid (so we won't get the "Achtung!" warning there anymore). Thank you. :tu:

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Re:

Post by windchill » Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:37 pm

Calibrating the Serge Ring is a bit tedious, and I'm not going to get those 2 hours back, but in case anyone else is about to undertake it here's a few tips.

Although it quickly becomes obvious what the three trimmers do it's hard to get results which exactly match the graphs in the document. Part of the problem is not knowing the tolerances; not knowing when you're close enough to not need to go round again for another half hour of faffing about. Waveforms and their symmetry will also vary depending on what VCOs you're using, which will affect what you see on the scope.

Make sure the VCO signals you're using are 5V PP - that's 2.5v either side of zero for audio. Attenuate if necessary before the Ring.

Don't do what I did and assume you can do the calibration with the scope only. You need to listen as well.
What finally got me there was listening carefully for the disappearance of the input signal as the mode moves from nothing, through AM, to Ring Mod.

I also used Navs' suggestion and, after getting close on the scope, adjusted the trimmers a little until the signal input was nulled out when nothing was plugged in to the carrier input. By combining the listening and the scope I ended up with a pretty good result.

It sounds gorgeous.
Navs wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:04 am
I don't know the specifics of this module, but you should be able to calibrate a RM for nulling by ear.

It's a balancing act as you're trying to ensure that with only one audio input you hear as little of that signal on the output (and then the other input). But if you take your time, it is possible.

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