Frap Tools Brenso

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Re: Frap Tools Brenso

Post by closedLoop » Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:21 pm

Is it just me, or do the knobs on the Brenso look like they'd be really satisfying to twist?

The few Frap Tools modules I've put my mitts on have proved that Frap Tools have really good taste in components.

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Re: Frap Tools Brenso

Post by architexture » Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:36 pm

> Frap Tools have really good taste in components.

Absolutely, I have a Sapel and a Falistri, they are very satisfying to wiggle

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Re: Frap Tools Brenso

Post by studioutopia » Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:39 pm

closedLoop wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:21 pm
Is it just me, or do the knobs on the Brenso look like they'd be really satisfying to twist?

The few Frap Tools modules I've put my mitts on have proved that Frap Tools have really good taste in components.
I am sure the big tuning knobs are like CGM volume knobs, and the smaller ones are like Falistri/Sapel.
those minimal knurled knobs... so good!

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Re: Frap Tools Brenso

Post by Hovercraft » Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:06 pm

Frap Tools modules are beautifully made, and technically top level instruments. Hadn't planned it, but I'm building a Frap Tools system. Brenso sounds beautiful--as expected. I've been studying the manual and signal flow--and the design is brilliant. There's a lot of molecular-level control over the waveforms, and the circuits are more accessible than on any other complex osc--except Cs-L. The control layout is logical, and there are no shift functions to tax my dwindling number of brain cells. Still keeping Cs-L, though--Brenso will complement it nicely and give me four legit analog oscs.

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Re: Frap Tools Brenso

Post by FatKingTubby » Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:14 pm

synonymist wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:29 am
Although the gaggle of tiny pots is not my favorite...

...The one detail I don't agree with is the tiny slider switches. Those always feel fragile to me, and they are not a good tactile interface. Nice, solid toggle switches are much better.
Agreed, they use a lot of those tiny shaft pots and that is really my one and only gripe with their modules. It's pretty easy for me to get over it though...and definitely hasn't stopped from getting almost every module they make. I will say this too: compared to other makers who use those same pots a lot, the ones on Frap Tools' modules definitely feel more sturdy and have less of a wobble to them. It's especially annoying when they don't feel stable and seem loose, but that's never the case with them. The bigger knobs though are truly a delight to turn and are super high quality. I can't wait to see what the even bigger knobs on the Brenso feel like.

I see what you mean about the tiny slider switches too. The three position ones on Falistri can be a bit tricky when you're trying to land on the middle setting. I think replacing them with toggle switches might clash with their aesthetic (though that's the last consideration I make when module shopping) but I'd be interested to see how they felt/worked/looked in comparison.

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Re: Frap Tools Brenso

Post by Whatisvalis » Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:28 pm

Just got a shipping notice from PC.

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Re: Frap Tools Brenso

Post by Hovercraft » Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:42 pm

Whatisvalis wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:28 pm
Just got a shipping notice from PC.
:mygod:

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nios
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Re: Frap Tools Brenso

Post by nios » Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:11 pm

The tiny pots on Frap modules are more of just a necessity I think in order to fit their massive functionality into reasonably-sized modules. Not even "small" modules, just "not too big" - Brenso without the tall pots looks tough to do, would require a redo of the layout and might broach 40+ hp. I think you'd have more buyers wanting it in the average complex osc size than you would for the jumbo one that would say, take up a quarter of a 6U case by itself. As it is it looks really elegantly laid out visually with those pots, they just inherently will feel wiggly because they're attached right to the PCB. I can recall only one manufacturer who makes 9mm trim pots feel incredibly solid and stiff, and that's ACL (also absolutely excellent, like Frap). If anyone was interested in whatever secret sauce they deployed, maybe study those, because they did it, they fixed what seemed unfixable.

In Brenso's case this appears to be one of the most-functional complex oscs in Euro and by extension maybe ever built; Cs-L with its internal routing may or may not have more (I'd have to check) but Frap has no assorted button combos to deal with and I prefer that - having everything independent and generally everything CV-able to boot in the options also goes beyond what you can generally do on Cs-L, so while it may not be as numerically complex, it's close but also has CV over just about everything which is a huge net win.

I mean just look at them - on a DPO you have what, 9ish things you can CV directly. Cs-L is also about 9 but you can internally route/assign a bunch of stuff so ???. Mindphaser looks to be about 13. Brenso is what, at least 17 CV points? Maybe up to 20, need to read the manual. It's an absolute monster either way. Ship it faster.

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Re: Frap Tools Brenso

Post by synonymist » Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:27 pm

FatKingTubby wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:14 pm
synonymist wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:29 am
Although the gaggle of tiny pots is not my favorite...

...The one detail I don't agree with is the tiny slider switches. Those always feel fragile to me, and they are not a good tactile interface. Nice, solid toggle switches are much better.
Agreed, they use a lot of those tiny shaft pots and that is really my one and only gripe with their modules. It's pretty easy for me to get over it though...and definitely hasn't stopped from getting almost every module they make. I will say this too: compared to other makers who use those same pots a lot, the ones on Frap Tools' modules definitely feel more sturdy and have less of a wobble to them. It's especially annoying when they don't feel stable and seem loose, but that's never the case with them. The bigger knobs though are truly a delight to turn and are super high quality. I can't wait to see what the even bigger knobs on the Brenso feel like.

I see what you mean about the tiny slider switches too. The three position ones on Falistri can be a bit tricky when you're trying to land on the middle setting. I think replacing them with toggle switches might clash with their aesthetic (though that's the last consideration I make when module shopping) but I'd be interested to see how they felt/worked/looked in comparison.
Hello. Probably, if for no other reason, the Frap Tools mini shaft pots feel better in use because they source the kind with metal sleeves (jackets? I'm not sure of the correct term).

USTA is the only Frap Tools module I own. Its hardware controls are just buttons of varying sizes and encoder knobs. That plus USTA's use of a subset of the usual Frap Tools UI markings colors, those better for higher visual contrast against the gray panel, combine to make the USTA interface tactile and pretty readable.

But when I study photos of Brenso, seeing those little slider switches makes my teeth hurt.

Just now I tried mocking up the Brenso panel with toggles in place of the slider switches. I stopped after one swap. The design is too tight. Obviously optimized for the overall layout and workflow, then for the big knobs and the markings around them, the space that was left for most of the state controls related to the larger controls is only enough to fit the tiny sliders.

Nonetheless, here is my mockup. It shows one toggle on the left side, with that control's markings moved to accommodate the larger width. I assume that this all is moot since Brenso's design is finished. But whereas I would not wait to buy a Brenso made with toggle switches, I hesitate to buy one as it is now, with the sliders:

brenso toggle mockup.jpg
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Re: Frap Tools Brenso

Post by lilskullymane » Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:49 pm

need that brenso, verbos, furthrrrr blind test now...

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Re: Frap Tools Brenso

Post by hawkfuzz » Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:13 pm

Not sure if you've used any Frap Tools but the switch is solid af for me in the Falistri. I was very surprised because I thought it would feel cheap but then I realized why it cost a bit more.
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Whatisvalis
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Re: Frap Tools Brenso

Post by Whatisvalis » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:56 pm

Yea - I have no issues with the switches on Falistri - they feel great.

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Re: Frap Tools Brenso

Post by FatKingTubby » Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:07 pm

nios wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:11 pm
The tiny pots on Frap modules are more of just a necessity I think in order to fit their massive functionality into reasonably-sized modules.
Yeah I definitely understand that reasoning, and I would no doubt take the small shaft knobs with more functionality than bigger knobs on a module that does less.
synonymist wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:27 pm
Just now I tried mocking up the Brenso panel with toggles in place of the slider switches. I stopped after one swap. The design is too tight. Obviously optimized for the overall layout and workflow, then for the big knobs and the markings around them, the space that was left for most of the state controls related to the larger controls is only enough to fit the tiny sliders.

Nonetheless, here is my mockup. It shows one toggle on the left side, with that control's markings moved to accommodate the larger width. I assume that this all is moot since Brenso's design is finished. But whereas I would not wait to buy a Brenso made with toggle switches, I hesitate to buy one as it is now, with the sliders:
Yeah the toggle switches certainly do seem odd and out of place. Appreciate the mock-up though! The switches aren't close to any kind of deal breaker for me. They are definitely sturdy and well-made. They just require a bit of a callous on the tip of your finger ;) I'll definitely be getting one as soon as I make the space in my rack and the cushion in my bank account.

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Re: Frap Tools Brenso

Post by boom blip » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:15 pm

Ack so hard for me to pick between this and the CS-L and the furthurrr, I don't have an analog oscillator at the moment and they are all so tempting, guess Ill wait for some demos.

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Re: Frap Tools Brenso

Post by autopoiesis » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:35 pm

none of those other complex oscillators does tzfm. massive difference in timbral range

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Re: Frap Tools Brenso

Post by studioutopia » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:40 pm

autopoiesis wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:35 pm
none of those other complex oscillators does tzfm. massive difference in timbral range
Furthurrr Generator (with the Strong Zero Core upgrade) and Rubicon2 are TZFM.

I just ordered my Brenso. Now my Cš-L will have a friend.

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Re: Frap Tools Brenso

Post by autopoiesis » Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:26 pm

studioutopia wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:40 pm
autopoiesis wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:35 pm
none of those other complex oscillators does tzfm. massive difference in timbral range
Furthurrr Generator (with the Strong Zero Core upgrade) and Rubicon2 are TZFM.

I just ordered my Brenso. Now my Cš-L will have a friend.
the strong zero option is digital.

rubicon is a single oscillator, not a complex oscillator riffing on the buchla 259 concept.

all are great, but let's get it straight

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Re: Frap Tools Brenso

Post by studioutopia » Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:53 pm

autopoiesis wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:26 pm
studioutopia wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:40 pm
autopoiesis wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:35 pm
none of those other complex oscillators does tzfm. massive difference in timbral range
Furthurrr Generator (with the Strong Zero Core upgrade) and Rubicon2 are TZFM.

I just ordered my Brenso. Now my Cš-L will have a friend.
the strong zero option is digital.

rubicon is a single oscillator, not a complex oscillator riffing on the buchla 259 concept.

all are great, but let's get it straight
That's exactly why I don't have any of those. ;-)
If we are getting it straight - the 259 is not specifically a complex oscillator - it is a "Complex Waveform Generator". ;-)
The Intellijel Rubicon2/DixieII+ combo ticks all the Complex Oscillator boxes - TZFM, Symmetry and Wavefolder(warp), and mated with Dixie - it forms a complex oscillator by definition.
I was tempted to get it, but I just couldn't pull the trigger.
I also was very close to getting Hertz Donut MkIII - which really takes "complex oscillator" to the next level... but soooo digital.
I do have Piston Honda MkIII - which is so close on so many levels to the Buchla 259e Twisted Waveform Generator.
But it doesn't have that same magic.
As far as 259-inspired modules - you really only have Furthurrr, DPO, Verbos, Cš-L, and now... Brenso.
And Brenso definitely ticks a few more boxes.

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Re: Frap Tools Brenso

Post by autopoiesis » Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:48 pm

granted, my tone was a bit off. didn't mean to sound like a prick. it just sounded like a non-sequitur in response to someone saying it's hard to choose between CS-L vs. Furthrrrr Generator vs. Brenso, 3 different 'complex dual oscillator modules' in the tradition of the 259.

all I mean is that apart from Brenso there's no 259-inspired complex dual oscillator module that does tzfm in a fully analog signal path. pulling that feature set together with multiple modules is of course an option but that's a whole other discussion that's been had in many threads here. the magic with the 259-esque package is in the workflow and the normalizations that make it really fluid to shift between subpatches, and I'm really excited to see that finally done with TZFM :)

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Re: Frap Tools Brenso

Post by studioutopia » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:26 am

autopoiesis wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:48 pm
granted, my tone was a bit off. didn't mean to sound like a prick. it just sounded like a non-sequitur in response to someone saying it's hard to choose between CS-L vs. Furthrrrr Generator vs. Brenso, 3 different 'complex dual oscillator modules' in the tradition of the 259.

all I mean is that apart from Brenso there's no 259-inspired complex dual oscillator module that does tzfm in a fully analog signal path. pulling that feature set together with multiple modules is of course an option but that's a whole other discussion that's been had in many threads here. the magic with the 259-esque package is in the workflow and the normalizations that make it really fluid to shift between subpatches, and I'm really excited to see that finally done with TZFM :)
Bahhhh! It's all good!!! I was just having fun too.
I totally agree with you. And you are totally correct - this is a unique package - and is quite a step beyond it's peers.
I think the workflow was what turned me off of the Rubicon package - it just requires too much patching.
I've had a long time to really dig into the Cš-L, and there is a lot there for modulation options without patching.
With this pandemic - I've been really going deep into my modular - so much that my anticipation for Brenso has been driving me nuts. I was actually worried that Simone and his team would not be able to deliver considering how things have been since they demonstrated at NAMM.
Massive congratulations to Frap Tools for pulling this off and shipping for June 18th!
In 2020, NO LESS!
I've had Simone's new demo on loop this evening - just amazing.
Anyone notice the funky yellow and green side panels on his Frap Plus case?
What I'm really excited about is that all the normalizations can be broken and used by an external source.
If you have not looked at Frap's Manual One - go read the Brenso section. One of the best manuals I've ever seen.
...Now I'm going to be sitting by my front door until it arrives. Probably wishful thinking - the last modules I bought took an extra month to arrive because Canada Post is a disaster right now.

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Re: Frap Tools Brenso

Post by Polyterative » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:32 am

Brenso is the DPO I wanted forever
Rack / Music / Instagram / Module demos
► Show Spoiler

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Re: Frap Tools Brenso

Post by damase » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:51 am

very impressive demo. i think anyone who has done tzfm can see the huge advantage of having the two matching oscillators with all the controls connected like this.

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Re: Frap Tools Brenso

Post by autopoiesis » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:57 am

after reading the manual, I'm even more convinced that this is directly riffing on the DPO as much as it is on the original 259 concept.

both DPO and Brenso have:
- an LED representing acoustic beats between the two oscillators
- a 'Follow'/integrator circuit with CV over the integration speed, used for normalizing pitch CV from one oscillator to the other
- a subtle phase locking option between the two oscillators offered in addition to more standard sync
- separate FM modulation buses per oscillator that allow mixing of linear and exponential FM
- in the timbre section, crossfading of different waveshapes before feeding the wavefolder. the square shaper also sounds like it produces waveform flipping gymnastics similar to modulating symmetry of the DPO's spike wave.
- a 'strike'/'ping' circuit for the wavefolder's input amplitude
- a VCable modulation bus for the timbre section that has the modulation oscillator's sine wave normalled to it

(and which other complex oscillators that riff on the 259 include more than a couple of these newer features?)

but then they depart with the frequency locking, flip sync, TZFM, PWM, AM/RM, adjustable decay of the strike circuit, and choice of components (especially knobs).

this is undeniably a retort to the DPO, and for good reason.

I *think* I really like what the vactrols used in my DPO's FM and modulation busses' gain paths do to the resulting sound, and I really love the waveshaping and wavefolder in my DPO. but I've been augmenting it with an FM Aid to get TZFM (PM, really) going with it, and I could definitely see myself paring down to a Brenso.

I do wish for a silver panel option though.

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Re: Frap Tools Brenso

Post by boom blip » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:38 am

[/quote]
What I'm really excited about is that all the normalizations can be broken and used by an external source.
[/quote]

Wait can the wave shaping on the right side process external audio?

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Re: Frap Tools Brenso

Post by hawkfuzz » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:58 am

studioutopia wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:26 am
What I'm really excited about is that all the normalizations can be broken and used by an external source.
Isn't this common for all complex oscillators and normalizations?
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