Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

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Re: Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

Post by AugustusArnone » Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:21 pm

This is really great, thanks you guys. I now own both modules and also now understand both way better than before this thread. I'm sure everyone is getting something different out of it, but I have a lot of new information I want to listen for while using these, very appreciative of the discussion.

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Re: Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

Post by Mr.Kus » Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:57 pm

Yes, thanks for all the information! This have been very interesting conversation, even though large part of it goes way over my head and only oscilator mentioned I have is Generate3.

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Re: Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

Post by scragz » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:26 pm

This is by far the best nerd fight I've had the pleasure of reading since joining muffs.

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Re: Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

Post by Spindrift » Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:24 am

Think it is the best nerd fight I ever read, anywhere :)

Don't understand half of it, but really love the passion!

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Re: Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

Post by Rex Coil 7 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:11 pm

keyofnight wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:16 pm
...Like, I don't think you're a bully, I just think you think this linguistic dispute matters, or that there's a serious disagreement here, or that you're defending the boundaries of TZFM or something. Honestly, the whole conversation just makes me think this community is annoying sometimes—it reminds me of why I don't come on here so much.
Like, generalize much? Like, hit the bricks if we're ALL such buttheads here. Like, whatever. Like. 'N stuff.

"This community" .... zat so? Y'know, insulting or mocking someone is no way to get them to see (or take) your side of an issue. If "this community" doesn't rise to your level of expectation, well then (I think you know the rest). Just be careful on your way down from that high horse you're ridin' .... if you slip it's a loooong way down from those heights. That's some rarefied air you're flyin' in.





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5U PROJECT - (skip pages 4 through 6, boring junk) ... viewtopic.php?t=78836&highlight=
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Re: Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

Post by Dr. Sketch-n-Etch » Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:24 pm

Well, Rexy, he does have a point. This community is pretty annoying.
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Re: Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

Post by tommygee » Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:37 pm

Endless technical discussions....

Back in 1993 I bought a used PPG+Waveterm B. They guy who sold it kindly came out one day to demonstrate some of the more deeper aspects of the Waveterm. He explained for hours - had way more technical, theoretical knowledge than I did. It was a sunny day, warm as hell, no air in my studio. Towards the end of the demonstration it struck my mind how extremely much this guy knew about the PPG/Waveterm B - and that the sounds he was making was boring as fuck....

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Re: Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

Post by Dr. Sketch-n-Etch » Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:38 pm

tommygee wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:37 pm
Endless technical discussions....

Back in 1993 I bought a used PPG+Waveterm B. They guy who sold it kindly came out one day to demonstrate some of the more deeper aspects of the Waveterm. He explained for hours - had way more technical, theoretical knowledge than I did. It was a sunny day, warm as hell, no air in my studio. Towards the end of the demonstration it struck my mind how extremely much this guy knew about the PPG/Waveterm B - and that the sounds he was making was boring as fuck....
Knowledge ain't talent.
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Re: Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

Post by diggida » Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:53 pm

A truly interesting and entertaining thread. In addition to all the deep and technical descriptions of synthesis, engineering, and mathematics, it is a an excellent example of how difficult it is for humans to communicate, especially via text! 😆

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Re: Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

Post by diggida » Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:54 pm

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:38 pm
tommygee wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:37 pm
Endless technical discussions....

Back in 1993 I bought a used PPG+Waveterm B. They guy who sold it kindly came out one day to demonstrate some of the more deeper aspects of the Waveterm. He explained for hours - had way more technical, theoretical knowledge than I did. It was a sunny day, warm as hell, no air in my studio. Towards the end of the demonstration it struck my mind how extremely much this guy knew about the PPG/Waveterm B - and that the sounds he was making was boring as fuck....
Knowledge ain't talent.
+1, though knowledge plus talent can be powerful.

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Re: Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

Post by dp4 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:41 pm

nobody posted cynthia’s zero video yet?

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Re: Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

Post by scragz » Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:55 pm

dp4 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:41 pm
nobody posted cynthia’s zero video yet?
Post it!

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Re: Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

Post by dp4 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:04 pm

amazing


scragz wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:55 pm
dp4 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:41 pm
nobody posted cynthia’s zero video yet?
Post it!

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Re: Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

Post by scragz » Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:30 pm

dp4 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:04 pm
amazing
Thanks! This is great. Definitely linking next time someone asks what the point of TZFM is. You might still have to retune but it's a totally different sound.

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Re: Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

Post by keyofnight » Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:28 pm

Rex Coil 7 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:11 pm
keyofnight wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:16 pm
...Like, I don't think you're a bully, I just think you think this linguistic dispute matters, or that there's a serious disagreement here, or that you're defending the boundaries of TZFM or something. Honestly, the whole conversation just makes me think this community is annoying sometimes—it reminds me of why I don't come on here so much.
Like, generalize much? Like, hit the bricks if we're ALL such buttheads here. Like, whatever. Like. 'N stuff.

"This community" .... zat so? Y'know, insulting or mocking someone is no way to get them to see (or take) your side of an issue. If "this community" doesn't rise to your level of expectation, well then (I think you know the rest). Just be careful on your way down from that high horse you're ridin' .... if you slip it's a loooong way down from those heights. That's some rarefied air you're flyin' in.
Yeah, I've had some bad experiences. But get it straight: I didn't say anything about "everyone" or "all" people on this site. A whole party can turn tedious if just one person does something annoying. So… yeah! Sometimes this community can be annoying, but much (or most) of the time it isn't. I also didn't insult or mock anyone. I just described the arguments folks were making, why they were problematic, and what my experience of this conversation was. I said that experiences like these are part of the reason I don't visit this forum as much as I would otherwise. (There are certainly awesome people here, and I love synths, so I keep coming back, but I often see these weird jousting matches where people accuse each other of things when I do. It's the accusations that worry me more than anything, tbh.)

I also wasn't trying to get anyone to "take my side" of an issue. Honestly, I didn't have a side other than, "Please try to understand each other." I think both Sketch and Pedagog were responsive to that, though, in the end. So it turned out fine, and we got some excellent information.

If being honest and open about what it's like to be on this forum sometimes (and I mean that: only sometimes) means that I'm acting high and mighty, then so be it. I don't agree, of course, but oh well.
dp4 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:04 pm
amazing
It's a classic. 8-)

I also found this one pretty helpful too, as an introduction to exponential/linear/tzfm.

"…an answer which cannot be expressed the question too cannot be expressed. […] If a question can be put at all, then it can also be answered." Wittgenstein, Tractatus, §6.52

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Re: Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

Post by Dr. Sketch-n-Etch » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:29 pm

Hey keyofnight, I see that you have quoted from Wittgenstein's Tractatus in your signature. You might find it amusing to know that I also quoted from that work in the summary chapter of my PhD thesis, "Predicting the Kinetics of Heap Leaching with Unsteady State Models." In my case, it was passage 5.551: "Our fundamental principle is that every question which can be decided at all by logic (mathematics) can be decided without further trouble. (And if we get into a situation where we need to answer such a problem by looking at the world, this shows that we are on a fundamentally wrong track.)" I suggesting replacing the word "logic" with the word "mathematics" and this, more or less, became the guiding principle for my academic career (at least at first).

Then, a bit later, I had a classics professor try to translate my motto into Latin. The motto was "Model the Ideal and make Reality conform." The Latin translation was "Perfecta fingamus serviat natura" which isn't an exact translation, or even a very good one, but this was in my email signature for about 25 years. In any case, the idea behind my motto is that there isn't much justification in trying to model non-ideal situations (such as poorly constructed heap leaching processes), especially since doing so is incredibly hard and the payoff is typically pretty small. It is far better to conceive of the ideal situation (e.g., the perfect heap leach) and then model that, and use this ideal model to guide engineering of the near-ideal reality. It's the same idea behind assuming ideal opamps when doing circuit design and analysis. We know they are not actually ideal, but 98% of what is important about them is captured in that ideal conception, so why get too fussed with the non-idealities? Of course, the real driver behind this idea is laziness. The fact is that it is just easier only to model ideal situations.
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Re: Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

Post by ari ellis » Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:29 am

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:29 pm
Hey keyofnight, I see that you have quoted from Wittgenstein's Tractatus in your signature. You might find it amusing to know that I also quoted from that work in the summary chapter of my PhD thesis, "Predicting the Kinetics of Heap Leaching with Unsteady State Models." In my case, it was passage 5.551: "Our fundamental principle is that every question which can be decided at all by logic (mathematics) can be decided without further trouble. (And if we get into a situation where we need to answer such a problem by looking at the world, this shows that we are on a fundamentally wrong track.)" I suggesting replacing the word "logic" with the word "mathematics" and this, more or less, became the guiding principle for my academic career (at least at first).

Then, a bit later, I had a classics professor try to translate my motto into Latin. The motto was "Model the Ideal and make Reality conform." The Latin translation was "Perfecta fingamus serviat natura" which isn't an exact translation, or even a very good one, but this was in my email signature for about 25 years. In any case, the idea behind my motto is that there isn't much justification in trying to model non-ideal situations (such as poorly constructed heap leaching processes), especially since doing so is incredibly hard and the payoff is typically pretty small. It is far better to conceive of the ideal situation (e.g., the perfect heap leach) and then model that, and use this ideal model to guide engineering of the near-ideal reality. It's the same idea behind assuming ideal opamps when doing circuit design and analysis. We know they are not actually ideal, but 98% of what is important about them is captured in that ideal conception, so why get too fussed with the non-idealities? Of course, the real driver behind this idea is laziness. The fact is that it is just easier only to model ideal situations.
Hey Doc, you absolutely sure you weren't meant to be a physicist all along? :hihi: :wink:

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Re: Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

Post by Dr. Sketch-n-Etch » Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:02 pm

ari ellis wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:29 am
Hey Doc, you absolutely sure you weren't meant to be a physicist all along? :hihi: :wink:
I hate science. That's why I'm an engineer. I could hardly stand the science classes I had to take. Designing and building stuff and doing mathematical modeling, that's where it's at for me. (Oh, and making money -- that's also pretty damn important.)
this night wounds time,

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Re: Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

Post by Bernie Hutchins » Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:18 pm

Exponential VCO FM is a solved problem:

Hutchins, B. “The Frequency Modulation Spectrum of an Exponential Voltage-Controlled Oscillator,” J. Audio Eng. Soc., Vol 23, No. 3, pp 200-206, April 1975
http://electronotes.netfirms.com/AES3.PDF

I believe this was the first paper on the subject - - - also the last !

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Re: Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

Post by keyofnight » Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:33 pm

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:29 pm
Hey keyofnight, I see that you have quoted from Wittgenstein's Tractatus in your signature. You might find it amusing to know that I also quoted from that work in the summary chapter of my PhD thesis, "Predicting the Kinetics of Heap Leaching with Unsteady State Models." In my case, it was passage 5.551: "Our fundamental principle is that every question which can be decided at all by logic (mathematics) can be decided without further trouble. (And if we get into a situation where we need to answer such a problem by looking at the world, this shows that we are on a fundamentally wrong track.)" I suggesting replacing the word "logic" with the word "mathematics" and this, more or less, became the guiding principle for my academic career (at least at first).

Then, a bit later, I had a classics professor try to translate my motto into Latin. The motto was "Model the Ideal and make Reality conform." The Latin translation was "Perfecta fingamus serviat natura" which isn't an exact translation, or even a very good one, but this was in my email signature for about 25 years. In any case, the idea behind my motto is that there isn't much justification in trying to model non-ideal situations (such as poorly constructed heap leaching processes), especially since doing so is incredibly hard and the payoff is typically pretty small. It is far better to conceive of the ideal situation (e.g., the perfect heap leach) and then model that, and use this ideal model to guide engineering of the near-ideal reality. It's the same idea behind assuming ideal opamps when doing circuit design and analysis. We know they are not actually ideal, but 98% of what is important about them is captured in that ideal conception, so why get too fussed with the non-idealities? Of course, the real driver behind this idea is laziness. The fact is that it is just easier only to model ideal situations.
I do find that interesting—that Wittgenstein's brand of positivism was the motivation behind your career (for a time, at least). Positivism is seductive, isn't it? By modeling the ideal, we can 'bracket' all of the inconveniences of the world and it's phenomena. Some might even believe that ideal models get us to the noumenal. I'm sure you can tell that I'm skeptical of any of these suggestions. The truth is, the quote in my signature is misleading. How I read words like "question" and "answer" in the Tractatus will forever be colored by my reading of Wittgenstein's later works: the Philosophical Investigations, his Blue and Brown Books, and (oddly enough) his lectures and conversations on aesthetics. In these texts, Wittgenstein realizes that language performs functions that go beyond forming correspondences between words and objects, models and reality, even in situations where positivists are convinced that is the case. Language, when we look ("…don’t think, but look!"—as per §66 of PI), is more of social mechanism through which we know we understand our interlocutors (or know that we've been understood by them) when we act together accordingly. Given this, sure… models are very useful. They give us a prop against which we can get get clear about our intuitions, they give us a (clear?) path to testing those intuitions, and we pit competing models against one another so that we can chose the most useful ones. But I think they can also distract us from the messy details and realities of the natural world—details we need to consider.

For better or worse, however, I did not quote Wittgenstein in my Ph.D. thesis. Instead, I took on a series of messy bioethics problems related to the use of medical neurotechnologies—in particular, implanted devices that can record and stimulate the brain therapeutically. My work is much more influenced by feminist epistemology, which often thrives in the messy details. That means I do interviews with device users, talk with researchers through their ethical concerns, and come up with tactics for people to prevent harm/wrongdoing.

Anyway, it's nice to talk shop. :party:
Last edited by keyofnight on Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
"…an answer which cannot be expressed the question too cannot be expressed. […] If a question can be put at all, then it can also be answered." Wittgenstein, Tractatus, §6.52

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Re: Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

Post by daphnid » Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:02 am

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:02 pm
ari ellis wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:29 am
Hey Doc, you absolutely sure you weren't meant to be a physicist all along? :hihi: :wink:
I hate science. That's why I'm an engineer. I could hardly stand the science classes I had to take. Designing and building stuff and doing mathematical modeling, that's where it's at for me. (Oh, and making money -- that's also pretty damn important.)
That's funny, I started off in engineering and switched to science. I hated my engineering classes because when I'd ask deeper, more philosophical questions about physics e.g., I'd get, "You don't need to know that" from my professors, while my science professors lit up at those questions. Any knowledge not directly relevant to the engineering problem was deemed useless. My education experience improved dramatically after the switch.

Also my engineering classes were filled with angry white male nerd virgins who played MMOs all day and I realized I didn't want to work with those people for the rest of my life.

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Re: Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

Post by Dr. Sketch-n-Etch » Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:02 pm

daphnid wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:02 am
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:02 pm
ari ellis wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:29 am
Hey Doc, you absolutely sure you weren't meant to be a physicist all along? :hihi: :wink:
I hate science. That's why I'm an engineer. I could hardly stand the science classes I had to take. Designing and building stuff and doing mathematical modeling, that's where it's at for me. (Oh, and making money -- that's also pretty damn important.)
That's funny, I started off in engineering and switched to science. I hated my engineering classes because when I'd ask deeper, more philosophical questions about physics e.g., I'd get, "You don't need to know that" from my professors, while my science professors lit up at those questions. Any knowledge not directly relevant to the engineering problem was deemed useless. My education experience improved dramatically after the switch.

Also my engineering classes were filled with angry white male nerd virgins who played MMOs all day and I realized I didn't want to work with those people for the rest of my life.
Yes, engineering profs hate students who want to delve more deeply into the science in class. It interrupts the flow of the class and wastes everyones time, and most often is just a way of saying "Hey, look at me! Look how smart I am!" Pick up one of the infinite number of books on the topic and read it to your heart's content on your own time -- that's my advice to such students.
this night wounds time,

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Re: Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

Post by daphnid » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:51 pm

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:02 pm
daphnid wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:02 am
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:02 pm
ari ellis wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:29 am
Hey Doc, you absolutely sure you weren't meant to be a physicist all along? :hihi: :wink:
I hate science. That's why I'm an engineer. I could hardly stand the science classes I had to take. Designing and building stuff and doing mathematical modeling, that's where it's at for me. (Oh, and making money -- that's also pretty damn important.)
That's funny, I started off in engineering and switched to science. I hated my engineering classes because when I'd ask deeper, more philosophical questions about physics e.g., I'd get, "You don't need to know that" from my professors, while my science professors lit up at those questions. Any knowledge not directly relevant to the engineering problem was deemed useless. My education experience improved dramatically after the switch.

Also my engineering classes were filled with angry white male nerd virgins who played MMOs all day and I realized I didn't want to work with those people for the rest of my life.
Yes, engineering profs hate students who want to delve more deeply into the science in class. It interrupts the flow of the class and wastes everyones time, and most often is just a way of saying "Hey, look at me! Look how smart I am!" Pick up one of the infinite number of books on the topic and read it to your heart's content on your own time -- that's my advice to such students.
It's this obsession with efficiency that also turned me off from the curriculum. I enjoy class discussion and conversing with professors and classmates and I felt my science classes made room for that, so it wasn't wasting people's time, it was built into the program. It was much more fruitful and enjoyable than just reading a book. I guess there's a reason why science departments are typically a part of the humanities college (arts and sciences) and engineering is it's own college and treated more like a trade school.

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Re: Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

Post by daphnid » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:27 pm

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:02 pm
and most often is just a way of saying "Hey, look at me! Look how smart I am!"
Was reluctant to say this initially but fuck it, the nerd war in this thread is much more guilty of this than any class discussion I've ever been involved with. It's not like there's a complete absence of angry nerd olympics in science academia, but it's less common and less subjective, especially compared to creative tools engineering. With science there's really only one truth at the end of the day, and everyone is trying to get to the same place, understanding nature. There's a bunch of pointless provinciality in the sciences, and materials and methods can be debated til kingdom come, which is basically what's happening here, but the whole "No! My way is right" personal ego mentality is much more pervasive in engineering from my experience.

Obviously engineering is an invaluable and broad domain, and essential to all our lives. I found it frustrating in a university setting, mostly because of a lack of diversity and open mindedness, but I'm not about to write it off or hate it. Hating science just, sounds dumb tbh. But not surprising based on the type of people I regularly encountered in my engineering department, which is largely why I switched majors.

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Re: Intellijel Rubicon 2 vs SSF Zero Point Oscillator

Post by keyofnight » Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:00 am

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:02 pm
Yes, engineering profs hate students who want to delve more deeply into the science in class. It interrupts the flow of the class and wastes everyones time, and most often is just a way of saying "Hey, look at me! Look how smart I am!" Pick up one of the infinite number of books on the topic and read it to your heart's content on your own time -- that's my advice to such students.
Hm. How cynical. :/
"…an answer which cannot be expressed the question too cannot be expressed. […] If a question can be put at all, then it can also be answered." Wittgenstein, Tractatus, §6.52

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