Klavis - CalTrans

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mvdirty
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Re: Klavis - CalTrans

Post by mvdirty » Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:11 am

Dang. Hopefully Zentek will be able to get you sorted out soon. Firmware? Calibrating the calibration module? ;) Hopefully nothing too severe will be needed. It’s a great little module once working, that’s for sure.

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Re: Klavis - CalTrans

Post by skxdlxx » Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:54 am

lturner241 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:51 am
I seem to have a bit of a tuning issue when using CalTrans. The oscillators calibrate fine, including Plaits, but when I play C1 of my keyboard it is playing a -40 cents flattened C# through CalTrans. If I then plug the CV directly into the oscillator it plays a C. With Plaits I can access C0. After calibrating with CalTrans the lowest I can get is C1. This is not an issue but the sharpened C1 is.

I've checked the cv voltage with a multimeter and it is showing the correct voltages. Is there a reset that will recalibrate the input voltage for C1?
Did you find a resolution for this? Im facing similar issues, where neutral calibrated outputs are giving different pitches to v/oct directly into an oscillator.

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Re: Klavis - CalTrans

Post by Dizzy » Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:27 am

Dizzy wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:06 pm
I droned it with an lfo ( Pulse Audio Rate )recently and then it worked. Maybe not perfekt, but good enough.

Thank you
Hello again. I was trying to get a better result ( Klavis - BIA ). At the moment Klavis just give me the Yellow LED 3 and 4. That is now to less for me. My question is does it make a difference how fast the trigger LFO is? How can I get a better Result, with more yellow LEDs on the Klavis?

Thank you

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Re: Klavis - CalTrans

Post by donutschool » Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:16 am

Zentek wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:13 am
This relates to the Caltrans inputs calibration.
Regarding the input V/Oct calibration:

Is there a way to reset the input calibration to default other than re-calibrating each channel with a known "good" V/OCT source or a voltmeter?

(There's neutral calibration for the output, pressing both encoders for transpose - but what about input?)

Also, does a user input calibration affect any subsequent neutral calibration? I ask because (unlike the regular output calibration, the neutral calibration process uses the input jacks...)

Obviously you can try to keep one preset free of input calibration... but since the input calibration is "invisible" it would be very easy to accidentally copy it between presets, so it would be good to have a way to make sure...

Thanks.

PS: Minor typo in the 1.4 manual, P17, step 8 "note you hit in Step 5" should be "note you hit in Step 6" - i think.

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soon_come
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Re: Klavis - CalTrans

Post by soon_come » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:41 am

Is Zentek still around? I'm curious about answers to these questions, I really like this module in theory.

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Paulyvoks
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Re: Klavis - CalTrans

Post by Paulyvoks » Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:03 pm

Well...hopefully I can exchange the one I just got. Seems channel 3 won't select nor calibrate.

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Re: Klavis - CalTrans

Post by dip_registered » Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:48 am

How does CalTrans go with oscillators such as metasonix RK7, buchla red panel 158, etc? Anyone tried?

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Re: Klavis - CalTrans

Post by dip_registered » Wed Dec 23, 2020 1:51 am

Sorry for the double post...

I’m trying to work out if this is a good route to go if one of my oscillator’s doesn’t have a sync input... so I can use it to ‘sync’ the oscillators I want to sync together. Does anyone use it this way? For FM purposes, etc.

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Re: Klavis - CalTrans

Post by soon_come » Wed Dec 23, 2020 3:12 am

dip_registered wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 1:51 am
Sorry for the double post...

I’m trying to work out if this is a good route to go if one of my oscillator’s doesn’t have a sync input... so I can use it to ‘sync’ the oscillators I want to sync together. Does anyone use it this way? For FM purposes, etc.
This doesn’t really have anything to do with that... this is for calibrating the tuning of the oscillator by compensating for irregularities in the 1V/oct tracking.

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Re: Klavis - CalTrans

Post by auditorycanvas » Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:39 am

Can someone please give me a sanity check? I just got a new Caltrans, and calibrated Osc 1 and 2 of an Instruo Cs-L, and a plaits. All calibrations went successfully, with full range on all oscillators.

The trouble is, that they're all now tracking worse than plugging a sequencer or keyboard direct to the oscillators, all 3 channels seem off by almost the same amount.

I've set the transpose encoder to C on a tuner for all oscillators. I'm then sending a sequence of C0, C1, C2, C3, and C4 (I've checked the calibration of the sequencer (Erica Synths BLack Sequencer) with 2 volt meters, both telling me C0 to C6 are accurately outputting 0-6 volts), and also tried with a keyboard which is also well calibrated.

With the caltrans quantizer off on all channels, I get the following:

Cs-L Osc 1 and 2:

C0 = +31 cents
C1 = -14 cents
C2 = -5 cents
C3 = +3 cents
C4 = +10 cents

Plaits:
C0 = +30 cents
C1 = -16 cents
C2 = -7 cents
C3 = +2 cents
C4 = +10 cents

With the channels quantized by Caltrans (quantize button and selecting all three channels), all oscillators are within 3 cents across C0 to C4.

If I plug the Sequencer directly into the Oscillators, tracking across C0 to C4 is within 10 cents on the Cs-L, and within 2 or 3 cents on the Plaits.

Could this be down to the input calibration on the Caltrans? I haven't messed with that, but is there a way to reset it just in case that's it? I've only saved one preset, and tried the other 3 which should have stock input calibration(?) and they all give the same results.

This isn't expected right? Am I missing something? Is there a way to factory reset the module in case that helps?

I've reloaded the firmware a few times, and also tried a neutral calibration on each channel and then redoing the V/Oct calibration, but still get the same results. Also of note is that the Neutral calibration gave very odd results, and not the same as plugging directly to the oscillators from the sequencer.

For reference, the module is in a Pittsburgh Modular Ep-420 case, with plenty of power headroom. https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/1425776

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Re: Klavis - CalTrans

Post by soon_come » Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:55 am

I’m also still curious for some answers to these last few questions. Paging Zentek...

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Re: Klavis - CalTrans

Post by donutschool » Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:21 pm

*bump* for more info from Klavis on the questions in this thread, especially the input calibration feature. Sadly, I don't think this feature is currently usable without some visual indication when a custom calibration is in effect and/or a reset-to-factory feature.
auditorycanvas wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:39 am
(I've checked the calibration of the sequencer (Erica Synths BLack Sequencer) with 2 volt meters, both telling me C0 to C6 are accurately outputting 0-6 volts), and also tried with a keyboard which is also well calibrated.
Just a Public Service Announcement that you need a really good, probably professionally calibrated, volt meter to reliably check V/oct calibration - 1 cent at 1 v/oct is less than a millivolt, but an accuracy of only +/- 2% (i.e. +/- 0.12V on 6V) is not uncommon on general-purpose multimeters (even when they display 3 decimal places). Note that Klavis' instructions are "Voltmeter with 4.5 digit display or better and millivolt precision" - the first doesn't guarantee the second! You'll pay good money to get that "millivolt precision". If you've got a good tuner, the fact that your sequencer summons the correct notes from decent, modern VCOs like Plaits and CS-L is probably a better measure.
With the caltrans quantizer off on all channels, I get the following:
What "starting note" did you tune your oscillator to before running the calibration? It shouldn't be too low, especially if your VCO can be driven negative - maybe try starting an octave or so higher (and maybe sacrificing the ability to play C0, which is really LFO territory anyway).

At the end of the calibration process, when you have to get the VCO actually in tune, you should be able to use the transpose knob to get the VCO within less than a semitone of the correct note and only need a very small correction to the actual VCO tuning.

Another thing to try - don't attach the sequencer to the Caltrans, fine-tune the VCO to the nearest semitone, then crank the octave transpose knob up and down and see how well the VCO tracks. If that's OK it sounds like an input calibration problem.

NB: The Klavis specs say that the frequency response of the calibration input only goes down to 20Hz - so it's no big surprise that it gets C0 (16.35 Hz) badly wrong.

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Re: Klavis - CalTrans

Post by auditorycanvas » Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:41 pm

Thanks very much for the sanity check. Your idea of using the octave encoder before plugging in a sequencer highlighted the issue.

One thing I forgot to to correct in my post is that I was reading the note value from the Sequencer which calls C1 C0. I meant to swap them out when I posted and forgot. So Where I've said C0, I meant C1.
donutschool wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:21 pm

Just a Public Service Announcement that you need a really good, probably professionally calibrated, volt meter to reliably check V/oct calibration - 1 cent at 1 v/oct is less than a millivolt, but an accuracy of only +/- 2% (i.e. +/- 0.12V on 6V) is not uncommon on general-purpose multimeters (even when they display 3 decimal places). Note that Klavis' instructions are "Voltmeter with 4.5 digit display or better and millivolt precision" - the first doesn't guarantee the second! You'll pay good money to get that "millivolt precision". If you've got a good tuner, the fact that your sequencer summons the correct notes from decent, modern VCOs like Plaits and CS-L is probably a better measure.
I'm using a semi decent DMM with 3 decimal digits on a 6V range. I feel that getting within 9 cents across C1 to C5 on the Cs-L, and within 3 cents on the Plaits going direct from the sequencer to the oscillators suggests the sequencer and keyboard are relatively well calibrated?
What "starting note" did you tune your oscillator to before running the calibration? It shouldn't be too low, especially if your VCO can be driven negative - maybe try starting an octave or so higher (and maybe sacrificing the ability to play C0, which is really LFO territory anyway).
I set the Cs-L to B1 as a starting note to ensure I could reach C1 once calibrated.
At the end of the calibration process, when you have to get the VCO actually in tune, you should be able to use the transpose knob to get the VCO within less than a semitone of the correct note and only need a very small correction to the actual VCO tuning.
I just did the V/Oct calibration again. The note straight after was 50 cents under C1. I fine tuned it to C1.
Another thing to try - don't attach the sequencer to the Caltrans, fine-tune the VCO to the nearest semitone, then crank the octave transpose knob up and down and see how well the VCO tracks. If that's OK it sounds like an input calibration problem.
Thank you, this was the golden idea! I didn't try this before, and this seems to highlight the issue. It's within 2 cents across C1 to C6 when using the octave encoder.

As soon as I plugin a sequencer or keyboard, and send C1 to C5, things quickly go downhill. So it seems it maybe input calibration? How on earth do I reset that? It's the same across all presets. I only saved 1 preset, so 3 of the presets were stock (unless someone played with it prior to me receiving it from the store).

This might explains why turning on the quantizer corrects the issue.

For reference, and to support this, before redoing a V/Oct calibration on the Caltrans, I got the following going straight from the sequencer and also a keyboard to the Cs-L:
Osc 1:
C1 = -3 cents
C2 = -7 cents
C3 = -spot on
C4 = +6 cents
C5 = +9 cents

Osc 2:
C1 = -4 cents
C2 = -8 cents
C3 = Spot on
C4 = +6 cents
C5 = +9 cents

Thanks again for taking the time to think this over and give me a sanity check, I was beginning to go nuts.

Now I just need to figure out how to reset the input calibration...

Edit. This is odd. I tune the oscillator with the fine tune right after calibration to get the note completely in tune. It then stays in tune across all octave using the octave encoder. If I then turn the quantizer on for that channel, it goes 50 cents out of tune.

Regarding resetting the input tuning, I found this in the manual:

"On the CalTrans, after holding the P/G button over two seconds, press the button of the selected channel.
a. The P/G, Calibration and channel LEDs are now flashing
b. The encoders adjust the scaling as follows:
 Octave controls the coarse setting
 Semitone controls the fine setting (1/20th of coarse)
c. The top row LEDs gives an indication of the setting, min (off) to max (full)"

When I held the p/g button and clicked channel 1, the lights at the top suggested there was adjustment, so I turned the octave and semi encoders all the way down until it showed there was no adjustment. I then saved this to preset 4. It didn't resolve the issue. I also don't know what factory stock setting is - are these manually tuned with adjustments, or is zero adjustment stock, and should be correct?

I'm beginning to wonder if my unit is defective?
Last edited by auditorycanvas on Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Klavis - CalTrans

Post by donutschool » Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:16 pm

auditorycanvas wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:41 pm
Now I just need to figure out how to reset the input calibration...
In the absence of anybody coming up with a factory reset procedure - and given that it sounds like your keyboard and sequencer are well behaved - I guess you just follow the input calibration instructions on P16-17 of the manual.

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Re: Klavis - CalTrans

Post by auditorycanvas » Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:19 pm

donutschool wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:16 pm
auditorycanvas wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:41 pm
Now I just need to figure out how to reset the input calibration...
In the absence of anybody coming up with a factory reset procedure - and given that it sounds like your keyboard and sequencer are well behaved - I guess you just follow the input calibration instructions on P16-17 of the manual.
Regarding resetting the input tuning, I found this in the manual:

"On the CalTrans, after holding the P/G button over two seconds, press the button of the selected channel.
a. The P/G, Calibration and channel LEDs are now flashing
b. The encoders adjust the scaling as follows:
 Octave controls the coarse setting
 Semitone controls the fine setting (1/20th of coarse)
c. The top row LEDs gives an indication of the setting, min (off) to max (full)"

When I held the p/g button and clicked channel 1, the lights at the top suggested there was adjustment, so I turned the octave and semi encoders all the way down until it showed there was no adjustment. I then saved this to preset 4. It didn't resolve the issue. I also don't know what factory stock setting is - are these manually tuned with adjustments, or is zero adjustment stock, and should be correct?

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Re: Klavis - CalTrans

Post by donutschool » Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:22 pm

auditorycanvas wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:19 pm
I also don't know what factory stock setting is - are these manually tuned with adjustments, or is zero adjustment stock, and should be correct?
...this would be nice to know :-)

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Re: Klavis - CalTrans

Post by soon_come » Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:51 pm

TBH I've kinda stopped using it since experiencing similar issues with input calibration and not being able to get it to neutral again. It could be user error, but I just haven't had the time to dig back into it. I love Klavis designs in general (I have a few other modules) but I'm not quite sold on this one yet.

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Re: Klavis - CalTrans

Post by acidbob » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:12 am

Can the Caltrans be used as a voltage source or adder? As I can understand output 1 is normalled to the rest, so a mult in a way?

Asking because I currently have the chalkboard and I am not really using it due to it not being precise enough, maybe I have high expectations.

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Re: Klavis - CalTrans

Post by Naenyn » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:15 pm

acidbob wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:12 am
Can the Caltrans be used as a voltage source or adder? As I can understand output 1 is normalled to the rest, so a mult in a way?
Interesting question. I would think yes, albeit with some imprecision or at least lack of control? After calibrating a channel, CalTrans allows you to transpose... so would think you could feed it whatever CV you wanted and add/subtract based on the calibration+controls. Think I may have to mess with this. I hadn’t considered using it for anything other than working with finicky VCOs. :hmm:
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Re: Klavis - CalTrans

Post by donutschool » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:00 pm

acidbob wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:12 am
Can the Caltrans be used as a voltage source or adder? As I can understand output 1 is normalled to the rest, so a mult in a way?
Well, yes - without calibration, that's exactly what it does - the two knobs add/subtract voltages in 1V (octave) and 1/12V (semitone) increments to the corresponding input. The offset/transposition has to be dialled in using the knobs, though - you can't control it with a CV.

Also, the 4 input channels are, by default, normaled together so, yes, it will split one input CV four ways "like a mult". The octave/semitone offests are set per-output channel though (push the channel button 1-4 to control the offsets for that channel) so if you use it as a 1-4 "mult" you can't change the offset of all 4 outputs together.

One limitation is that it only accepts CV inputs between 0-7V - which is problematic if your CV source generates negative voltages for lower notes. On the other hand, the output is -3 to 7V after any octave shift is applied so it can drive oscillators to lower frequencies.

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Re: Klavis - CalTrans

Post by acidbob » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:37 am

Thank you so much for the feedback. I am strongly considering it. I would be using it with my uTune which also has VCO offset/calibration feature but it's not that easy changing octaves/semitones with it.

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Re: Klavis - CalTrans

Post by donutschool » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:46 am

acidbob wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:37 am
Thank you so much for the feedback. I am strongly considering it. I would be using it with my uTune which also has VCO offset/calibration feature but it's not that easy changing octaves/semitones with it.
Hmmm... I'd be a bit cautious with having two tuner/calibrators. What I didn't mention was that apart from a Keystep and a MiniBrute 2s (which is the sort of thing CalTrans works well with) I've also been trying to use it with an ES8 and Silent Way which involves its own auto-calibration step, that doesn't always play nicely with the Caltrans - it does work, but really complicates things and leads to a lot of head scratching as to where to tune your oscillators and adjust the transposition in order to get a good, usable range. I hesitate to flag that as a problem because my own reaction is "well, don't do that then!" - it is no great surprise that two tuner/calibrators in the loop is headache-fuel.

I would have thought that, if your oscillators are well behaved, the chalkboard might have been a more straightforward alternative - but you say you have precision problems... (or have you looked at the WMD Volt?)

That said, there doesn't seem to be a huge range of octave shifters/voltage generators to choose from - less with semitone transposition (although you could use an attenuator and a quantiser for that) and the Caltrans seems to offer the best "bangs per buck".

The danger with a module like this is that you end up obsessing about getting cent-accurate tracking from sub-sonic to bat-repellant rather than just getting it "good enough for analogue" and getting on with it... :-)

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Re: Klavis - CalTrans

Post by acidbob » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:27 pm

donutschool wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:46 am
acidbob wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:37 am
Thank you so much for the feedback. I am strongly considering it. I would be using it with my uTune which also has VCO offset/calibration feature but it's not that easy changing octaves/semitones with it.
Hmmm... I'd be a bit cautious with having two tuner/calibrators. What I didn't mention was that apart from a Keystep and a MiniBrute 2s (which is the sort of thing CalTrans works well with) I've also been trying to use it with an ES8 and Silent Way which involves its own auto-calibration step, that doesn't always play nicely with the Caltrans - it does work, but really complicates things and leads to a lot of head scratching as to where to tune your oscillators and adjust the transposition in order to get a good, usable range. I hesitate to flag that as a problem because my own reaction is "well, don't do that then!" - it is no great surprise that two tuner/calibrators in the loop is headache-fuel.

I would have thought that, if your oscillators are well behaved, the chalkboard might have been a more straightforward alternative - but you say you have precision problems... (or have you looked at the WMD Volt?)

That said, there doesn't seem to be a huge range of octave shifters/voltage generators to choose from - less with semitone transposition (although you could use an attenuator and a quantiser for that) and the Caltrans seems to offer the best "bangs per buck".

The danger with a module like this is that you end up obsessing about getting cent-accurate tracking from sub-sonic to bat-repellant rather than just getting it "good enough for analogue" and getting on with it... :-)
Thanks so much for your input. I was thinking about ditching the uTune auto calibration feature and use the Caltrans instead, the reason for this is that the outputs on the uTune are kind of expensive, meaning that each time you add another oscillator you remove that one from being able to be used for midi CC. And for patches that needs two or three VCO's but you dont want to play them individually then the Caltrans makes sense.

I have looked at WMD volt, but it doesn't feature individual handling of the outputs, as far as I can understand.

My oscillators arent that well behaved.

Maybe I should try it, Thomann have them in stock and have great return policy, I could try and see how well it works and not actually mount the module in my rack.

One thing I dont understand is why the calibration process is so fast? It seemed extremely fast from the video I watched, I am a bit concerned about that.

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Re: Klavis - CalTrans

Post by donutschool » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:44 pm

acidbob wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:27 pm
One thing I dont understand is why the calibration process is so fast? It seemed extremely fast from the video I watched, I am a bit concerned about that.
They may have sped up/jump cut the video - calibration certainly isn't instant (not in position to time it just now, but I'd say it's between 15 and 60 secs, depending on the situation). That said, all it has to do is output a range of voltages and measure the frequencies produced - I think the longest part of the process is finding the lowest pitch CV that the oscillator responds to. If you monitor the audio you can hear it quickly run through the notes and then, sometimes, spend some time "hunting" for the lowest note.

Then there's "neutral calibration" where you just feed the output back into the input - that is very quick - I think it's just detecting that it is connected that way and re-setting.

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Re: Klavis - CalTrans

Post by acidbob » Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:21 am

Ah thank you so much, yeah, I couldnt understand how quickly it was in the video haha

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