Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Cwejman, Livewire, TipTop Audio, Doepfer etc... Get your euro on!

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suthnear
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Post by suthnear » Sat May 11, 2019 1:30 pm

This is seriously next level:

[video][/video]

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Utopian
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Post by Utopian » Sat May 11, 2019 1:35 pm

suthnear wrote:This is seriously next level
Yes! I am even more excited after seeing the video :yay:

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cackland
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Post by cackland » Sat May 11, 2019 2:19 pm

Very nice.

As Joran mentioned in the video, this was recently put together for Superbooth. I'm curious to find out, what changes (if any) might be coming before release in Q3?

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Post by itsmeaflo » Sat May 11, 2019 3:44 pm

This looks amazing!

Is there a way to use external CV to adjust the FM modulation index? I know we can do so by attenuverting the signal itself but was wondering if possible within the module.

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Post by Bishop Dust » Sat May 11, 2019 9:06 pm

Tried it at SB19 - killer module for sure !

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synonymist
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Post by synonymist » Sat May 11, 2019 10:15 pm

suthnear wrote:This is seriously next level:
Awesome. Thank you for posting.

I will be buying one. Then woe be unto some poor 12 hp module in my cases that can't pull as much weight as Generate 3!

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MARK27
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Post by MARK27 » Sat May 11, 2019 10:51 pm

starthief wrote:
MARK27 wrote:I actually can't think of a single thru-zero fm-able VCO with a black panel option.
E352
E370
Omega-Phi
Furthrrrr Generator Black Edition with Strong Zero core installed
Mindphaser
Bateleur mk2
DIY Warps (okay, technically TZPM)
ER-301 with a third-party black panel

Why Doepfer's TZFM VCO SE comes in blue instead of black, I'll never know.

(I'm still extremely interested in Generate 3, though. :mrgreen:)
Ah, my bad.

I should have said I don't know of any analog thru-zero VCOs with black panels. Digital interests me less for this kind of stuff.

I guess the Furthrrr Generator might be analog (is it?). I forgot about them. Good eye on that one. It is still pretty new.

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maltemark
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Post by maltemark » Sat May 11, 2019 11:14 pm

The schippmann is indeed very analog

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Post by Nagasaki45 » Sun May 12, 2019 3:55 am

suthnear wrote:This is seriously next level:

[video][/video]
This is absolutely amazing!

Can anyone (/Joran) explain why the TZFM knob affects the output, or at least the core output (~59s in the video), when nothing is connected to the TZFM input? I was expecting it to be an attenuator for the incoming signal.

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Post by joranalogue » Sun May 12, 2019 4:00 am

cackland wrote:Very nice.

As Joran mentioned in the video, this was recently put together for Superbooth. I'm curious to find out, what changes (if any) might be coming before release in Q3?
The design is quite close to being production ready, the release timing is mostly a result of the manufacturing schedule with Contour 1 currently about to enter production first + new batches of almost the entire rest of the series.

Of course there will be some small improvements, mostly in the phase modulator which in these prototypes still has some audible glitches/'clicks' in certain settings.

itsmeaflo wrote:This looks amazing!

Is there a way to use external CV to adjust the FM modulation index? I know we can do so by attenuverting the signal itself but was wondering if possible within the module.
There's no FM index VCA, mostly to keep the module in the same size and price range as Filter 8. You'd want to have VCAs for the phase and amplitude modulations as well, so the module would become bigger, more complex, more expensive etc, which I really wanted to avoid.
Nagasaki45 wrote:This is absolutely amazing!

Can anyone (/Joran) explain why the TZFM knob affects the output, or at least the core output (~59s in the video), when nothing is connected to the TZFM input? I was expecting it to be an attenuator for the incoming signal.
There's a +5 V normal on the TZFM socket, meaning you can use the polariser knob as a manual symmetry/linear detune if nothing is plugged in. And since the bias adds +5 V on top of this, it can be used as an octave switch in this case.
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Post by ugokcen » Sun May 12, 2019 7:48 am

Lots of creative potential here. I was casually browsing through the sonicstate videos and I initially thought “not another analog oscillator”, but I was genuinely surprised by what I heard. Can’t wait for the Divkid demo!

Quick question: Is there anything more going with the fundamental, even, and odd levels than mixing a sine, saw, and a square?

I mean, the harmonic series is infinite so referring to their amplitude in a single control is a bit confusing. A square wave represents a specific relation between the amplitudes of odd harmonics, there can be many other waveforms built up from just odd harmonics. Maybe that odd level knob is changing the scaling of the relative amplitude of these harmonics?

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Post by moogah » Sun May 12, 2019 3:15 pm

ugokcen wrote:
Quick question: Is there anything more going with the fundamental, even, and odd levels than mixing a sine, saw, and a square?
Check the video again, the odd and even outputs aren't just saw and square waves and the level control for each is a through zero vca (ring mod)

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Post by joranalogue » Sun May 12, 2019 5:29 pm

ugokcen wrote:Lots of creative potential here. I was casually browsing through the sonicstate videos and I initially thought “not another analog oscillator”, but I was genuinely surprised by what I heard. Can’t wait for the Divkid demo!

Quick question: Is there anything more going with the fundamental, even, and odd levels than mixing a sine, saw, and a square?

I mean, the harmonic series is infinite so referring to their amplitude in a single control is a bit confusing. A square wave represents a specific relation between the amplitudes of odd harmonics, there can be many other waveforms built up from just odd harmonics. Maybe that odd level knob is changing the scaling of the relative amplitude of these harmonics?
Fair points; ultimately it is indeed a simple mix of the three waveforms. The even is a double frequency saw though, and the odd isn't just a square wave since the fundamental is excluded. There's also some specific phase relationships between them, simply so you can create the classic saw and square waves on the full output at the fundamental frequency.

This gives you a relatively simple yet powerful way to create many different timbres, especially when you consider the modulation options. Being able to 'shape' the harmonic structures would add even more options, but of course greatly increase complexity etc. There's nothing stopping you from processing and mixing the timbral channels externally though!
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Post by oldenjon » Sun May 12, 2019 6:44 pm

joranalogue wrote: Fair points; ultimately it is indeed a simple mix of the three waveforms. The even is a double frequency saw though, and the odd isn't just a square wave since the fundamental is excluded. There's also some specific phase relationships between them, simply so you can create the classic saw and square waves on the full output at the fundamental frequency.
Why a double frequency sawtooth and not the same frequency as the odd and fundamental outputs?
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Post by starthief » Sun May 12, 2019 9:37 pm

A bit more demo here.

[video][/video]

The double frequency thing makes sense to me -- you want it not to overlap with the fundamental sine.
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Post by ugokcen » Mon May 13, 2019 3:03 am

Even and odd outputs remove the fundamental harmonic from the series and it’s just the nature of saw waves that you end up with another saw wave with double the frequency.

It’s a neat idea, basically this feature saves you 3 VCAs and a mixer. I also like the fact that you get on board attenuators for all the FM stuff. I think it would be the perfect half for a complex oscillator if you like rolling your own.

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Post by joranalogue » Mon May 13, 2019 3:18 am

Thanks for posting the lecture, starthief!
ugokcen wrote:Even and odd outputs remove the fundamental harmonic from the series and it’s just the nature of saw waves that you end up with another saw wave with double the frequency.

It’s a neat idea, basically this feature saves you 3 VCAs and a mixer. I also like the fact that you get on board attenuators for all the FM stuff. I think it would be the perfect half for a complex oscillator if you like rolling your own.
Almost correct. :)
If you take a saw wave and subtract the fundamental harmonic, you still have both odd and even harmonics and a very different looking waveform. Doubling the frequency removes all odd harmonics, including the fundamental.
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Post by joranalogue » Wed May 15, 2019 2:28 am

Here's some more Generate 3 sounds from the Superbooth showfloor!

[video][/video]
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Post by joranalogue » Thu May 16, 2019 3:24 pm

Always a pleasure to meet up with DivKid and talk Eurorack. Here's his Superbooth video on Generate 3!

[video][/video]
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Post by cackland » Thu May 16, 2019 4:03 pm

Love the breakdown in these videos. Nice work guys.

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Post by joranalogue » Sun May 19, 2019 4:52 pm

If you're interested in a more in-depth description of how Generate 3 does what it does, take a look at Chris Meyer's excellent write-up here: https://www.patreon.com/posts/sb19-joranalogue-26940077 :tu:
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Post by cackland » Sun May 19, 2019 5:24 pm

Thanks. I got a pretty good understanding through the various videos etc, but I'll give that a read as well :)

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Post by autopoiesis » Sun May 19, 2019 5:58 pm

looks *really* great ! very forward thinking designs here. a few questions/suggestions:

- do I understand correctly that if you have a modulator patched into the ØFM jack, the ØFM pot no longer acts as a "symmetry" offset (as on, say, the Rubicon) but rather as an attenuator (or attenuverter? see next question)? and in this scenario (something being patched into ØFM) the bias switch just alternates between traditional linear FM and TZFM?

- which knobs are bipolar (e.g., does the odd level knob invert the level of the odd harmonics when turned fully counterclockwise?), and which act as attenuverters when their corresponding jacks are patched in (e.g., does the ØFM knob attenuvert the TZFM modulator that one might patch in)? do the pots have center detents? center detents would be very helpful for any of the pots that have bipolar/attenuverting behavior, so we can quickly dial patched-in modulations down to zero. otherwise I could see this being quite delicate to tweak.

- is there any normalization of inputs across jacks? I think it would be nice if the ØFM input were normalled to exponential FM, since the exp. FM knob is just an attenuator (as far as I can tell). I would have also liked to see some kind of a "'full' level" jack on here whose signal is normalled across the fundamental, odd, and even inputs, so we could amplitude modulate the entire spectrum without involving two stackcables or a 1:3 mult. it's a genius module but the patch cable spaghetti risk potential seems a bit high

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Post by joranalogue » Mon May 20, 2019 3:20 am

autopoiesis wrote:looks *really* great ! very forward thinking designs here. a few questions/suggestions:

- do I understand correctly that if you have a modulator patched into the ØFM jack, the ØFM pot no longer acts as a "symmetry" offset (as on, say, the Rubicon) but rather as an attenuator (or attenuverter? see next question)? and in this scenario (something being patched into ØFM) the bias switch just alternates between traditional linear FM and TZFM?

- which knobs are bipolar (e.g., does the odd level knob invert the level of the odd harmonics when turned fully counterclockwise?), and which act as attenuverters when their corresponding jacks are patched in (e.g., does the ØFM knob attenuvert the TZFM modulator that one might patch in)? do the pots have center detents? center detents would be very helpful for any of the pots that have bipolar/attenuverting behavior, so we can quickly dial patched-in modulations down to zero. otherwise I could see this being quite delicate to tweak.

- is there any normalization of inputs across jacks? I think it would be nice if the ØFM input were normalled to exponential FM, since the exp. FM knob is just an attenuator (as far as I can tell). I would have also liked to see some kind of a "'full' level" jack on here whose signal is normalled across the fundamental, odd, and even inputs, so we could amplitude modulate the entire spectrum without involving two stackcables or a 1:3 mult. it's a genius module but the patch cable spaghetti risk potential seems a bit high
- Yes.
- All attenuators are in fact bipolar/polarisers/attenuverters. There's no centre detents, simply because the detent never exactly aligns with the electrical centre of the potentiometer. For the detent to have any benefit would require an additional calibration trimpot to be added for every single polariser.
- All through-zero inputs already have a +5 V normal, allowing the parameters to be manually adjusted if nothing is plugged in.
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peripatitis

Post by peripatitis » Mon May 20, 2019 7:01 am

I'd be curious to see whether by modulating at slower rates the three "stems" you get an evolving sound or 3 different sounds.

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