Behringer System 55

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KSS
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:20 pm

Well done, Rob!

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:02 pm

Can anyone recommend a panel paint and silk screen service?

The upgrades on the Poly D are coming out so fine, I'm adding a 1/4 inch 14-16 channel trunk into the rear of my System 55, mating to a 16 jack 8hp panel. It's quite complementary to the the Modular sound - not surprising :-)
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by tomylee » Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:30 pm

SkyWriter wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:35 am

A9137E81-9A53-4163-A875-60BECC469C4E.jpeg
lovely wood-panels for the 2xGO cases, are they an easy fit?

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:45 pm

tomylee wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:30 pm
SkyWriter wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:35 am

A9137E81-9A53-4163-A875-60BECC469C4E.jpeg
lovely wood-panels for the 2xGO cases, are they an easy fit?
Don''t look too close! I had to do them freehand on a 8" band saw with a 1/4 " wood blade. My fence is broke. The interior angle of the case design makes that angle too tough to cut on a table saw - I tried lol! I don't have much wood-smarts, anyone could outdo me on this one.

I just bought two cases, stood them on end and stenciled off the cuts on the wood stock. The wood itself was pretty expensive* - I should have been more careful. I have enough wood left over to do a third cab on top - need more room to fit some of Rob's cool stuff :-)

Now that I have the Poly D I'll try to match the stain there. But I'm hopelessly color blind - I need my seeing eye wife to assist

*- I needed 12 inch width with no cup, twist, kink, crook or bow!
Prologue 16 - an adventure worth having!

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:27 am

SkyWriter wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:02 pm
Can anyone recommend a panel paint and silk screen service?
Kinda hard to beat UV printing at this point. Rich at LWSS Lower West Side Studios AKA member "Flareless" in Canada has a Roland Versa UV LEF-20 and offers panel services. If he's too far, the folks behind boith Euro and USA Front Panel Designer-Express also offer UV printing. I believe the parent company Schaeffer? is located in Germany? <-- I think that's where you're located?

If you *do* end up with a screen printer, be *sure* they're experienced with printing on metal. And over powder-coating if you use that! The huge preponderance of screen printers are doing T-shirts. Wrong inks, wrong screen mesh, and vastly relaxed registration compared to what a decent metal panel requires.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SynthBaron » Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:31 am

Moog Modular panel font is Alternate Gothic #2, BTW...

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:31 am

SkyWriter wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:02 pm
I'm adding a 1/4 inch 14-16 channel trunk into the rear of my System 55, mating to a 16 jack 8hp panel.
Why not use the 8 channel audio standard on DB25 connectors? Actually there are two different standards -both using DB25- and one of them would be the typical way to trunk 8 or 16 channels to a breakout, patch bay or second device.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:26 am

KSS wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:31 am
SkyWriter wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:02 pm
I'm adding a 1/4 inch 14-16 channel trunk into the rear of my System 55, mating to a 16 jack 8hp panel.
Why not use the 8 channel audio standard on DB25 connectors? Actually there are two different standards -both using DB25- and one of them would be the typical way to trunk 8 or 16 channels to a breakout, patch bay or second device.
Indeed*, I was first thinking about converting an XV-351 from my voyager. Then the pile of snakes I pulled out of my studio caught my eye. So, I thought I would just use a couple of old snakes, they're in good condition, right length and 'size', bought, and have 1/4 inch jack for more rugged external connections.

I still[/h] have to build up euro panels for all my moogerfooger's :0)

Germany? Nope, newengland - all one word - home of the minicomputer! Lol!

Thanks all for the panel recommendations! And thank you Rob for giving me a target to shoot for! And especially KSS for all the faboo tips :-)
------
*-Speaking of which, I have an unfinished hex guitar (bartolini pickup) project from the 80's with a DB25 connector for signal. That cold be cool here too. Too many projects :0)
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by tomylee » Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:24 pm

@ skywriter, thanks for all the input, I ordered knobs and pots the other day, they arrived yesterday, from there I went on soldering, took many hours, nice surprises.

did two 911, two 902, two 904A and one 904b, did the cp35, 911a, 961, cp3a, 923.

hesistant still with the 914, not sure if it is worth the work, also hesitating with the 921.

lovely sounds overall, the knobs are a bit narrow at times, but it's ok, I also ordered the smaller ones, I don't really need them and they are a little confusing (no mark on top)

I found that 923 can still be a little jerky, I thought the knob would solve this 100% but it solved it about 95 to 90%.

911 mod is a complete win. much more control.

one thing is on my mind rn: how to calibrate the cp3a-m for DC signals? I have no oscilloscope or high resolution volt meters, also there is no procedure given from behriner. well well.

skydiver, is it possible the cp3a does limit slew a little? when feeding it CV to control an oscillator, it seems to tune in for about a sec, sounds like portamento. weird. maybe a calibration thing, it's too late for me to figure out for to calibrate this thing, been soldering all day.

also: not sure how to calibrate the filters properly. oh, and I tried the 50k pot on the 904B but it gets jerky with it when rocked hard, needs a 5k one to work properly, is this a problem with CV now?

btw a heat gun helps heaps, took me a couple minutes swapping each pot. of course you need to stabilize and setup your station very well. also be careful using the heatgun, I fried the trimpot for noise level on the 923, was barely able to fix it, so it works for now.

here's my impro rack:

edit: (had to delete image, privacy concerns)
Last edited by tomylee on Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:55 pm

tomylee wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:24 pm
knobs are a bit narrow at times, but it's ok, I also ordered the smaller ones, I don't really need them and they are a little confusing (no mark on top)
A locating dimple made with a drywall screw, followed by spinning small drill bit in your fingers, or in a pin vise <--I wouldn't use an electric drill, but it would also work. Follow up with some white model paint, nail polish or liquid paper AKA white-out, and you have top dots!
one thing is on my mind rn: how to calibrate the cp3a-m for DC signals? I have no oscilloscope or high resolution volt meters, also there is no procedure given from behriner. well well.
Don't have the B-CP3a, but looking at the moog schematic it's a simple 1458 dual opamp design, with an input and output offset trim. With a meter, you'd turn all pots CCW, no inputs and probe pin 1 -maybe pin 7 of the 8 pin DIP., see explanation just below. Adjust the input trim for 0Volts.

If you don't have a meter we have to get creative and use a VCO as a very good and sensitive voltmeter. To do that you need only patch the VCO between a mixer input and pin1 again. All knobs set as before except the mixer channel you're using, which should be turned full CW-
Since a patchcord tip is likely too big to hit only one pin of the IC wrap some solid copper wire around its tip and probe with that. Patch CV into one channel of the mixer. Take the other end of the modified patchcord to the V/oct input of your VCO.

The dual OpAmp Behringer used may instead be laid out with its 2nd opamp in the position I'm seeing from the moog schematic. That means U might need to probe pin 7 instead. I'd look for test points on the PCB. If you post a good PCB photo, We can look for them too.

Alternate between a straight patch from your CV source to your VCO and the one through the mixer. Adjust the input offset trim until the pitch is the same from both patches. Betcha didn't know you *do* already have a good voltmeter! Good -for most people- down to 3/100ths of a 12th of a volt! ;)

Now that the input offset is zeroed, you can do the rest without probing the PCB. A single plain patchcord from mixer out to VCO v/oct in. Remove the copper wire -or bent paper clip ;) from the tip of the patchcord and plug that end into the mixer output jack. Adjust the outout offset trim until your VCO is at the same pitch as before. Done.
skydiver, is it possible the cp3a does limit slew a little? when feeding it CV to control an oscillator, it seems to tune in for about a sec, sounds like portamento. weird. maybe a calibration thing,
The 1458 is seen quite often in older audio circuits. It's not the worlds fastest -slew rate- OPA so it *can* show some slew -AKA 'portamento'. But I would expect that to be minimal for most audio work. It might be more noticed with audio rate CV. Larger range of CV increases that likelihood.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by emuarc » Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:58 pm

The Behringer CP3A-M is actually a CP3 module, all transistor design from the IIIP. It will slew any signal below -6v, also makes for lovely distortion.
Great for audio but not so good for CVs. The CP3 has a high cut filter which I have added to the Behringer with a toggle switch.

To get a true CP3A then put our PCB on the rear of the Behringer, make some mods, and enjoy pure clean audio and cv signals with x2 boost.

All credit to Behringer for making the iconic CP3.
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:05 pm

tomylee wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:24 pm
I found that 923 can still be a little jerky, I thought the knob would solve this 100% but it solved it about 95 to 90%.

also: not sure how to calibrate the filters properly. oh, and I tried the 50k pot on the 904B but it gets jerky with it when rocked hard, needs a 5k one to work properly, is this a problem with CV now?
Hey Tomy, I'm not sure what you're saying here.
- 923; both filters get a C50K pot. Reverse Log taper. There are available through a few US places here. But not thonk. That should solve the problem on the highend. I have only found solid shaft, not D-shaft. A bigger knob couldn't really help at all.

- 904A; the C50K pot on the 904A is for regeneration. The Control Voltage pot should be a B50K not a B5K.

Wrt to the CP3M-A, there's also an LM337 on there I mistook for the opamp version of the 4 input mixer. Plus a couple of the SMT transistors* and a couple of the diode packs from the opamp version as well. Also has the dual gang output stage like the opamp version. So, kind of confused here.

*-which should be four rather than two for the CP3?

@KSS posted pix of the two schematics earlier in this thread for comparision.

Here's the only poor photo I think I have.
A48C3301-59A6-4C9A-83C8-3CBBEA6324E6.jpeg
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:33 pm

The pair of six legged ICs in the upper middle of your pic could be two tranny pairs.. The three SOT23's and 8pin?? Somewhere there would be a -6V Vreg. So that would account for at least one of these.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:31 pm

KSS wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:33 pm
The pair of six legged ICs in the upper middle of your pic could be two tranny pairs.. The three SOT23's and 8pin?? Somewhere there would be a -6V Vreg. So that would account for at least one of these.
Maybe. Back on page 22 we went through this module. Pretty sure those were diode packs from the CP3 version when I looked earlier.

CZ Rider had posted this earlier when we discussed it. There are components with features from both versions. I haven't traced it, but Rob's done some mods... he can't be far wrong! Lol.

Image

Idk yet. Maybe Rob can post some of his infos. I'm up to my elbows in Poly D atm. :0)
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by tomylee » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:40 am

Hey Tomy, I'm not sure what you're saying here.
- 923; both filters get a C50K pot. Reverse Log taper. There are available through a few US places here. But not thonk. That should solve the problem on the highend. I have only found solid shaft, not D-shaft. A bigger knob couldn't really help at all.
jep, I re-checked and the problem is almost gone, the jerkiness happened when the noise module of the unit was too loud cause of the failing level trimpot inside (cause of my berzerk heat gun action.. ;)) now it sounds like this:
less jumpy but still.mp3
(1.3 MiB) Not downloaded yet
edit: wait, I have not checked for "reverse log" when ordering at thonk - I got C50K and put them in the 923, they sound fine, it's less jumpy but still there a tad. are they not reverse log taper?
- 904A; the C50K pot on the 904A is for regeneration. The Control Voltage pot should be a B50K not a B5K.
well the table you posted showed the 904 filters to have B503's in them, mine had B502's in them, so I used B5K-ones as replacement, I tried B50K on the 904B, but I got some weird behaviour when moving the knob too fast, so I put in B5K's and they are fine now. are you sure your filters came with B503's? or is there a particular reason you up-graded to 50K instead of 5K on yours? try feeding your 904B some noise and rocking the knob hard, especially fully CCW, watch listen what happens. maybe we got a different revision, my filters definitely had B502's in them, not B503. The c50k for resonance is fine though, there was a 05C503 in there before.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by tomylee » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:31 am

KSS wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:55 pm

[...]
hey there,

I probed the pins, they don't change when I turn the DC-level adjuster on the back, image:

I get about 1.26V at pin 1, and -6.8V at pin 7 of the 8 pin IC. as you can see there is a DC and Balance Trim. not sure if your idea applies to this unit, as others pointed out it is more like a C3P than a C3Pa - still want to calibrate it, so far it seems to almost track perfect when I set one input to 6, and master to full clockwise. not sure what I am trying to achieve, I will probably not use this for CV anyways, I just want it set up correctly. maybe I'll just play around with it in the end so it tracks nicely when an input is set to 6 - the gain boost in the upper region of the pot-range does not help for CV I guess. wondering how this thing treats CV compared to audio, when applying boost. this thing confuses me.
front.JPG
back.JPG
edit: btw, I read your post on page 7, lovely writeup, lots of inspiring ideas and I agree completely. I always wondered why modern stuff mostly doesn't have the mojo or doesn't live. well, this might be it:
It's also true that the old carbon comp resistors changed values over time. Often they will settle into a symbiotic relationship with other parts in their circuit.
really liking the way you're thinking there. adaptive electronics, or the T1000 of electronics.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by tomylee » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:12 am

so, why don't we have some audio of these cute little modules

I used skywriter's LPF and HPF into + and - of a vca trick to get some notchy sound, panned it left and added some gainmatched phaser fx on hard right - all driven by an 182 and then some tweaking.
some audio of this sweet little modular.mp3
(4.32 MiB) Not downloaded yet

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by tomylee » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:35 am

another thing worth mentioning when doing the knob upgrade on a 904a, is that that annoying popping sound when changing the frequency range the first couple times, is gone now. it was a pretty loud annoying pop, anyone else having it on the vanilla 904a?

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:35 am

tomylee wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:40 am
well the table you posted showed the 904 filters to have B503's in them, mine had B502's in them, so I used B5K-ones as replacement, I tried B50K on the 904B, but I got some weird behaviour when moving the knob too fast, so I put in B5K's and they are fine now. are you sure your filters came with B503's? or is there a particular reason you up-graded to 50K instead of 5K on yours? try feeding your 904B some noise and rocking the knob hard, especially fully CCW, watch listen what happens. maybe we got a different revision, my filters definitely had B502's in them, not B503. The c50k for resonance is fine though, there was a 05C503 in there before.
Yup! looks like I slipped a decimal there. The schematics said 5K too. Thanks! I'll fix it.

I don't play with the knob so it didn't show up. Considering it's just a voltage divider input into the summing network the effect isn't huge. I hadn't calibrated them up so they could have been doing anything :0)
------
Same with the 904B.
------
No clue about the popping. Interesting. Perhaps, that pot was particularly poor. I see you went to town on the CP3A-M too. :-) at least when stuff start to fail, we'll have a couple of control groups with different pots :-)
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by tomylee » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:11 am

SkyWriter wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:35 am
No clue about the popping. Interesting. Perhaps, that pot was particularly poor. I see you went to town on the CP3A-M too. :-) at least when stuff start to fail, we'll have a couple of control groups with different pots :-)
the popping was with the stock pots, it's gone with the alpha ones, very pleased by this. you didn't have any popping with the stock ones when turning the frequency range selector? I did, it went away after a few turns, but after a couple minutes it came back, something charging up in there and unloading into audio circuit, anyways, gone now. 👍

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:29 am

tomylee wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:11 am
SkyWriter wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:35 am
No clue about the popping. Interesting. Perhaps, that pot was particularly poor. I see you went to town on the CP3A-M too. :-) at least when stuff start to fail, we'll have a couple of control groups with different pots :-)
the popping was with the stock pots, it's gone with the alpha ones, very pleased by this. you didn't have any popping with the stock ones when turning the frequency range selector? I did, it went away after a few turns, but after a couple minutes it came back, something charging up in there and unloading into audio circuit, anyways, gone now. 👍
I think I’m the only person that doesn’t play with filter cutoff knobs :-) I’ll see what I can find!
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by tomylee » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:23 am

I think I’m the only person that doesn’t play with filter cutoff knobs :-) I’ll see what I can find!
would you say better pots for the oscillators are a big enough improvement? what kind of, I'm still hesitant to mod it, will likely do some time later though, I wonder what it adds to the table in case of osc, did not find you writing about it. I almost wrecked the level adj trimpot on the 923, going to need replacement for that one sometime down the line, you happen to have schematics for the behringers?

some weeks ago I did a nice live-take, and the original (rather erratic) behaviour of the range switch on my 921 was rather pleasant. when perfomed right, it would do a nice glissando effect which was very musical. this could be gone if I put in new (better) knobs, so I'd rather have you talking me into it or I'll hesitate more ;)
but turning knobs is where all the fun is.mp3
(2.76 MiB) Not downloaded yet

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by pricklyrobot » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:39 am

KSS wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:27 am
If you *do* end up with a screen printer, be *sure* they're experienced with printing on metal. And over powder-coating if you use that! The huge preponderance of screen printers are doing T-shirts. Wrong inks, wrong screen mesh, and vastly relaxed registration compared to what a decent metal panel requires.
Heed this warning!;)

When I got into building pedals my first thought was that I’d screenprint my enclosures. I’d worked in t-shirt and sign shops, and done posters at home for several years. Should be a cinch, right?

I had some idea that proper off-contact and more solvent-heavy inks might be needed with a completely non-absorbent surface. But after a few very smeared trial runs I realized I’d pretty much need all new screens, etc. to make it work.

Ended up switching to chemical etching, a cool new thing to learn, and way better suited to a home DIY-type setup.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:49 am

pricklyrobot wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:39 am
KSS wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:27 am
If you *do* end up with a screen printer, be *sure* they're experienced with printing on metal. And over powder-coating if you use that! The huge preponderance of screen printers are doing T-shirts. Wrong inks, wrong screen mesh, and vastly relaxed registration compared to what a decent metal panel requires.
Heed this warning!;)

When I got into building pedals my first thought was that I’d screenprint my enclosures. I’d worked in t-shirt and sign shops, and done posters at home for several years. Should be a cinch, right?

I had some idea that proper off-contact and more solvent-heavy inks might be needed with a completely non-absorbent surface. But after a few very smeared trial runs I realized I’d pretty much need all new screens, etc. to make it work.

Ended up switching to chemical etching, a cool new thing to learn, and way better suited to a home DIY-type setup.
Lol! Love the 'FEED' pedal :0)

Tomy, the way I look at it is; if the pot offends thee, pluck it out! I found so much not to be happy about with the pots, I just replaced them all. Having said that, I expect anyone would be happy with better pots on oscillators for tuning at least. The rest depends on your use cases - but everyone tunes... well mostly everyone.
-------
Wrt schematics, Tomy, I am using the Norlin Technical Service Manual for Moog Modular Systems you can find online. They're close enough for reverse engineering uses. I just don't have time to buzz these all out unless I was going to go fully Rob's route.

I'm not interested in authenticity as much as acceptable operation. The filter sounds filtery enough - once tracking is better, the oscillators are undeniably saw, square, sine, and tri - after a bit of calibration. :0)
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by m0n0mania » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:59 pm

I’m loving the repotting threads, I’ve been thinking of getting a 960 to rebuild as 5u to supplement my dotcom one. I have a few other ideas I want to try on it too, less hassle to blow a Boog up than the Dotcom.
A couple of quick Qs about it;
Is it all S-trig everywhere? (On the 961 too?)
What’s the ratio on the stage gate outs? Dotcom is 100% so a pain to OR them together as you end up with 1 long gate rather than 2 individual ones.
Did they implement a “reset to 1st step” option on the switch? I never use “stop” but use “reset” a lot on the dotcom.
Moog modular in Euro: ponytail or no?

And: if the pots are dead to you anyway, why not snip they tiny legs off before desoldering? Easier to tease out one lug stump at a time than 3 at once no?
I was even considering leaving them all on the board and attaching new pots and sockets by cables to the solder pads.

Keep up the good work, top geekery.

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