Behringer Roland System 100M clone

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Richjk7
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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by Richjk7 » Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:36 am

A few modules are on Sweetwater for preorder now.

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100 clone

Post by KSS » Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:41 am

zoogoo wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:10 am
mgscheue wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:59 am
There already are some pretty inexpensive module and they co-exist with higher-end stuff. Not exactly revolutionary.
like what?! i really want more stuff but i kinda need tio skimp some of my necessary gear
Ladik modules are inexpensive, and well regarded.
Dreadbox new palette 'colors' modules also.
Doepfer. Too often disregarded.
Explore Synth DIY. Won't save you money at first. That's a mistake to believe, unless you're already well-stocked with tools and skills. But over time it most certainly can.

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dcbb
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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by dcbb » Wed May 13, 2020 3:54 am

Wow, this thread is silent now that the hate controversy has gone to a dedicated one...

If the modules sound good, and if they are not too painful to tune and keep their tuning, one could make a solid old-school paraphonic 4 voice stereo synth with six of them. Given what one reads about the Model D, tuning stability could be an issue.

Having two of everything on many of the modules and multiple outputs everywhere really seems to beg for this. Also, the mixing CV inputs are nice for overlaying LFO and envelope without additional effort.

Image

This would suffice for an old-school layout with one env for filter and one for VCAs. A fancier stereo filter could, probably should, be added. Spread effects on filter and VCA could probably be achieved by scaling the incoming CVs slightly differently. Given the small knobs it's probably difficult to not scale the differently.

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by slam » Wed May 13, 2020 6:39 am

It is probably silent because AFAIK these are still not available. Not much to talk about.

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werock
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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by werock » Wed May 13, 2020 7:00 am

slam wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 6:39 am
It is probably silent because AFAIK these are still not available. Not much to talk about.
That's not normally a problem in other Behringer threads :hihi:

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by KSS » Wed May 13, 2020 8:37 am

Talk has shifted to the Bonopoly!

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by Muff McMuff » Wed May 13, 2020 8:41 am

Screen Shot 2020-05-13 at 20.34.22.png
Only announced 2 years ago (16.04.18 on this image) but seems much longer. Will they be available for 6 months and then disappear, discontinued or will it be the start of regular modules for years to come? Eurorack is popular on this forum but not really in the wider musical world. The market might be too small?

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100 clone

Post by wavejockey » Thu May 14, 2020 7:41 am

ckwjr wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:17 pm
quad gate, 6 channels of buffered multiples for less than $100. I'd buy that in a heartbeat.
behringer states 4 floating parallel connectors for the multiples

is that the same as buffered multiples?

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synkrotron
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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by synkrotron » Thu May 14, 2020 8:16 am

Hmmm... Not seen this topic before.

Interesting, I guess, but when I look at Thomann there's not a lot of stuff in stock.

Has anyone actually tried any of these modules yet? Not just the 100M ones, I mean any of the Behringer Eurorack stuff.

I will be in the market for some "budget" stuff but I think I would rather stick with Doepfer unless anyone can give these a positive thumb's up.

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by slam » Thu May 14, 2020 8:34 am

synkrotron wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 8:16 am
Hmmm... Not seen this topic before.

Interesting, I guess, but when I look at Thomann there's not a lot of stuff in stock.

Has anyone actually tried any of these modules yet? Not just the 100M ones, I mean any of the Behringer Eurorack stuff.

I will be in the market for some "budget" stuff but I think I would rather stick with Doepfer unless anyone can give these a positive thumb's up.
I don’t think anything has actually gone on sale yet has it?

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smithjohn
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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by smithjohn » Thu May 14, 2020 9:30 am

Seems like the Dual VCA & Dual VCF are in stock at Thomann, along with some of the Moog modular clones.

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by synkrotron » Thu May 14, 2020 9:47 am

slam wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 8:34 am
I don’t think anything has actually gone on sale yet has it?
Yeah, there's stuff there, but not what I'd be interested in, like the 100M oscillator for instance. It says on the site, "on request," what ever that means.

https://www.thomann.de/gb/search.html?g ... pg=1&ls=25

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by slam » Thu May 14, 2020 10:05 am

synkrotron wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 9:47 am
slam wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 8:34 am
I don’t think anything has actually gone on sale yet has it?
Yeah, there's stuff there, but not what I'd be interested in, like the 100M oscillator for instance. It says on the site, "on request," what ever that means.

https://www.thomann.de/gb/search.html?g ... pg=1&ls=25
Oh wow I thought it was still pending. I guess I’ve been looking in the wrong places.

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ishi
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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by ishi » Fri May 15, 2020 6:40 am

For those interested, I made some detail photos of the first two modules I received, 130 and 173:

http://sonectron.nl/?page_id=93

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100 clone

Post by DMR » Fri May 15, 2020 10:35 am

wavejockey wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 7:41 am
ckwjr wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:17 pm
quad gate, 6 channels of buffered multiples for less than $100. I'd buy that in a heartbeat.
behringer states 4 floating parallel connectors for the multiples

is that the same as buffered multiples?
That sounds like a passive (non-buffered) multiple, ie just jacks connected together.

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SyndieBot2000XL
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Re: Behringer Roland System 100 clone

Post by SyndieBot2000XL » Fri May 15, 2020 2:27 pm

DMR wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:35 am
wavejockey wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 7:41 am
ckwjr wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:17 pm
quad gate, 6 channels of buffered multiples for less than $100. I'd buy that in a heartbeat.
behringer states 4 floating parallel connectors for the multiples

is that the same as buffered multiples?
That sounds like a passive (non-buffered) multiple, ie just jacks connected together.
In the pics ishi linked above you can see that they are definitely passive.
It began as a mistake.

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by KSS » Sat May 16, 2020 1:33 am

The exposed traces of the passive mults make a DIY buffered mults option easily possible. The screws and holes even provide a solid mounting.

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by KSS » Sat May 16, 2020 1:40 am

KSS wrote: Thank you again for the new photos. There is some real genius in some of the choices Behringer have made. The offset of two pads in their jacks being a good example. Compared to other 3.5mm jacks -like switchcraft tini-jax and quingpu's PJ301's with non-offset pads, it's a total win. Dual sided loading on SMD is another.

On the other hand, these again show poor soldering of TH parts. But again made much worse by the lack of protection to the exposed bare copper. This is not something a buyer-user can easily correct themselves. And that's truly sad.

Uli Behringer, Please do us -and yourself- a favor and fix this. Your modules are so, so, so close to being really, really good. But this is something you could easily and inexpensively do to really up the quality of your output. If you truly desire synthdom legacy -and care about yur customers, not just your bottom line profits, fix this glaring mistake as soon as possible.
Cross posting from the B55 thread since Behringer does product feedback through AI of forum posts. In that thread this reply was about these modules anyways, so it's valid here for that reason too. I went into more detail about mechanical aspects and quality of the Behringer modules in another post of that thread. Although applying to these also, it was based on the B55 modules.

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Synthbuilder
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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by Synthbuilder » Wed May 27, 2020 6:11 am

I got my 121 Dual VCF module at the weekend. I'm pretty impressed. It looks nice and works well. The soldering is good enough - there were a few places where it was a little untidy but nothing worth worrying about.

One thing that is probably worth mentioning is that if your 1.5mm plugs are on the long side the tip will short against something when inserted and the signal will be lost. This doesn't happen with my higher quality patch leads but if you notice your Behringer modules not working correctly it may be due to this.

The circuit seems to be a clone of the original. However, the original ran from +/-15V and not the Eurorack standard of +/-12V so I guess some things will have had to change. In each filter section the four BA662s have been replaced by two V13700M.

It's worth noting that the output will clip (distort) even before the little red LED comes on if the module is connected to a heavier than normal load. That is, if you connect the output to two or more other modules. I found that the more load you put on the module the more likely that distortion will occur. It is the negative portion of the output signal that is clipping. The effect is sonically interesting but it is a shame that the peak LEDs are not as useful as they should be.

The other thing that I thought could have been improved on is that the module has two identical outputs per filter. This seems to be a missed opportunity as the second output could have been used for another purpose. I modified mine so as to correct for the distortion mentioned above and to provide additional -6dB/octave outputs. Both the standard -24dB/octave, but now buffered and relatively impervious to loading effects, and -6dB/octave outputs are now available from each filter.

Image

It's a bit of a cludge but it works well and sounds great. The two chips, they look so big when compared to the surface mount on the main board, are TL072 dual op-amps. Each pair are wired to have identical circuits. The -24dB output is simply a voltage follower with a 1K series output resistor tapped from the emitter of the output transistor on the main board. The -6dB output is a non inverting amplifier with a voltage gain of 1.6, again with a 1K series resistor, and tapped from the source of the first stage's FET follower.

Tony

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by KSS » Wed May 27, 2020 6:28 am

Excellent report! Thank you Tony!

Will be curious how you find the pots and sliders with use..

Which brand or type patchcords were too long? Photo would do if yuo don't wish to call out a brand by name.

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by Synthbuilder » Wed May 27, 2020 7:19 am

KSS wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 6:28 am
Will be curious how you find the pots and sliders with use.
Indeed. They feel very smooth at the moment, but only time will tell. I do rather like the fact that the sliders have their own dust protection felt attached to them.

I suspect it will the sockets that will fail first. They are sturdy enough but there's a noticeable wiggle if you use stackables.
Which brand or type patchcords were too long?
Sadly I don't recall where I got them and they're unbranded. They do work OK in my other modules though.

I've tried to have a look at what is shorting out, but because of the enclosed nature of the sockets, I can't see what's touching what. It does seem to be a short to 0V and probably not to the upper copper flood as I would expect the solder resist to insulate in the first instance.

Tony

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by KSS » Wed May 27, 2020 7:56 am

Synthbuilder wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:19 am
KSS wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 6:28 am
Will be curious how you find the pots and sliders with use.
Indeed. They feel very smooth at the moment, but only time will tell. I do rather like the fact that the sliders have their own dust protection felt attached to them.
Felt? My supplier usually adds a capital "I" shaped slitted plastic film for slot protection. Long slice for travel. short horiz. slice top and bottom. Works pretty well.
It does seem to be a short to 0V and probably not to the upper copper flood as I would expect the solder resist to insulate in the first instance.
Underlined is less likely than you might expect. Depends on film or LPI mask. LPI being better. But don't ever trust solder mask to act as an insulator. May beokay at low voltages -and currents- but if voltage goes up a bit you might be surprised just how fragile it can be. I was.

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by Synthbuilder » Wed May 27, 2020 9:09 am

KSS wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:56 am
Felt?
Yes, it's like some thin felt like material. I'm not sure what it is, but it's translucent black and looks like compressed fibres rather than a thin film of shaped and cut plastic.
But don't ever trust solder mask to act as an insulator.
Oh I don't. But I would expect the layer to remain intact for at least the first few insertions until it wears thin. These patch leads shorted out the moment the plug is inserted in all the sockets, and the short is not intermittent either. That would suggest it's making contact with part of the socket itself or the solder around the socket's leads.

I see quite a few eurorack boards that rely on solder mask as an insulation. It's often around the support lugs on those vertical 9mm pots but also under sockets. It's really quite worrying.

Looking at these dodgy patch leads I reckon the plug part is about 0.5 to 1mm longer than the others I have.

Tony

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by Ema41 » Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:55 am

I received the Behringer 121 filter yesterday.

Just a few comments (I haven't explored everything yet ...):

- a very nice filter in "classic" mode, very Rolandish, very "fluid" as EG says for the Ripples.

- Test in auto oscillation mode on a single filter: the 1V / oct tracking is not entirely precise (roughly, -20 cents per octave). I have not seen a trimmer to tune the cutoff on the back. Same observation for tuning on both sides. Synthbuider, do you have the same issue?

Then, this is where it gets interesting and where we fall into the dark side of complex oscillators: thanks to the 6 audio inputs and the 6 modulation inputs, we can do cross (exponential) fm between oscillators, with feedback as needed .

Finally, the ping works very well. I found the resonance setting a little tricky to have the right release, but by patching the output of the filter / oscillator carrier on its own audio input, it works (I found that trick by error, maybe well known by experienced wigglers...)

I did a demo very quickly.
Here for the ping with fm cross modulation: the 121 is used alone and self patched, no envelope, VCA, effects or anything else...
https://fr.audiofanzine.com/rack-analog ... #id:487498
Note: there is a little bit of background noise, but it does not come from the 121 (I forgot to mute a track on mix table during recording)

And since it also filters:
https://fr.audiofanzine.com/rack-analog ... #id:487499
Input Io Themisto oscillator (saw). 2 AR envelopes (MI stages) and 1 VCA (Intellijel quad VCA). Only one filter used on the 121.

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by Synthbuilder » Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:33 pm

Ema41 wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:55 am
Test in auto oscillation mode on a single filter: the 1V / oct tracking is not entirely precise (roughly, -20 cents per octave). I have not seen a trimmer to tune the cutoff on the back. Same observation for tuning on both sides. Synthbuider, do you have the same issue?
I only spent a small amount of time checking the self-oscillation behaviour - I tend to use self-oscillating filters in less critical applications like percussion and wibbly noises. However, I did check the tuning and it was good enough over a couple of octaves, I think between 220Hz and 880Hz, and then it went horribly flat at higher frequencies. It has temperature compensation circuitry, based around an NTC resistor, but I'm not sure how good it is.

I think there is a tiny trimmer for scaling (V/oct) for each VCF but it's on the other side of the PCB. The board is easy to remove from the front panel. It just requires the five M2 screws to be unscrewed and it just comes away from the front panel.

One thing that bugs me about the module is that the CV inputs are only 1V/octave at their maximum settings. It would be nice to have at least one of the CV inputs to be more sensitive so you can get really big sweeps from envelopes that have a 0V to 5V output.

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