Behringer System 55

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Klanglab
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Klanglab » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:20 pm

Ah Hyberus, that explains the swift and knowledgeable answer! Hope you enjoy the 960. Despite some of the criticism that I share, B's system 55 thus far turns out to be everything I hoped for. One thing: you hardly can play it if you can't tune by ear. But that's part of the 55's legacy I guess, and part of the fun.

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SkyWriter
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:40 pm

Klanglab wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:20 pm
Ah Hyberus, that explains the swift and knowledgeable answer! Hope you enjoy the 960. Despite some of the criticism that I share, B's system 55 thus far turns out to be everything I hoped for. One thing: you hardly can play it if you can't tune by ear. But that's part of the 55's legacy I guess, and part of the fun.
Guitar tuner :-)

but, yeah. That's what I like about 55, it's nuts and bolts - leaves the creativity up to you.

Ebotronix
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Ebotronix » Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:12 pm

my system 55...
Behringer: Go Case²
1x Behringer 914 Fixed Filterbank
10x Behringer 921 VC Oscillator
5x Behringer 904A VC Low Pass Filter
4x Behringer 904B VC High Pass Filter
1x Behringer CP35 Attenuators
4x Behringer CP3A-M Mixer
6x Behringer 902 VCA
8x Behringer 911 Envelope Generator
2x Behringer 961 Interface
1x Behringer CP 1
1x 962 Sequencial Switch
1x Randon Signal Generator
1x CP 35 Attenuators
1x 914 Fixed Filter Bank
1x 995 Attenuators
2x CP 3A - 0 Oscillator Controller

one track - 4 voice chords , 3 voice bass, 3 voice diatonic ribbon lead, noise

quantization by ornament and crime
Doepfer Ribbon Controller

Last edited by Ebotronix on Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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SkyWriter
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:37 am

Fun stuff @ebotronix!

Guess you got rid of the 921A&B for the 921's?

Not really sold on the CP35 though, for the panel space 995 and CP3A-M's, make more sense. (You've got it twice on you list :-) )

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Ebotronix » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:45 am

I had 8x 921B and 2x 921A.
but the scaling and the tuning was unstable .(with 2 hours warm up)
sended them back.
for the vid I use 10x 921 VC ( two more 921VC's are on the way)
the sync is much better with the 921VC 's
the CP 35 is ok ,the 995 is a passive module.

betovelandia
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by betovelandia » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:45 am

SkyWriter wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:56 pm
betovelandia wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:49 pm
I wonder if it would be useful to make some brackets similar to the mantis to connect two behringer Eurorack cases, anyone interested?
I'm going to stack two Go's vertically. Sandwich them between poorly finished pine 'console size' cheeks. ;) I wish the Go case didn't have that inflection between rows - you can line two cases up, so the adjacent faces are co-planar - but three is both a bit silly, and really tall! I'll stack a pine box on top. It's literally out of reach sitting down there anyway - at least in any repeatable fashion :-)

I like the 55's series because each module is a single no-nonsense function. Of course, it would take a crazy amount of models to replace a Tides, for instance. But it's both good plumbing, and uniformly black face plates :-) plus those little racing stripe aluminum strips down the side are pretty cool - once you line them all up.

But if that's not your look, there plenty of denser plumbing options out there. And man, you are going to have to get doepfer slew rate and S+H modules :-)

I'm using the 55 to model analog paths along with Mutable Plaits and Elements, for compound, high-integration functions (with black magpie panels... and black cables bwahahahaha!).

I'm going for that console instrument look. All-Black and stained wood. It never looks messy even 1/2 cabled!
-------------------
Btw, @betovelandia got a URL? I'm not seeing what I thought I would see for mantis.

Oooo, I like the look of that! In black!
Image
Similar approach here:
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betovelandia
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by betovelandia » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:49 am

...
Last edited by betovelandia on Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by betovelandia » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:00 am

Ebotronix wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:45 am
I had 8x 921B and 2x 921A.
but the scaling and the tuning was unstable .(with 2 hours warm up)
sended them back.
for the vid I use 10x 921 VC ( two more 921VC's are on the way)
the sync is much better with the 921VC 's
the CP 35 is ok ,the 995 is a passive module.
I am getting similar results with my 2 921Bs I can not seem to be able to get the same note when I play different octaves ( I guess that’s what you refer as scaling right?)

betovelandia
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by betovelandia » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:02 am

Ebotronix wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:51 pm
921b scaling
correction #2
after an hour of warm up the scaling was out .
I have 8 x 921 B and no one doesn't track 1v / Oct.
I made the scaling procedure from the model D, now they track over 3 octaves .
Any chance you can share the procedure ?

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Ebotronix » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:18 am

there is a you tube vid
BEHRINGER MODEL D OSCILLATOR TUNING GUIDE

betovelandia
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by betovelandia » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:10 pm

Ok, I found the instructions to calibrate the 921B and while I was following the procedure I found certain problems setting the HI adj trimmer to return 20.48 KHz @ +5VDC it seems impossible to lower it to that value, has anyone here experienced something similar? Here’s the calibration procedure in case anyone needs it:
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SkyWriter
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:24 pm

They don't have the 921B in stock state side yet AFAIK. But I have two 921's that are solid.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by betovelandia » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:37 pm

SkyWriter wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:24 pm
They don't have the 921B in stock state side yet AFAIK. But I have two 921's that are solid.
Did you calibrate them?

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SkyWriter
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:14 am

betovelandia wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:37 pm
SkyWriter wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:24 pm
They don't have the 921B in stock state side yet AFAIK. But I have two 921's that are solid.
Did you calibrate them?
Nope. They were fine right out of the box for tuning. The triangle and sine symmetry both had to be tweaked on mine. I'll probably get 2 more 921's before the 921B's become available here - but it should be soon now..

I'm thinking of opening slots in the back of my Go case for passive ventilation, although I don't have overheating yet - better now than never. Also, getting another Go case, 1st is full :-)

betovelandia
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by betovelandia » Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:20 am

I’ve spent one day and a half learning to calibrate the 921Bs I gotta say it isn’t an easy task, the biggest problem is the instability of the frequency through time, I just adjusted my scale and kept a constant voltage of -2V on the 921AB LINK FREQ input and the frequency went up 3 Hz in a matter of three minutes, no interaction with the module just drifting slowly, starting to look at AION modular’s 921ABB as a better option tbh.

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SkyWriter
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:01 pm

So here's a little thing I've noticed. I've taken apart four 911's, plus @ishi's photo here:

Image

You'll notice:
53B15C0B-076C-442E-BF82-43280039C37E.jpeg
They were all like this. I sent one back because there was rework here and it's was... terrible.

It's a peculiar feature. I haven't looked into the circuitry around it, just rejected on workmanship alone. It looks like it's a blob of lacquer. There is a resistor associated with Esus Trimpot that is labeled 'Selected'. This may be a hard factory trim - which would explain bad rework. They potted bad rework! Yuck!


0E755F3B-1415-4E74-92BD-8E413689E5E2.jpeg
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acidblue
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by acidblue » Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:22 pm

Has any one tried modding the 923 filter to do CV control??

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:42 pm

acidblue wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:22 pm
Has any one tried modding the 923 filter to do CV control??
Vactrol might be the best option. The LP and HP here are not really meant to be VC.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by betovelandia » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:31 pm

Just opened a ticket with Behringer regarding frequency drifting, I will post what I find out. I would also like to share my findings on the calibration of a 921B for anyone who might be interested in the future:

Calibration facts of a Behringer 921B:
- There are 4 potentiometers/trimmers behind the module that modify the calibration of the oscillator: SCALE, HI ADJ, FREQUENCY, OCT ADJ
- There is a lower frequency scaling and a high frequency scaling modified with SCALE and HI ADJ accordingly.
- FREQUENCY acts as the center, think of it as the or point of reference used to scale high or low. You might need to adjust it after making changes to HI ADJ & SCALE.
- Adjustments to OCTAVE fix the frequency you get when you use the RANGE knob (front of the panel) You might want to check that your note is stable throughout all the octaves if it isn't OCTAVE might be able to help.
- OCTAVE does not affect the 2" range, you should set the frequency reference on 2" and turn the RANGE down and then adjust your OCTAVE
- Making changes to SCALE ALSO affects the frequency you get when you change your RANGE (front panel) (If you get the same problem I get this value starts to drift after a while, to me it is ~0.01 Hz / 10 Seconds going up, I am still trying to understand how to fix that and have opened a ticket to get some feedback from Behringer. Point is if your frequency is off when you go from 2' to 32' you might want to check your SCALE on 2' and a negative CV before making changes to OCTAVE.

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galanter2
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by galanter2 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:11 pm

josaka wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:35 am
SkyWriter wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:56 pm
lorez22 wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:48 pm
I'm Struggling to get that fat Moog Sound with the modules I've got so far 3x 921, low pass filter, VCA and mixer...any hints
I've never understood what the 'Fat Moog Sound' phenomenon is all about. But, from experimenting with just voicing band limited sawtooth waveforms In Plaits code, even with ostensibly equivalent looking waveforms, sawtooth's can sound dramatically different. The thing about analogs, non-linearities - such as ramp slope - can affect perceived sound.

Having said all that, these are not the same circuits as the OG modules, and may have a characteristic waveform that differs unremarkably in every way from the canonical "Moog Sound" waveform, but lack that quintessential aspect folks hunt for.

Push the loudness button. :-)
its called CP3 mixer.. :) ..oh.. and 901s !
This video does a nice job of explaining how the original CP3 adds desirable distortion when overdriven.



Behringer says their CP3A-M uses no IC's, only transistors that duplicate the original design. It would be interesting to run one through the paces similar to the video, and verify it sounds like a Moog CP3.

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SkyWriter
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:23 pm

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fprs87
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by fprs87 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:40 am

galanter2 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:11 pm

Behringer says their CP3A-M uses no IC's, only transistors that duplicate the original design. It would be interesting to run one through the paces similar to the video, and verify it sounds like a Moog CP3.
I've got 2x 921Bs and a CP3A-M here. I can't get the 921Bs to clip like in the video, the oscillator output is very low from the 921Bs (around 1.5-1.6v peak to peak). Not hot enough to saturate the mixer?

If I try with another oscillator (Pittsburgh Oscillator, its output is about 11v peak to peak), turning up the mixer input I can see the output start to distort on the oscilloscope with the same kind of notch at 3:15 in the video.

Anyone else tried with 921B and CP3A-M?

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CZ Rider
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by CZ Rider » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:03 am

To get overdrive or distortion from those Moog mixers you can always patch the positive output back into a mixer input. The Moog CP3 not only combines signals, it also amplifies by a factor of about 2. Need more drive, use a multiple and send 2 or 3 of the + output back into the inputs. It's modular so you can patch interesting ways. Can filter that feed back loop, or even use a VCA, envelope combination for voltage controlled overdrive.

Not sure about those original 1974 and on Norlin era 55 and 35, being that classic Moog tone. Perhaps a little different. One of the improvements was the 930 power supply on the 35 and 55. This allowed +/- 15 volt for the redesigned CP circuits. The CP3 was now a CP3A and used 1458 IC (dual 741 opamp) for mixing with more headroom. One could hit the 904 filter or other modules harder for overdrive, but the CP3A threshold should be much higher.
Here are the two CP3 and CP3A side by side for comparison.
Image
The Behringer mixer looks to be a clone of the CP3A using opamps. The old CP3 needed a dual ganged 10k pot where the CP3A needs only a single 5k pot for final output level. Same mixer as the 35 and 55 used.

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josaka
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by josaka » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:25 am

to get the moog(1.3v) osc up to moden modular 'levels' a lot of folk use a signal/level boost like a .com Q114 mixer..
I imagine that it where the "clipping" in that video is coming from..

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SkyWriter
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:44 am

CP3A-M is using the LM337 and a dual ganged output pot.

The center wipers ohm out to 217 ohms to the output terminals, one gang per output. So, not exactly the same, but not too different. If it has any distortion aspects, I suspect they're unrelated to the originals mechanisms, not that there's anything wrong with that. :-)

FWIW, I originally measured only a 10% boost through - not 2X, so more differences.

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