Instruo arbhar granular processor

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drxcm
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Re: Instruo arbhar granular processor

Post by drxcm » Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:16 pm

Dob wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:58 am
anton414 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:47 am
Btw does anyone know if it's possible to clock the intensity parameter?
You can turn intensity down and clock the "strike" (is it called that?) input. Next to "capture".
From the top of my head, your can trigger 20 extra grains like that, next to the grains that stem from intensity.
Also, you can mix these.
I use this a lot, to have grains play in sync with the rest.
Are you getting latency on yours when striking the grains?
I've got enough to make it pretty unusable for percussive stuff, or even melodies- there is quite a noticeable short delay between the trigger and the audio output

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Re: Instruo arbhar granular processor

Post by Bartelby » Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:01 am

drxcm wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:16 pm


Are you getting latency on yours when striking the grains?
I've got enough to make it pretty unusable for percussive stuff, or even melodies- there is quite a noticeable short delay between the trigger and the audio output
Using a drum output from my BeatStep Pro there's no noticeable delay...

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Re: Instruo arbhar granular processor

Post by corbetta » Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:05 am

Could the “delay” be a product of the content of your audio buffer? Like if you are triggering a quiet backwards grain you won’t get a clear transient until “after” a few ms. ; or if the read head position starts in a silent portion of the buffer. does it still sound “delayed” if you trigger grains from a noisy buffer with no smooth windowing at all?

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Re: Instruo arbhar granular processor

Post by autopoiesis » Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:55 am

Just out of curiosity, what's the depth (millimeters) of the expander?

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Re: Instruo arbhar granular processor

Post by drxcm » Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:20 pm

corbetta wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:05 am
Could the “delay” be a product of the content of your audio buffer? Like if you are triggering a quiet backwards grain you won’t get a clear transient until “after” a few ms. ; or if the read head position starts in a silent portion of the buffer. does it still sound “delayed” if you trigger grains from a noisy buffer with no smooth windowing at all?
I had the same thought but it’s not that. Definitely seeing latency. I’m triggering from Gatestorm which is the master trigger sequencer in my setup.

Interestingly the first time I powered up my Arbhar I couldn’t get any sound out of it at all. I thought it was broken. It wasn’t even passing dry audio.

A single power cycle and it’s now working on every boot. But this latency is a drag. I’ve emailed Instruo and see what they say.

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Re: Instruo arbhar granular processor

Post by buyingitwontmakeucool » Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:33 am

stujay18 wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:31 pm
Any update on availability in the U.S.? Pre-ordered from Detroit Modular quite awhile ago. Thanks!
Anyone hear anything recently about stock? I haven’t heard a peep on my preorder

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Re: Instruo arbhar granular processor

Post by Whatisvalis » Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:17 pm

buyingitwontmakeucool wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:33 am
stujay18 wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:31 pm
Any update on availability in the U.S.? Pre-ordered from Detroit Modular quite awhile ago. Thanks!
Anyone hear anything recently about stock? I haven’t heard a peep on my preorder
Nope, although a few have popped up in stores in the UK, maybe there's a new shipment due stateside soon.

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Re: Instruo arbhar granular processor

Post by corbetta » Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:20 pm

I preorder mine from CV in PDX and apparently they're getting stock tomorrow!

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Re: Instruo arbhar granular processor

Post by corbetta » Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:26 pm

Update: mine shipped from CV today and it looks like they have more in stock (ludabh too!)

https://www.controlvoltage.net/instruo-arbhar.html

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Re: Instruo arbhar granular processor

Post by buyingitwontmakeucool » Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:44 pm

corbetta wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:26 pm
Update: mine shipped from CV today and it looks like they have more in stock (ludabh too!)

https://www.controlvoltage.net/instruo-arbhar.html
Nice!! Enjoy!!

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Re: Instruo arbhar granular processor

Post by drxcm » Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:36 pm

OK so been experimenting a little more with this latency thing.

I've tried trigger outputs from Gatestorm, Maths, Beatstep Pro and Marbles.

Multing the trigger to my Arbhar grain strike input and any other sound source, and looking at the scope, I'm seeing a pretty consistent 50ms latency / delay on the output audio from the Arbhar.

Realising I was in Reverb mode, I changed back to default pan mode - same behaviour. I pulled the SD card and checked I am running the latest firmware.

I've not heard anything back from Instruo yet, but am perplexed that others aren't seeing this and wonder whether I have a faulty unit.

Attached is a photo of my Otool - Red waveform is natural gate audio output, Green waveform is Arbhar audio output, both receiving trigger from Maths
IMG_1639.JPG
This behaviour is making the Arbhar unusable for me for percussion duties or melodic sequences, as I can't get it in sync with everything else. For drones / washes / granular stuff otherwise it is amazing. I'm hoping mine can be fixed or possibly the firmware is at fault.
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Re: Instruo arbhar granular processor

Post by Sync » Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:12 am

corbetta wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:26 pm
Update: mine shipped from CV today and it looks like they have more in stock (ludabh too!)

https://www.controlvoltage.net/instruo-arbhar.html

Both Control Voltage and Control currently show them in stock. Perfect Circuit shows their usual "more coming soon" and Detroit lists it as "pre-order." Hopefully the Perfect Circuit and Detroit shipments are soon to arrive, unless they just got some and were all reserved by previous pre-orders...
--

Sync

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Re: Instruo arbhar granular processor

Post by Dob » Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:14 am

I will try and investigate that latency today. I don't have a scope to back my ears up, but those are picky about timing 8-)

I've done some sequencing yesterday by the way, and it's very tight now. I recorded 2 examples of that
https://photos.app.goo.gl/CgXnVdgWvjm9Rsad6

It might misinterpret a scan position voltage once every minute. But that's, at least to me, part of the game of having digital modules communicate over a analog voltage interface. And, I find that charming as long as its in useable/acceptable bounds.
There will be a/d conversion, 'noise' filtering, interpretation, calculation, and then d/a. (as fast as possible)

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Re: Instruo arbhar granular processor

Post by drxcm » Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:49 am

Great beat chop!

Yup it’s tight internally and when clocking other modules.
But in your video you are just sequencing the Arbhar so the latency won’t be noticeable.

Try the same patch but with your master clock also triggering percussion from another source in your modular. I think you’ll get where I’m coming from that way.

I think I can even ‘see’ the latency in your video between the Rene trig output LED and the Arbhar Grain Strike LED.

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Re: Instruo arbhar granular processor

Post by matheuwatson » Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:17 am

I have an Arbhar for sale btw, just having to down size :(

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Re: Instruo arbhar granular processor

Post by Dob » Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:30 am

Ah yes, I get that latency too. For me it's pretty constant around 40 millis.

I've noticed it immediately by ear, and then figured I could record the trigger left and the audio right, and see the latency in Audacity.
The patch is as follows; Maths generates the trigger in cycle mode with zero rise and some fall (so I only hear the click of the trigger going up) to the Make Noise CV bus, from there directly to left channel and via Arbhar to right channel.
The audio being a solid tone (choir actually) so I cannot be in a off scan position; the whole buffer is continuous audio.
I've got Arbhar in reverb mode.
Schermafbeelding 2020-02-27 om 10.02.16.png
For a moment I thought I had come up with a workaround of sorts; if you set Trigger Out / Onset Analysis setting to Gamma, it would send a trigger out when a grain is fired.
But with this setting, trigger out is only given for the internally triggered grains (turning density up), not the externally triggered ones. Unfortunately, internally triggered grains are not really suitable for master clock, as the density knob is too coarse grained for that (and seems to be hardcoded to a certain tempo on the static left side).
Also, if Instruo would make the Gamma setting fire a trigger at grain/audio start time (so after the latency), that would be a workaround, because you could base your master clock on that. If you'd work with irregular trigger patterns however, that would obviously not be a solid option. Although you could send Arbhar output to a VCA with an irregular triggered envelope.

I personally think a bit of latency is inevitable with a digital module, but it should be as short as possible. Also, I think Arbhar was not directly intended for this kind of use, i.e. 'precise' sequencing and triggering. You can also see in the screenshot that, even when I select an envelope curve with an 'abrupt' start, there's still a tiny ramp up, probably to avoid clicks. (which also doesn't help the perceived timing issue)

It shines more on the granular/smearing/atmospheric/'clouds' side, for which it is ace. I mean, in my 5U setup I also have Clouds, but Clouds doesn't come near.
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Re: Instruo arbhar granular processor

Post by Dob » Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:40 am

drxcm wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:49 am
Great beat chop!
Yup it’s tight internally and when clocking other modules.
Thanks! Just wanted to show something cool, fun and tight, as we're also bashing Arbhar a little.
I want us all to be informed about what it can and cannot do, at what it shines and what could be improved :party:
I still love this peace of gear :love:
And I hope we'll get the trigger out option that will echo the external trigger "post-latency", so I could work my way around the latency when need be.
But as I said before, a little latency will be inevitable. Maybe a super-short-latency mode can be thought of, in which the internal parameters are optimized for this kind of use. I'm well aware that in software development, or engineering in general, every choice is a trade-off. And I think most choices in Arbhar have been trade-offs in favor of making the granular/cloudy side perform brilliantly.

Like, it has a gazillion CV input options, that probably takes some time to scan; they all need to be noise-filtered before the unit can decide whether there is a CV and what to do with it. (opposed to some sample player that just has trigger and pitch CV) If there would be a mode in which only the CV inputs for rhythmic use would be considered, that probably takes away some of the latency.
But then again; Does Instruo want to add the complexity of such a mode to the system? Does that fit their view and design philosophy? Choices!
:zen:
Last edited by Dob on Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Instruo arbhar granular processor

Post by drxcm » Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:49 am

Yup, use it for it's strengths and all, but this much latency I don't think is 'inevitible' just by virtue of being digital.
I'm hopeful it can be improved in firmware updates.
I mean Clouds doesn't have trigger latency like this.

The other thing I'd like to see is a bit more range on the intensity parameter between zero grains being fired at either extreme, and too many being fired as you rotate towards 12 oclock. The 'hard coded tempo' thing is also somewhat dependant on grain length. I assumed grain density would be a bit more jittery / random in terms of timing, but either side of 12 oclock I'm seeing pretty consistent timing. It's more amplitude that gets varied than jitter.

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Re: Instruo arbhar granular processor

Post by Whatisvalis » Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:13 am

Sync wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:12 am
corbetta wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:26 pm
Update: mine shipped from CV today and it looks like they have more in stock (ludabh too!)

https://www.controlvoltage.net/instruo-arbhar.html

Both Control Voltage and Control currently show them in stock. Perfect Circuit shows their usual "more coming soon" and Detroit lists it as "pre-order." Hopefully the Perfect Circuit and Detroit shipments are soon to arrive, unless they just got some and were all reserved by previous pre-orders...
Fingers crossed Detroit Modular can fill their pre orders with this next shipment - not heard anything yet.

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Re: Instruo arbhar granular processor

Post by r05c03 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:28 am

drxcm wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:49 am
Yup, use it for it's strengths and all, but this much latency I don't think is 'inevitible' just by virtue of being digital.
I'm hopeful it can be improved in firmware updates.
I mean Clouds doesn't have trigger latency like this.

The other thing I'd like to see is a bit more range on the intensity parameter between zero grains being fired at either extreme, and too many being fired as you rotate towards 12 oclock. The 'hard coded tempo' thing is also somewhat dependant on grain length. I assumed grain density would be a bit more jittery / random in terms of timing, but either side of 12 oclock I'm seeing pretty consistent timing. It's more amplitude that gets varied than jitter.
The highest audio quality available out of Clouds is far below what the Arbhar does. At its highest audio setting cloud can store what, like 1 second of audio? This matters for latency.
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Re: Instruo arbhar granular processor

Post by drxcm » Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:04 pm

r05c03 wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:28 am
The highest audio quality available out of Clouds is far below what the Arbhar does. At its highest audio setting cloud can store what, like 1 second of audio? This matters for latency.
40-50ms is a lot though. I don’t have any other digital synthesizers, effects processors, modules, or software that has latency this high.

I disagree that if something is digital or runs high quality audio, that it should naturally have audible latency.

And 40-50ms is easily noticed. I’m not nit picking.

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Re: Instruo arbhar granular processor

Post by stujay18 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:50 pm

Whatisvalis wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:13 am
Sync wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:12 am
corbetta wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:26 pm
Update: mine shipped from CV today and it looks like they have more in stock (ludabh too!)

https://www.controlvoltage.net/instruo-arbhar.html

Both Control Voltage and Control currently show them in stock. Perfect Circuit shows their usual "more coming soon" and Detroit lists it as "pre-order." Hopefully the Perfect Circuit and Detroit shipments are soon to arrive, unless they just got some and were all reserved by previous pre-orders...
Fingers crossed Detroit Modular can fill their pre orders with this next shipment - not heard anything yet.
Agreed. I'm waiting for mine from Detroit Modular too.

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Re: Instruo arbhar granular processor

Post by Bartelby » Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:26 am

I stand corrected about the latency.

Top is the Arbhar, bottom is a Pr0k BD. both being triggered via the BeatStep Pro Drum channel.
Screen Shot 2020-02-28 at 10.23.55.png
Fortunately I don't think I'll ever use the Arbhar in this way, but the issue exists.
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Re: Instruo arbhar granular processor

Post by MikeLeeBirds » Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:32 am

I love what Arbhar does.

But I agree that the intensity scaling could be more subtle.

I‘d prefer if it worked like the Density on Clouds where CW will be randomly and CCW steadily triggered grains. That would be of more interest to me than the rather inaudible difference we have now. Or maybe I should listen more carefully to what it does now? 😬😬

Another idea: make intensity and length independent of each other. I‘d love to be able to have only very few, short grains. As I understand it now short grains will be triggered in rather quick succession, even at low intensity settings, while long grains are more slow to emerge, even at higher intensity.
Is that a technical limitation or a choice?

I could, of course, use random triggers from elsewhere in my rack going into the manual trigger input to achieve this. But, y‘know..

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Re: Instruo arbhar granular processor

Post by esmooov » Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:56 pm

Playing around with my arbhar, I noticed that if I boot it with the shift button held down it enters this flashing rainbow mode. Any idea what this mode does?

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