Schippmann to end Eurorack production

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Michael
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Re: Schippmann to end Eurorack production

Post by Michael » Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:31 pm

DTG built in VCA question - I’m a little confused by the explanation in section 8.7 of the manual. Is this basically a linear VCA to scale the overall output level, like you can send velocity cv to that input? (same as the “level” input some EGs have - Intellijel Dual ADSR for example)

Thanks

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Re: Schippmann to end Eurorack production

Post by damase » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:07 pm

Michael wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:31 pm
DTG built in VCA question - I’m a little confused by the explanation in section 8.7 of the manual. Is this basically a linear VCA to scale the overall output level, like you can send velocity cv to that input? (same as the “level” input some EGs have - Intellijel Dual ADSR for example)

Thanks
my understanding is yes, except it also accepts bi-polar voltages and is normalized to -5v, so without an external cv input it outputs the inverse envelope. the wording in that section does go far out though for me too

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Re: Schippmann to end Eurorack production

Post by monads » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:08 am

I'm in/ordered the DTG! Not sure I'd ditch an ADSR-VC2 in place of though cause the 4hp difference. I'm more needing that dual quad-LFO.

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Re: Schippmann to end Eurorack production

Post by Jee » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:59 am

damase wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:07 pm
Michael wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:31 pm
DTG built in VCA question - I’m a little confused by the explanation in section 8.7 of the manual. Is this basically a linear VCA to scale the overall output level, like you can send velocity cv to that input? (same as the “level” input some EGs have - Intellijel Dual ADSR for example)

Thanks
my understanding is yes, except it also accepts bi-polar voltages and is normalized to -5v, so without an external cv input it outputs the inverse envelope. the wording in that section does go far out though for me too
Yeah the wording is hard to follow... :lol:
+1 with the understanding.

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Re: Schippmann to end Eurorack production

Post by Schippmann » Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:42 am

Jee wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:59 am
Yeah the wording is hard to follow... :lol:
+1 with the understanding.
This is interessting. How, exacly would you describe it (without graphics)? Or is it bad English?

Anyway, at all you've understood me correct:)

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Re: Schippmann to end Eurorack production

Post by Jee » Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:54 am

I wouldn't say bad english, I would politely say "slightly creative sometimes" :)
With the complexity of the module it's sometimes hard to figure out.
The VCA section was kind of OK I got it, what puzzled me a little more is this part for example:

8.8 Waveform shaping
By feed-back the envelope output to the time CV control jacks (9), (14) and
(22) a very markedly change of the envelope curve is possible. This is shown in
the Fig. 9 and Fig. 10. This feed-back will also affect the total phase time, which
is correctable by counteracting either via the time controller (10), (15), (21) or
by further adding correction voltages at the CV control jacks (9), (14) and (22).
For the decay and release phases it could become some tricky, because the
end state or the initial state, resp. is variable for these two phases. Hence, this
state influences the grade of curve bending and the time correction.
Nevertheless, very good results can achieved with this technique.

I get the thing of re-inserting the envelope to the time CV's but didn't quite get the details and how the positive or negative feedback works :)

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Re: Schippmann to end Eurorack production

Post by damase » Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:05 am

Schippmann wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:42 am
Jee wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:59 am
Yeah the wording is hard to follow... :lol:
+1 with the understanding.
This is interessting. How, exacly would you describe it (without graphics)? Or is it bad English?

Anyway, at all you've understood me correct:)
thank for clarifying,
for me it was just this “The scale of jack 23 is 1V/V. This refers to the final attack value, means ±X V are leading to a final attack value of ±X V” —- which is just a bit more ‘technically correct’ than what you usually see in a manual. However i much prefer your manuals, i think you put a crazy amount of effort into a limited run, when some manufacturers dont even make manuals at all anymore.

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Re: Schippmann to end Eurorack production

Post by damase » Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:11 am

monads wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:08 am
I'm in/ordered the DTG! Not sure I'd ditch an ADSR-VC2 in place of though cause the 4hp difference. I'm more needing that dual quad-LFO.
ive never tried the cwejman, i expect it to be very nice as usual (no fuss, easy, is important). Its just so... ‘bread and butter’ in comparison though! granted, i was soon to end up with one myself if schippmann didnt release the DTG... but ive been using the verbos multi envelope and while its certainly not perfect i have really come to appreciate the musical value of having unique features like delay phase right at the core of my patch.

In the case of the DTG also, im seeing so many ways to self patch making one super complex modulation envelope, certainly worth 4 hp for the possibilities ;)

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Re: Schippmann to end Eurorack production

Post by Michael » Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:36 am

Thanks for the clarification, everyone. Seems like a great module.

I’m on the fence here (not sure I would ever use the gate/delay functionality), but there isn’t much time to be on the fence :). I got the second to last Omega Phi not long ago. It’s good enough that after only a few days I decided to buy that last one but it was already gone.

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Re: Schippmann to end Eurorack production

Post by Schippmann » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:47 am

Jee wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:54 am
...The VCA section was kind of OK I got it, what puzzled me a little more is this part for example:

8.8 Waveform shaping
By feed-back the envelope output to the time CV control jacks (9), (14) and
(22) a very markedly change of the envelope curve is possible. This is shown in
the Fig. 9 and Fig. 10. This feed-back will also affect the total phase time, which
is correctable by counteracting either via the time controller (10), (15), (21) or
by further adding correction voltages at the CV control jacks (9), (14) and (22).
For the decay and release phases it could become some tricky, because the
end state or the initial state, resp. is variable for these two phases. Hence, this
state influences the grade of curve bending and the time correction.
Nevertheless, very good results can achieved with this technique.

I get the thing of re-inserting the envelope to the time CV's but didn't quite get the details and how the positive or negative feedback works :)
Ah, ok, I presumed, that it's obvious that this mentioned positive/negative feedback will have an accellerating /de-accellerating effect on the curves. This is shown by the graphs. And I presumed that you'll make experiments with attenuverters or something between the Env-Out and that CV-time ins (using the bipolar VCA is a good idea, too;). To explain mathematically what exactly will happen is quite impossible, the equations are heavy and only to solve numerically with a computer and a good mathsoftware.

Cheers,
C.

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Re: Schippmann to end Eurorack production

Post by Jee » Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:35 am

OK so in short if we send the negative output of the VCA env to the time it will negatively feedback and vice versa, simply?

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Re: Schippmann to end Eurorack production

Post by Schippmann » Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:42 am

Jee wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:35 am
OK so in short if we send the negative output of the VCA env to the time it will negatively feedback and vice versa, simply?
Aha, yep, this was meant.
positive fb: non-inverse Env Out to CV-time; negative fb: inverse Env Out to CV-time
Best is to make experiments. The results are really impressing. And you need time correction. To keep the whole range of 100 µs to 20 s, you'll need an adder, means [Env Out (pos/neg) + correction voltage (pos/neg)] to CV-time in.

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Re: Schippmann to end Eurorack production

Post by Jee » Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:49 am

OK clear enough now, thanks Carsten.
If we don't use correction offset, what will be the actual range?
100µs is insanely short, we might no need it all the time (but will be awesome in audio range!!)

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Re: Schippmann to end Eurorack production

Post by Schippmann » Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:01 am

Jee wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:49 am
If we don't use correction offset, what will be the actual range?
depends strongly on fb depth, but PLEASE no more questions - no time - EXPERIMENT!!!
Jee wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:49 am
100µs is insanely short, we might no need it all the time (but will be awesome in audio range!!)
don't say that. in my experience even this range between 100 µs and 1 ms is a very important range with evident influences on the sound (listen carefully when you design sounds)....

Ciao & bye
C.

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Re: Schippmann to end Eurorack production

Post by Jee » Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:15 am

We will experiment don't worry.
I didn't say 100µs was useless I said I might not need it all the time so might no need correction all the time either, nuance :)
anyway, let's see in august.

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Re: Schippmann to end Eurorack production

Post by Schippmann » Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:59 pm

Hello everybody!

Unfortunately, I've not too much time for watching the forum, hope you understand;)
If you have burning questions feel free to write me.

cheers,
Carsten
Last edited by Schippmann on Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:28 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Schippmann to end Eurorack production

Post by Gambeat » Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:12 pm

;(

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Re: Schippmann to end Eurorack production

Post by 3pand » Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:00 pm

The one question I had relates to the drawing of the delay mode on pg. 17 of the English manual. The drawing seems to show that if the incoming gate signal is less than the overall delay time, there will be no gate output after the delay time is finished? If my interpretation is correct, then to me this makes it more of a "timed mute" on the gate input rather than a gate delay. I'm looking at the second, shorter gate input in the drawing and it is shorter than the delay time and so the upper drawing shows no gate being output after the delay time is finished.

Anyway, no problem if Carsten is busy, I wonder what others think? Plus, I already ordered.

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Re: Schippmann to end Eurorack production

Post by Schippmann » Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:34 pm

Gambeat wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:12 pm
;(
c'mon
Last edited by Schippmann on Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Schippmann to end Eurorack production

Post by Schippmann » Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:50 pm

3pand wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:00 pm
The one question I had relates to the drawing of the delay mode on pg. 17 of the English manual. The drawing seems to show that if the incoming gate signal is less than the overall delay time, there will be no gate output after the delay time is finished? If my interpretation is correct, then to me this makes it more of a "timed mute" on the gate input rather than a gate delay. I'm looking at the second, shorter gate input in the drawing and it is shorter than the delay time and so the upper drawing shows no gate being output after the delay time is finished.
Everything you wrote is correct. And what is the question? I never called it "Gate delay", I calledl it Gate/Delay, because a transition and therefore a Gate-start can be delayed - in Delay mode. I understand what you mean. But there is no memory which safes the complete Gate (on - time - off) and reproduces it delayed. Apart from the enormeous efforts to solve this by analoge and also digital (not without a processor) techniques, this was never intended. But you can start a row of things by a chain of analog delayed Triggers - in Delay mode. It is what it is and this is explained in the manual. Call it time mute if you feel better then...:)

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Re: Schippmann to end Eurorack production

Post by damase » Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:26 pm

you can start a row of things by a chain of analog delayed Triggers - in Delay mode
care to elaborate? seems like an idea that could be useful. if the gate delay is longer than an input gate does it output nothing?

no rush for answers here, im committed anyway!

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Re: Schippmann to end Eurorack production

Post by 3pand » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:29 pm

Schippmann wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:50 pm

Everything you wrote is correct. And what is the question? I never called it "Gate delay", I calledl it Gate/Delay, because a transition and therefore a Gate-start can be delayed - in Delay mode. I understand what you mean. But there is no memory which safes the complete Gate (on - time - off) and reproduces it delayed. Apart from the enormeous efforts to solve this by analoge and also digital (not without a processor) techniques, this was never intended. But you can start a row of things by a chain of analog delayed Triggers - in Delay mode. It is what it is and this is explained in the manual. Call it time mute if you feel better then...:)
Thank you for the clarification. I should have known I was just missing something obvious. Your Gate/Delay vs. the Gate Delay that I thought makes sense now.

unimportant note-I think I got the gate delay idea in my head from page 2 of the manual when the preview manual was available. On page 2, there is a sentence that uses the term gate delay "outputs (externally switchable) the incoming Gate signal by a definite delay time (Gate Delay)." and so when I later saw the drawing later on page 17 it didn't match with what I was expecting.

More importantly-it's much more exciting to have this new and unique behavior. Looking forward to exploring the possibilities!

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Re: Schippmann to end Eurorack production

Post by 3pand » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:32 pm

damase wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:26 pm
you can start a row of things by a chain of analog delayed Triggers - in Delay mode
care to elaborate? seems like an idea that could be useful. if the gate delay is longer than an input gate does it output nothing?

no rush for answers here, im committed anyway!
Yes according to the drawing on pg. 17 and to Carsten above, if the gate delay time is longer than the incoming gate, nothing will be output. If the incoming gate is longer than the delay time, then the portion of it that is longer will be output after the delay time setting.

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Re: Schippmann to end Eurorack production

Post by Jee » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:41 am

I think I prefer this "mute delay" as it is rather than a "digital delay" that simply postpones the gate,I find it more flexible? We can then trigger long notes and get the triggered element (say an EG) that will not be triggered if we don't reach the delay but will be if we hold long enough the note.
Otherwise the delay would trigger inappropriately the EG after the note is released and could be odd / inconvenient in some cases ? (especially if the EG is linked to a VCA opening it while the note is off).
I can't wait to experiment!
I think the first test I will do except the most basic one (trigger the EG and check the segments) is to use both outputs of the EG : one to a VCA and the other one to a VCF and replicate a lowpass gate behaviour while stil being able to dose the effect on the filter.
I will also test my stomach resistance to coffee because I assume I will explore this thing days and nights :)

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Re: Schippmann to end Eurorack production

Post by oneiric.tomb » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:12 am

Ordered dtg as well, do we know when the dlfo preorders open? after all dtgs have sold?
WTB:
Schippmann Omega Phi mk2
Cwejman BLD-2
Cwejman PH-8

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