ACL Sinfonion

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Audiodaan
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Re: ACL Sinfonion

Post by Audiodaan » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:53 am

I have both Vector and Sinfonion and i think it's a match made in heaven. I don't use any of the Vector's quantisation features, and I don't use its chord mode either. All of that is handled by Sinfonion.

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mdoudoroff
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Re: ACL Sinfonion

Post by mdoudoroff » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:33 am

Well, I’m very disappointed in y’all’s replies, because now I’m probably going to have to go find me a Vector. :omg:

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Re: ACL Sinfonion

Post by second_breakfast » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:28 am

mdoudoroff wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:32 pm
Anyone using Five12 Vector with the Sinfonion downstream? In my head, it’s not a great match since the Vector already has a lot of ideas about pitch, but I am curious.
I sold my Vector after getting my Sinfonion. Felt like they were fighting for dominance. A lot of redundant power.

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Re: ACL Sinfonion

Post by Clumsy » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:32 am

mdoudoroff wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:33 am
Well, I’m very disappointed in y’all’s replies, because now I’m probably going to have to go find me a Vector. :omg:
Ok well thanks you guys...I've just ordered one myself. One (little) part of me thinks it's overkill, since all of the chord and quantising functions are redundant because of the Sinfonion, but it's such a gorgeous looking module, and it beats my current sequencer by being able to to do tied notes and notes of different gate lengths. A downside is that only has outputs for two analog channels, but I should be able to use it to drive my Yarns as well.

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Re: ACL Sinfonion

Post by Thorsten » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:03 pm

I still wonder which trigger/sequencer I pair with my Sinfonion.
Currently my number one is the Metron (WMD) as I also need a drum sequencer
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mdoudoroff
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Re: ACL Sinfonion

Post by mdoudoroff » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:07 pm

Metron is pretty neat, but one thing to keep in mind is that—because the tracks cannot be on different clock divisions—it can require some extra thought if you want to use Metron for both percussion sequencing and overall track control jobs. I’m wrestling a little with this.

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Re: ACL Sinfonion

Post by second_breakfast » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:03 pm

Thorsten wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:03 pm
I still wonder which trigger/sequencer I pair with my Sinfonion.
Currently my number one is the Metron (WMD) as I also need a drum sequencer
I have a metron, hermod, metropolis, and recently picked up the Vermona melodicer. Haven't racked the melodicer yet since I'm finishing up a song before rearranging my system. For repetitive sequences the metropolis and metron with voltera are great to pair with Sinfonion. I find myself using hermod (with a midi keyboard) the most though. It's just so fast to audition and record sequences with it that I find I can get the melodies/lines I'm after a lot faster than programing with step sequencers.

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Re: ACL Sinfonion

Post by Sinamsis » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:57 pm

mdoudoroff wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:07 pm
Metron is pretty neat, but one thing to keep in mind is that—because the tracks cannot be on different clock divisions—it can require some extra thought if you want to use Metron for both percussion sequencing and overall track control jobs. I’m wrestling a little with this.
Metron and Vector are very powerful together. I still manage to fit sinfonion in there. The approach to chords is much nicer and really you could use a single track from vector to sequence the base note and voicing of a chord very easily. Or you could use another modulation source separately, which makes it stand out from vectors approach to sequencing chords. The one benefit of Vector chord sequencing vs sinfonion is that vector outputs MIDI data as well.

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Re: ACL Sinfonion

Post by Thorsten » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:02 pm

Thank you for the responses so far
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Re: ACL Sinfonion

Post by neumedi » Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:43 pm

Anyone pair the Mimetic Digitalis with Sinfonion? I haven't had my hands on a MD, but seems like it would be a fun match.
Latest track - 3 module challenge - Pam's quantizer, envelopes, and gates feeding both Rings and Mimeophon


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MikeLeeBirds
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Re: ACL Sinfonion

Post by MikeLeeBirds » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:12 am

This might be the perfect companion to use Sinfonion with Midi gear.
I‘m thinking mainly of using a hardware polysynth for chords.
You‘ll need two if you want to translate all of Sinfonion‘s channels to Midi, I think.

https://www.befaco.org/cv_thing/
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Re: ACL Sinfonion

Post by MikeLeeBirds » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:13 am

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MikeLeeBirds
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Re: ACL Sinfonion

Post by MikeLeeBirds » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:17 am

Audiodaan wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:53 am
I have both Vector and Sinfonion and i think it's a match made in heaven. I don't use any of the Vector's quantisation features, and I don't use its chord mode either. All of that is handled by Sinfonion.
Same here. They pair wonderfully!

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mkasthe
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Re: ACL Sinfonion

Post by mkasthe » Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:18 pm

neumedi wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:43 pm
Anyone pair the Mimetic Digitalis with Sinfonion? I haven't had my hands on a MD, but seems like it would be a fun match.
I do and it's a lot of fun! The MD is definitely an inspiration generator paired with the Sinfonion as it quickly allows you to bang out a random melody and to fiddle with it, without having to be laser-accurate in how you program the notes since the Sinfonion helps with that.

The main issue I see is that if you want to program more than 1 sequence on the MD (for example have a melody on channel 1 and bass line on channel 2) you need to spend some time thinking about how the steps play out / programming them since they all move at the same time. Also it could help to pair the MD with a gate sequencer to decouple the notes and trigger sequences, but need to pay attention that the envelope is contained within a step or you end up playing multiple notes. One way to solve this is with a S+H model in series to one of the sequences that is triggered together with the envelope and "freezes" the note coming out of the Sinfonion.
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mkasthe
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Re: ACL Sinfonion

Post by mkasthe » Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:21 pm

MikeLeeBirds wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:12 am
This might be the perfect companion to use Sinfonion with Midi gear.
I‘m thinking mainly of using a hardware polysynth for chords.
You‘ll need two if you want to translate all of Sinfonion‘s channels to Midi, I think.

https://www.befaco.org/cv_thing/
YASSSS!!
I was eyeing the VCMC to move chords via midi to either hardware polysynth or to a 1010 Bitbox, but was not a fan of the size and didn't need faders and gates. This hopefully will do the trick :)
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Re: ACL Sinfonion

Post by mrerdat » Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:56 pm

MikeLeeBirds wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:12 am
This might be the perfect companion to use Sinfonion with Midi gear.
I‘m thinking mainly of using a hardware polysynth for chords.
You‘ll need two if you want to translate all of Sinfonion‘s channels to Midi, I think.

https://www.befaco.org/cv_thing/
Thanks for this. Similar to the poster above I was looking for a something to convert cv to MIDI for interfacing Sinfonion with a 1010music Bitbox and this fits the bill without taking up too much hp.

Think I might do something like Keystep Pro -> Expert Sleepers FH-2 -> Sinfonion -> CV Thing -> 1010music Bitbox

for this setup to quantize an external keyboard with Sinfonion and repack the quantized MIDI to feed the Bitbox sampler module that has MIDI in.

Mr.Username
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Re: ACL Sinfonion

Post by Mr.Username » Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:28 am

Hey team,
Just a question here: how would one get midi out from this?
Would we use a CV->MIDI module? or could we do it within the Sinfonion?
Thanks for the help with this!
Dan

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Catchthehare
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Re: ACL Sinfonion

Post by Catchthehare » Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:10 am

Mr.Username wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:28 am
Hey team,
Just a question here: how would one get midi out from this?
Would we use a CV->MIDI module? or could we do it within the Sinfonion?
Thanks for the help with this!
Dan
CV->MIDI module is the only way at the moment. There were ideas of a Midi expander for Sinfonion, but nothing has been confirmed.

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StateAzure
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Re: ACL Sinfonion

Post by StateAzure » Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:20 am

Vector works really well for feeding the Sinfonion! I'm looking forward to trying the Keystep Pro through it soon.
With it's built in v/oct range limits, I wonder if Voltage Block may work quite well with it too.

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Re: ACL Sinfonion

Post by XiXora » Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:36 am

That's one way to make me look like I can actually play piano ;)

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VZvision
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Re: ACL Sinfonion

Post by VZvision » Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:55 pm

So this thing feels like I’m cheating :hihi: Its pretty astounding to be honest.

I mean there are multiple things are made a piece of cake with this. One of the most pivotal things for me was tuning! I used to plan out stuff at the tuning stage if I wanted oscillators playing complimentary keys. That choice at the planning stage was pretty set too since going back and tuning an oscillator that was set to do say a compliment part in a minor key and mode where everything else was played in major was a serious pain in the ass.

Now that whole paradigm of a planning stage is gone! I just tune everything to the lowest C it will play and key and mode emphasis is taken care of by panel choice on the Sinfonion channels. It is sooo JAMMABLE!

One observation for sequencer users out there and one question for everyone:

Observation:
Have had some awesome results with ER-102’s parts and the Sinfonion’s chord sequencer with the two playing off each other and exchanging control of advancing the chord progressions. A playable switch between the ER-102 parts control, a sequencer track, and the Sinfonion CV for sequence song/part selection makes the exchanging even more playable. Concept is perfectly extendable to any sort of macro sequence controller in conjunction with a switch as well.

Question:
As root and degree are sequenced, the base tone that all oscillators are tuned to is a bit of a movingly target on the quantizer display yet the CV source used is still treating the base tone as 0V. For example, if you sequence CMaj to FMin and everything is tuned to C, then 0V shows up as “Root” on each channel @ CMaj and as “5th” @ FMin. Anyone come up with some workflows while jamming to keep track of this? It’s exactly what should happen, but i find when I’m jamming with the scale masks and a sequence sketch, I’m often losing track of where the voltage should be to hit a certain note as the chord sequencer is moving the root and degree.

Lastly, many many thanks Mathias for such a paradigm-shifting product. Euro quantizing has just gone super-sonic. :tu:

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Re: ACL Sinfonion

Post by jwise » Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:41 am

VZvision wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:55 pm
Have had some awesome results with ER-102’s parts and the Sinfonion’s chord sequencer with the two playing off each other and exchanging control of advancing the chord progressions.
After a long wait for the German to America postal service to deliver my Sinfonion, it has arrived an hour ago! I just mounted it up and before heading to Matthias's videos and the user manual I was getting caught up here when I read about your Sinfonion and ER-102. My Sinfonion is sitting right next to my ER-101/102 and I was wondering if you have a YouTube channel?

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mvdirty
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Re: ACL Sinfonion

Post by mvdirty » Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:03 pm

VZvision wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:55 pm
So this thing feels like I’m cheating :hihi: Its pretty astounding to be honest.
I completely understand the cheating feeling. :)
VZvision wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:55 pm
Now that whole paradigm of a planning stage is gone! I just tune everything to the lowest C it will play and key and mode emphasis is taken care of by panel choice on the Sinfonion channels. It is sooo JAMMABLE!
Consider tuning each oscillator to the C of the approximate middle of the range in which you tend to use it, rather than the lowest C. This will let you get the most out of the Sinfonion’s octave controls.

If you need or want even more control, consider placing a module like the Klavis CalTrans between the Sinfonion and your oscillators. It has great calibration features but even just using its semitone and octave shifting can be really helpful. (I actually use it in a mix of ways: on the input side for transposition of ill-behaved or otherwise-limited pattern generators and sequencers, and on the output side for VCO calibration.)
VZvision wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:55 pm
Question:
As root and degree are sequenced, the base tone that all oscillators are tuned to is a bit of a movingly target on the quantizer display yet the CV source used is still treating the base tone as 0V. For example, if you sequence CMaj to FMin and everything is tuned to C, then 0V shows up as “Root” on each channel @ CMaj and as “5th” @ FMin. Anyone come up with some workflows while jamming to keep track of this? It’s exactly what should happen, but i find when I’m jamming with the scale masks and a sequence sketch, I’m often losing track of where the voltage should be to hit a certain note as the chord sequencer is moving the root and degree.
I’m not yet an expert in these things but would really like to help you figure this out.

I have a Sinfonion, but not an ER-101/102, and am particularly interested because I think that the ER-101/102 is in a (unique, IIRC) position to help people with the aspect I feel is the key to using the Sinfonion to best effect: breaking away from thinking in notes/pitches and starting thinking in intervals. More on that later.

(I have to make one notable assumption which might not hold: All of your V/Oct destinations are downstream of the Sinfonion. I’ll try to only touch on a few things in this reply until we can confirm that.)

Upstream of the Sinfonion, consider sequencing everything using a key rooted on C. Not because you’ll never move from C, but rather because you can use C to keep intervals (and voltages) relatively simple to deal with, and do everything else with selection of Sinfonion roots, degrees, and intervals.

Assuming C major, C is 1. D is 2. E is 3. F is 4. and so forth. Selecting other roots to sequence in can work, but can interact a little oddly with how the Sinfonion transposes things during chord sequencing, so C presents the least confusion and headaches. Within C, C major is an obvious enough choice. If you tend to work in minor keys you could work in C minor to support your note entry muscle memory. (Note that transposition modules like CalTrans can help here too, if you want to base your sequencing on some other key in which you have the most muscle memory.)

Unless I’ve misunderstood what I’ve read to date about the ER-101/102, it can shine here because, with the Sinfonion, the 101/102s most obvious “downside” of selecting pitches by indexing into voltage tables becomes its greatest upside: Index 1, 3, and 4 on the screen can quite directly represent the intervals, depending on how you set up the voltage tables.

Are you sequencing all pitch CV with the ER-101/102? Or do you have other non-ER-101/102 pitch CV sequencers involved?

Getting back to “...if you sequence CMaj to FMin...”, I could suggest a few things here but to start with one of the things that helped the Sinfonion click with me, phrased as a question back to you: Do you mean to modulate to F minor (and presumably play a I chord?) Or do you mean to play a IV chord in C major? I ask because, with the Sinfonion, these two are distinct concepts with implications on and interactions with a number of other Sinfonion features. (We can touch on those as we go.)

And regarding “...where the voltage should be to hit a certain note...”, you’re probably already seeing where I’m going with much of the above, but to put it somewhat cheekily: I know what intervals are, but what is a ”note”? ;)

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VZvision
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Re: ACL Sinfonion

Post by VZvision » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:31 pm

jwise wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:41 am
I was wondering if you have a YouTube channel?
I don't but I can try to unpack the patch concept a bit more from my notes. For switching I used a WMD SSM. The inputs were:

1. ER-101 Track 4 Gate out
2. ER-101 Track 4 CV-A
3. ER-101 Track 4 CV-B
4. Sinfonion Out 1 set to trigger after a song step changes

The outputs of SSM went to:

1. ER-102 Parts Activate
2. ER-102 Parts Select
3. Sinfonion CV-1 Song part 1V/part
4. Sinfonion Sequence Clock input

Also, the user transition for parts on my ER-102 is set to track 4 in the config.ini. So whenever track 4 ends, if a new part has been activated, the timing is tied to track 4.

So with the above setup, you can set up different routings where:

1. Track 4 is changing the chords on Sinfonion via the gate clocking the Sinfonion chord progression within a part.
2. Track 4's CV-A changing Parts on the Sinfonion so you can change between sets of chord progressions.
3. Track 4 controlling ER-102 parts as well

To get the Sinfonion to have full control over ER-102 parts took one extra step. Specifically, the Sinfonion Out 1 on the SSM mentioned above can be used to "activate" an ER-102 part, but you need a voltage out of the Sinfonion to "select" a part. Or at the very least, a way for the Sinfonion to activate a voltage to change an ER-102 part...I set this up in a kinda round-about way...Specifically, I took one of the dedicated gate outputs of the Sinfonion (which is saved per sequence step) and used this a modulator for an ER-102 group. The group was set to activate/un-mute CV-B on track 4, which could then be used to select a part on the ER-102 :tu:

Once you have it set up, then each part on the ER-102 has its own Track 4 Gate and CV-A settings which can change ER-102 parts or Sinfonion chord progressions. AND each step on the Sinfonion has its own setup for choosing and activating parts on the ER-102 via Out 1 and the gate setting per step indirectly controlling CV-B via a group (CV-B can also be different with each ER-102 part). The switch then decides which of these setups gets routed to change which device's settings.

Was pretty fun :guitar: :drums: :rock:

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VZvision
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Re: ACL Sinfonion

Post by VZvision » Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:48 pm

mvdirty wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:03 pm
Consider tuning each oscillator to the C of the approximate middle of the range in which you tend to use it, rather than the lowest C
Will definitely give this a try :tu:
mvdirty wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:03 pm
Selecting other roots to sequence in can work, but can interact a little oddly with how the Sinfonion transposes things during chord sequencing
Hmm...not sure I understand this. I haven't really used the transposition too much yet, but its my understanding that the chord sequencing via Root and Degree moves the Chord CV outputs en-masse. With the other outputs, they only change the scale mask of the quantizer channels so they fit within the chosen scale without transposing the outputs en masse up or down to the chosen root. So if you're in CMaj and you move to a root and degree setting where the scale doesn't have a C but a C# it will move that half-step to make sure its still in scale, but the settings won't completely transpose the output.
mvdirty wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:03 pm
Unless I’ve misunderstood what I’ve read to date about the ER-101/102, it can shine here because, with the Sinfonion, the 101/102s most obvious “downside” of selecting pitches by indexing into voltage tables becomes its greatest upside: Index 1, 3, and 4 on the screen can quite directly represent the intervals, depending on how you set up the voltage tables.
So far, they've paired pretty awesomely :tu: The Sinfonion definitely relegates the primary use of editable voltage tables to modulation instead of really precise pitch information in the form of scales. So far, I've just used the 12-tone scale table with the Sinfonion so I could ensure the ability to hit every note on the Sinfonion channels. Having said that, I do like quantizing notes to 3rds, 5ths, and octaves on the ER via groups which still works really well with the Sinfonion. No reason you couldn't set up tables for interval-specific work, but I'd do it via loading on the SD card and not on the module itself since that could be a time-sucker :bang:
mvdirty wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:03 pm
Do you mean to modulate to F minor (and presumably play a I chord?) Or do you mean to play a IV chord in C major? I ask because, with the Sinfonion, these two are distinct concepts with implications on and interactions with a number of other Sinfonion features.
Am definitely aware of this, and whether the chords are moving diatonically by scale degrees within a key or whether I'm changing to an entirely different root and mode ("mode" as in musical mode NOT Sinfonion mode), I think the same thing applies to the quantizer channels....the concept of 0V incoming on the channel is interpreted differently by the display depending on the root and degree settings, but will output the same note as long as that note is in the current scale. Its a head-scratcher to be sure :hmm:
mvdirty wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:03 pm
but to put it somewhat cheekily: I know what intervals are, but what is a ”note”?
Cheeky indeed :hihi: I guess yeah you could set up tables that addressed intervals between notes rather than notes themselves if that's what you're pointing to, but not sure I'd be able to keep track of that either!!! When I want a minor 3rd or diminished 5th, but the minor 3rd is displayed as 7th since the current chord is in the key of F not C....so far what I've been trying to do is spend more time with the display set to Scale Tones or Scale Structure so I can see where each interval moves to when the chords change. The drawback is I can't see the chord structure at a glance.

Many thanks for the help thus far though. Has given me a few ideas and gotten my brain moving in some different directions!

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