Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

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synonymist
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Re: Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

Post by synonymist » Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:32 am

lmixl wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:23 am
In the manual there is an explanation how to calibrate it by sending notes to it, but I couldn’t do it. I’ll wait for a video tutorial
FYI, that is not for calibration, but for recording a series of pitches to define a scale. That feature in ENOSC is called "Learn".

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Re: Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

Post by lmixl » Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:38 am

Is that tuning? Play a C2 note and C4 following instructions

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Re: Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

Post by synonymist » Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:56 am

synonymist wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:32 am
lmixl wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:23 am
In the manual there is an explanation how to calibrate it by sending notes to it, but I couldn’t do it. I’ll wait for a video tutorial
FYI, that is not for calibration, but for recording a series of pitches to define a scale. That feature in ENOSC is called "Learn".
lmixl wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:38 am
Is that tuning? Play a C2 note and C4 following instructions
No, it is not. Did you review the Ensemble Oscillator user manual at all? :)

For an overview of Learn Mode, see page 5 in the manual. For tutorials on Learn Mode, see pages 9 and 10.

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Re: Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

Post by lmixl » Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:00 pm

Yes,Calibrating 1V/oct jacks pg.19

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Re: Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

Post by synonymist » Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:12 pm

lmixl wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:00 pm
Yes,Calibrating 1V/oct jacks pg.19
Okay, well then I'm sure you will figure out all of it eventually.

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Re: Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

Post by hawkfuzz » Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:42 pm

Are you having tuning issues? Which step isn't working?

Did you email 4ms?
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Re: Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

Post by half.cto » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:24 am

All good with tuning, i didn’t notice that scale switch wasn’t on 12TET.

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Re: Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

Post by srogers » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:03 am

Fastus wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:28 pm
Thought I'd contribute something for anybody curious to hear more from this amazing oscillator. BTW it does well with a little low-pass filtering
Some really beautiful sounds in here, thanks for sharing.

EnsOsc has quickly become one of my favorite modules, it’s one of those that almost feels like I’m cheating when I’m using it.

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Re: Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

Post by AbundantChoice » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:35 pm

srogers wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:03 am
EnsOsc has quickly become one of my favorite modules, it’s one of those that almost feels like I’m cheating when I’m using it.
Yeah, it's so easy to make beautiful evolving pads with so little effort, or interesting evolving drones, it does feel like cheating sometimes. Just add a chaos module with multiple outputs like Triple Sloths or a reined-in Hypster and just let it do it's thing. I also love how it can go from "that's a church organ... that is totally a church organ" to "this is the sounds that a starship engine would make from a world where melodic frequencies are a power source" to "something so aggresive noisy yet 'tuned' that I tried to put it into a wavefolder and the folder just lit itself on fire and jumped out the window."

I'm currently struggling a bit with wrangling it into a "lead" voice role; it's probably more of a failing of me than the module though. Obviously it's perfect for evolving pads and drones, and I've had some success using it as a "counterpoint" voice (since it's so 'chordal' with all that harmonic content it's easy to have it be in conversation with your lead and still sound melodic while still "evolving' the sound by CVing a bunch of different settings), but I haven't quite figured out how to play it's strengths as a lead voice versus getting all the settings (warp, twist, FM, etc) to a point I like and then just using it as a "normal" voice with pretty much a V/OCT going into Pitch and maybe some sort of rhythmic modulation into Root but not really touching anything else. When i'm using it as a "normal" osc that way and not really modulating or manipulating anything else it really feels like i'm 100% not playing to the strengths of the unit.

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Re: Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

Post by razzkazz » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:04 am

Many have commented here on the module sounds super wide. I ran the examples I came across on YT through a correlation meter to check the phase, and on most examples the meter registers around 0, as in right on the border of going out of phase, with many examples going into the minus. Summing to mono results in a drastic change to the sound. Some might not care about phase compatibility, but I do. This is a deal breaker for me, anyone have any thoughts on this?

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Re: Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

Post by hawkfuzz » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:49 am

What's the issue?
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Re: Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

Post by razzkazz » Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:00 am

If you use the stereo out, panned hard left and right, when summed to mono, lots of the content disappears. It's rare that you would do that, but coming from a sound engineering/mastering background I always aim to keep mixes in phase. Pressing to vinyl or not can be a consideration, but mono playback systems are another. If you were on stage, monitoring in mono, your perspective of the sound and level coming from output of this module would be different from the audience. Probably obsessing on this, but I am currently mastering an album with content with MI Rings stereo output. It does a similar thing, certain settings will produce out of phase results, which made me think does this module do a similar thing, or depending on your perspective, issue. Maybe like Rings (and Plaits) it's not meant to be a true stereo out, just an optional feature with certain settings, when in-phase audio is not a requirement. Outputs are "Out A" and "Out B" not L and R.

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Re: Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

Post by hawkfuzz » Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:32 am

I don't notice any phase cancellation and the stereo sound is beautiful. I don't know why you'd go from stereo to mono if you're having issues that would be solved by just using one output...

I'm very aware of phase cancellation and how it works. It's best to email 4ms with your concerns. They are warranted indeed but, I think you'd be fine because the stereo outputs aren't putting the same sounds out. Check the manual.
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Re: Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

Post by Joey P. » Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:38 am

razzkazz wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:00 am
If you use the stereo out, panned hard left and right, when summed to mono, lots of the content disappears.
Not my experience at all. Panning is per oscillator. You have a choice of 3 panning modes....each subsequent oscillator, panning lower/higher, or panning root/upper.

Messing with different modes and settings while switching the MONO switch on my mixer never resulted in weaker sound. Always louder (my mixer mono switch doesn't do pan law compensation). Slightly more presence in mono. Nothing out of the ordinary or unexpected.

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Re: Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

Post by razzkazz » Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:02 pm

Maybe this video (link below) will explain what I am hearing. The audio is from one of Mattias Puech's examples on YT. I am using 2 imager plugins, the top puts the audio into mono, the bottom one to about 50%. You will hear and see (in the phase meter) big changes when stereo width is adjusted.

Here's a scenario I envision. I record a performance/mix in stereo (multitrack would be better but not an option in this example). Mix sounds great but the ENSOSC part forces me to adjust the stereo width to avoid phase cancellation issues for my vinyl release. So the mix suffers due one component.


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Re: Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

Post by mqtthiqs » Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:17 pm

razzkazz wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:04 am
Many have commented here on the module sounds super wide. I ran the examples I came across on YT through a correlation meter to check the phase, and on most examples the meter registers around 0, as in right on the border of going out of phase, with many examples going into the minus. Summing to mono results in a drastic change to the sound. Some might not care about phase compatibility, but I do. This is a deal breaker for me, anyone have any thoughts on this?
Hi.
Your concern is valid but is (almost) a non-issue in the Enosc case, since its two output are completely uncorrelated, i.e. neither in nor out of phase, since they are each the sum of completely free-running oscillators. That’s why they sound wide without being out of phase, and mono mixdown should cause no problem. That’s completely different from Ring, which stereo output are two combinations of moveable taps from the internal delay lines (the Position knob).

That said, this quick answer is not considering two things. 1/ if you put all oscillators at the same exact frequency they will have arbitrary phase relationships (whichever they had when you put them there), so cancelling could theoretically happen, when they are summed at one output or when you do your mono mixdown. But in this case just quickly turn Detune up until the phase relationship changes to your liking.
2/ Cross FM will indeed introduce correlation between the oscillators, and if you don’t choose your FM algorithm and stereo mode wisely it could put two opposite oscs out of phase. That’s harder to predict (for me right now; there might be a clever mathematical analysis of this phenomenon) but in my experience nothing that can’t be tweaked.

Now putting my musician’s hat: I’ve assisted the mixing and mastering of my last 3 albums, which heavily used various versions of the EnOsc. No particular problems arose from its sounds (empiricism at its worst and probably worth nothing, but oh well, hope it helps nonetheless ;)

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Re: Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

Post by razzkazz » Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:58 pm

Hi, thanks for the detailed answer. That all makes sense, though i'm still a bit cautious about allowing mixes to drift into the minus on a phase meter. Maybe that's just me, as I know many other aren't ;)

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Re: Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

Post by pablowdadon » Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:59 pm

razzkazz wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:02 pm
Maybe this video (link below) will explain what I am hearing. The audio is from one of Mattias Puech's examples on YT. I am using 2 imager plugins, the top puts the audio into mono, the bottom one to about 50%. You will hear and see (in the phase meter) big changes when stereo width is adjusted.

Here's a scenario I envision. I record a performance/mix in stereo (multitrack would be better but not an option in this example). Mix sounds great but the ENSOSC part forces me to adjust the stereo width to avoid phase cancellation issues for my vinyl release. So the mix suffers due one component.

This is the most savage thing i’ve ever seen: ripping youtube to check how an oscillator phase would match :mrgreen:

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Re: Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

Post by razzkazz » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:09 am

Sorry if any offense was caused ;) I was actually monitoring phase in real-time while watching some videos, but then I was asked to explain a statement I made, this was the quickest solution. Apologies :waah:

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Re: Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

Post by mqtthiqs » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:50 am

razzkazz wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:09 am
Sorry if any offense was caused ;) I was actually monitoring phase in real-time while watching some videos, but then I was asked to explain a statement I made, this was the quickest solution. Apologies :waah:
No worries at all, it's an interesting discussion! Actually I don't see anything unexpected in the correlation/phase meter readings in your video: when all plugins are bypassed it oscillates around zero, which is what it should do. Sometimes the oscillators will be out of phase, sometimes in phase, but on average at zero correlation, just like a live ensemble. This is of course different than monitoring a full mix, where most instruments wouldn't be panned hard and so correlation would be globally positive!

I just confirmed all this here on Audition's phase meter; and (regarding my earlier comment) I couldn't notice any negative effect of Cross FM on correlation, so scratch that.

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Re: Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

Post by pablowdadon » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:59 am

razzkazz wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:09 am
Sorry if any offense was caused ;) I was actually monitoring phase in real-time while watching some videos, but then I was asked to explain a statement I made, this was the quickest solution. Apologies :waah:
To be clear: as Matthias said there’s nothing wrong with the phase metering, we’re talking about electronic instruments in the end, not exactly like badly recording a guitar with a pair of x/y mics!
To be super clear: this thing of vinyl support limits sometimes sounds silly, do you really think when it’s mastering time a good engineer wouldn’t fix the problem? Just that, no offense!!!

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Re: Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

Post by euxine » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:14 am

pablowdadon wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:59 am
To be super clear: this thing of vinyl support limits sometimes sounds silly, do you really think when it’s mastering time a good engineer wouldn’t fix the problem? Just that, no offense!!!
Funny this should come up; I'm working with a client that has exactly this issue with vinyl cutting. A master was sent back from cutting for occasional, small negative dips in correlation in the mids. We were surprised but we won't debate the expertise of a cutting engineer.

The answer to this question is no: the mastering engineer cannot correct phase in a single part in a mixdown without affecting all the other parts (and thus the overall mix).

What about mix? If vinyl pressing is a key goal for the track, a part with sustained correlation between -0.25 and 0.25 might be sent back for the artist to correct. You can try phase rotation, but that might change the timbre in a way that is not desirable. You can sum it to mono, but then it invariably sounds worse. It might depend on cumulative correlation on the stereo bus.

If you don't care about vinyl, no problem! But it's not really accurate to say that it should be fixed in the mix as it should be fixed in production, before the mix, if you want the sounds to keep their character. :tu:

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Re: Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

Post by pablowdadon » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:16 am

euxine wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:14 am
pablowdadon wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:59 am
To be super clear: this thing of vinyl support limits sometimes sounds silly, do you really think when it’s mastering time a good engineer wouldn’t fix the problem? Just that, no offense!!!
Funny this should come up; I'm working with a client that has exactly this issue with vinyl cutting. A master was sent back from cutting for occasional, small negative dips in correlation in the mids. We were surprised but we won't debate the expertise of a cutting engineer.

The answer to this question is no: the mastering engineer cannot correct phase in a single part in a mixdown without affecting all the other parts (and thus the overall mix).

What about mix? If vinyl pressing is a key goal for the track, a part with sustained correlation between -0.25 and 0.25 might be sent back for the artist to correct. You can try phase rotation, but that might change the timbre in a way that is not desirable. You can sum it to mono, but then it invariably sounds worse. It might depend on cumulative correlation on the stereo bus.

If you don't care about vinyl, no problem! But it's not really accurate to say that it should be fixed in the mix as it should be fixed in production, before the mix, if you want the sounds to keep their character. :tu:
The case you explained sounds like an ambient record scenario? Sustained mid correlation? Reverbs or delay?
I wasn’t generalising but a statement like the one i was answering back, to me was excessive.
I get the perfectionist side that a lot of folks have, but I don’t understand purchasing 2020 music instruments and then press records on a format that has infamous playback limits. And i do love vinyls.

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Re: Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

Post by wajobu » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:35 am

I'm really enjoying the Ensemble Oscillator (and I'm normally an all-analog oscillator type). This video is an example of all knob-twisting, no sequencing. I'm not using a quantizer, but am running a Boss TU-3S tuner first in my effects loop, so I can get pretty close to expected notes as I'm sweeping the knobs on the EO. This was recorded in stereo, all played live, no overdubs.
On a reach and planing

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Re: Ensemble Oscillator from Matthias Puech & 4ms Company

Post by wiperactive » Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:06 pm

wajobu. That's very nice indeed!

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