Behringer Roland System 100M clone

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by Cheekypete » Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:41 pm

It’s not out yet (in Europe)

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by Ema41 » Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:38 pm

Synthbuilder wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:56 pm
Looks like Behringer have fixed the scaling drift problem.

It's a long video, but it boils down to Tim got in touch with Behringer and they admitted they made a mistake, and told him that all new Dual VCO modules are made differently so as to correct for the scaling problem. He's managed to get one to test out and it does seem to behave better.

What I'd like to see is a close up picture of the reverse side of the module to see what changes were made.

Good news. The problem now is to be sure we buy the new one. I suspect online stores will try to sell the old faulty ones first... :confused:

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by erstlaub » Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:43 pm

Maybe I'm just lucky in that my cases are a nice stable temperature, but after about 20 minutes of warm up, I reckon my 112 tracks a good 6 or 7 octaves which is far better than any other analogue oscs in my cases so 'faulty' might not be the most accurate of terms.

I always find these sort of benchmark tests a little bit on the dry side, fair enough if you're the sort of synthesist that has a need for huge range and accuracy, most of the non digital oscs I've used, I pick what sort of register I'm working in and then usually get a few octaves around a central point.
Last edited by erstlaub on Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by SkyWriter » Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:45 pm

Ema41 wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:38 pm
Good news. The problem now is to be sure we buy the new one. I suspect online stores will try to sell the old faulty ones first... :confused:
For precisely that reason, what was fixed is of tantamount importance. Then old ones can be reworked. Keeping the resale market isn't in Behringer's best interests. Always drive business to new sales. Basic.
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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by ihav2p » Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:07 pm

I would question the validity of his tests. He never adjusts/sets the octave scaling. Of course its out of tune. Any analog oscillator would be. It's user error.

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by lorez22 » Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:09 pm

I had exactly the same problem with tuning on my 112, so I sent it back to the dealer, who tuned it and sent it back 3 days later,
now I have a range over 7 octaves, and it's very stable, nothing has been added to the board as far as I can see, and when I asked what repair had been carried out, I was told 'it's just been tuned by hand with a guitar tuner.
So maybe the 'fix' is just tuning it properly

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by Synthbuilder » Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:02 am

Unlike the majority of analogue VCO modules the original batch of 112 modules have no temperature compensation for scaling. The scale factor, ie. how many volts per octave, is therefore temperature dependant. The more the temperature changes, the more the scaling is out. Scale drift is a real nuisance because, unlike absolute pitch, it cannot be adjusted by the user quickly and easily. Whether this causes you a problem depends on a few things.

If the 112 was calibrated at the same temperature as the one you normally work in then you may not notice an issue. Any difference in temperature between the calibration temperature and the current temperature will result in a shift in the scaling. So if the internal temperature of the case, once warmed up, is roughly the same as the calibration temperature you'll not have a problem.

However, the internal temperature of the case will also depend on the room temperature. So you may not have a problem if your room temperature is fairly stable throughout the day. But if you are in a room where the temperature may vary by 10 degrees or so over the day or year, then you will probably have scaling issues.

When my 112 arrived it did not conform to the standard 1V per octave - the scaling calibration was out. But both VCOs were off by the same amount. This is because both VCOs were calibrated, but the temperature in the factory was different to that in my room. So I trimmed my module to track perfectly. However, some time later is was out. This is simply because the temperature in my room and modular case had shifted.

So I don't believe this is an error in the calibration of the units. I think that these early 112 units are indeed calibrated to 1.000V/octave. But that calibration only works at one specific temperature. Change the temperature and it will be out of tune.

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by Ema41 » Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:59 am

Synthbuilder wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:02 am
Unlike the majority of analogue VCO modules the original batch of 112 modules have no temperature compensation for scaling.
...which is the problem of the Roland/ Malekko 512 model too.

Behringer is suspected to have cloned modern clones (Roland/ Malekko 512 ???) of the Roland 100M, not the original which had temperature compensation (it has already been discussed here I think, but as I'm used to go to different Eurorack forums in different languages, I'm not sure :despair: ). They did the same with other clones (TB303, Wasp, MS20,... maybe all their clones, I don't know)
So, as SkyWriter said, the problem is to know if they just changed their calibration routine in the factory, or if they had temperature compensation (which mean redesign of the module)?

I'm the kind of musician that tune his music toys himself (even quality acoustic piano), so tuning 2 trimmers (scale, offset) per osc shouldn't be a big deal ( except if they are really bad quality as stated in the Boog 55 forum). But my studio have no air conditioning for very stable temperature (just huge passive isolation), so temperature compensation is important.

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by Synthbuilder » Fri Oct 09, 2020 7:39 am

Ema41 wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:59 am
...which is the problem of the Roland/ Malekko 512 model too.
Interestingly the 512 does have a PTC resistor in the CV control which should compensate the scaling. See the red rectangular 0805 resistor (R17) below the trimmer. Although this may have been added at a later stage in the production run.

Image

Picture courtesy of AV500 on Gearslutz.

Note the physical separation between the resistor and the NPN pair (Q1) which isn't beneficial. That said, it's certainly way better than no resistor at all.
... or if they had temperature compensation (which mean redesign of the module)?
I've seen the modified modules. They've definitely changed things - it actually looks a bit like my modification posted earlier in this thread. However, I'm not sure of the details because all I had was a quick glance.
But my studio have no air conditioning for very stable temperature (just huge passive isolation), so temperature compensation is important.
Yes, me too. My music room is only heated in the evening and early morning, so the temperature changes quite a bit during the day.

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by ihav2p » Fri Oct 09, 2020 1:47 pm

The 112 uses an lm3046, which might indicate that it uses the thermal oven method of compensation.

http://www.openmusiclabs.com/files/expotemp.pdf

With my limited knowledge I can't say either way though.

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by Synthbuilder » Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:50 pm

ihav2p wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 1:47 pm
The 112 uses an lm3046, which might indicate that it uses the thermal oven method of compensation.
That's what I thought when I first saw photographs of the back of the module. I thought that there was a VCO on each side of the board which is why I could only see one 3046. However, although the two VCO cores are on each side of the board, there is only one 3046 being used for both VCOs. This means there's not enough transistors spare to do the usual heater and sensor circuit like the Moog Prodigy. In the Behringer 112 the single spare transistor is simply not used.

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by KSS » Fri Oct 09, 2020 7:50 pm

Synthbuilder wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:50 pm
However, although the two VCO cores are on each side of the board, there is only one 3046 being used for both VCOs.
Like the minimoog sharing two 3046 among three VCOs.

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by Synthbuilder » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:18 am

A new version of the 112 VCO has landed. Complete with temp co resistors - these are the slightly bigger resistors (0805 size) near the larger chip in the middle of the board. Basically a surface mount version of my modification. You're welcome Uli.

The new board is the green one. So don't buy orange ones unless you don't mind scale drift or fancy doing a tricky modification.

New VCO design.jpg

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by stylesforfree » Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:49 am

Synthbuilder wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:18 am
A new version of the 112 VCO has landed. Complete with temp co resistors - these are the slightly bigger resistors (0805 size) near the larger chip in the middle of the board. Basically a surface mount version of my modification. You're welcome Uli.

The new board is the green one. So don't buy orange ones unless you don't mind scale drift or fancy doing a tricky modification.


New VCO design.jpg
Hey, awesome!, good work. Where did you order it from?

Also, the 2 outputs on the VCO, do they send out the same waveform thats selected or different waveforms? I was looking at the roland 512 and then the behringer 112 instead but noticed it doesnt have individual waveform outputs.

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by Hyberus » Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:08 am

stylesforfree wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:49 am
Synthbuilder wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:18 am
A new version of the 112 VCO has landed. Complete with temp co resistors - these are the slightly bigger resistors (0805 size) near the larger chip in the middle of the board. Basically a surface mount version of my modification. You're welcome Uli.

The new board is the green one. So don't buy orange ones unless you don't mind scale drift or fancy doing a tricky modification.


New VCO design.jpg
Hey, awesome!, good work. Where did you order it from?

Also, the 2 outputs on the VCO, do they send out the same waveform thats selected or different waveforms? I was looking at the roland 512 and then the behringer 112 instead but noticed it doesnt have individual waveform outputs.
Same waveform.
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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by ihav2p » Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:33 am

wow! crazy that they used green. does it take less time to reach stable tuning?

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by Synthbuilder » Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:34 am

stylesforfree wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:49 am
Where did you order it from?
Not mine sadly. The picture came from a Facebook post.

I'd like to have a closer look at one of the new ones to see what other changes have been made. I'm not going to buy one though...

I wonder whether they have fixed the unwanted soft synchronisation issue? That's something I didn't notice before but when you tune the two VCOs to approximately the same frequency they lock together and no longer beat gently. It happens with other dual VCO synths, and maybe some other dual VCO modules too, particularly at high frequencies. But on the original Behringer 112 modules with the orange boards it happens a little too readily.
the 2 outputs on the VCO, do they send out the same waveform thats selected or different waveforms?
Like the original System 100M 112 module the two outputs are the same signal. However, you can also get the pulse wave output from the Sync Out socket no matter what the main outputs are doing.

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by SkyWriter » Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:37 am

Orange vs green (sorry color blind can't see it) is a board stock choice no? We need a PN or rev number. They should change the part number. This is not great for customers at all like this.
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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by Synthbuilder » Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:42 am

ihav2p wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:33 am
does it take less time to reach stable tuning?
The previous orange boards would never reach stable tuning since the scaling was affected by the surrounding temperature. If you were lucky and the module was always at the same temperature and was calibrated at that temperature, the VCOs would be in tune and scale well. Most of us though, don't live in a temperature controlled environment, so the original orange model suffered from scaling issues.

The new green boards seem to use the traditional 'temp co.' resistors so should track well enough across a reasonable range of temperatures. My modified orange PCB 112 module, which I modified myself, tracks pretty well a ten minutes or so after powering up.

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by ihav2p » Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:44 am

nice tip with the sync jack

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by Synthbuilder » Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:49 am

SkyWriter wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:37 am
Orange vs green (sorry color blind can't see it) is a board stock choice no? We need a PN or rev number. They should change the part number.
The green one is on the left. Which is unusual for Behringer as all the boards I have seen from them are orange. The colour is determined by the colour of the solder mask coating which can be obtained in various standard colours. Green was always the traditional colour.

I agree about the part numbering. The panels and packing cartons have probably all been printed so that probably won't change - but it would be nice to know what you're buying. I'm guessing that all new ones sold will be the corrected versions since they've been sold out for quite some time now.

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by stylesforfree » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:29 am

Synthbuilder wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:34 am
stylesforfree wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:49 am
Where did you order it from?
Not mine sadly. The picture came from a Facebook post.

I'd like to have a closer look at one of the new ones to see what other changes have been made. I'm not going to buy one though...

I wonder whether they have fixed the unwanted soft synchronisation issue? That's something I didn't notice before but when you tune the two VCOs to approximately the same frequency they lock together and no longer beat gently. It happens with other dual VCO synths, and maybe some other dual VCO modules too, particularly at high frequencies. But on the original Behringer 112 modules with the orange boards it happens a little too readily.
the 2 outputs on the VCO, do they send out the same waveform thats selected or different waveforms?
Like the original System 100M 112 module the two outputs are the same signal. However, you can also get the pulse wave output from the Sync Out socket no matter what the main outputs are doing.

Ahhh, interesting, thanks for the info, I might wait for it to be shipped then, I heard through the wire that the system 500 has been discontinued. So I may have to settle for the Boland 112.

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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by SkyWriter » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:37 am

Synthbuilder wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:42 am
ihav2p wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:33 am
does it take less time to reach stable tuning?
The previous orange boards would never reach stable tuning since the scaling was affected by the surrounding temperature. If you were lucky and the module was always at the same temperature and was calibrated at that temperature, the VCOs would be in tune and scale well. Most of us though, don't live in a temperature controlled environment, so the original orange model suffered from scaling issues.

The new green boards seem to use the traditional 'temp co.' resistors so should track well enough across a reasonable range of temperatures. My modified orange PCB 112 module, which I modified myself, tracks pretty well a ten minutes or so after powering up.
Ugh, still can't tell them apart by color. Not good.
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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by Norgatron » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:23 pm

It could be something dumb like B needed a fast turnaround and the PCB vendor could only do green for expedited orders.

Anyway, I got my 297 Dual Portamento / CV Utilities last week. I haven’t had a chance to try it yet, and it was a few weeks later than advertised, but it looks okay.
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Re: Behringer Roland System 100M clone

Post by KSS » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:43 pm

Yes, I thought ptototype-ish. "Prototype" means something different when you're mass producing.
Like an intentional color variation to quickly-visibly track the results, and keep-go back to the old color once results are proven.

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