Behringer System 55

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Funky40 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:13 pm

ahhh wait, i have it:
some people try to warn us that they might just use the same three Resistor values over and over again !
same for the caps: three values !..........has to do.
who would care for the sound, no ?


who knows, maybe thats where the cheap prices are coming from, who knows ?? :lol:


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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by InsectInPixel » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:29 pm

ObsoleteModular wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:08 am
InsectInPixel wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:53 am
I'm pretty sure Uli Behringer studied Ludwig Von Mises' Austrian Economic Theory and Praxeology. :sb:
Sounds pretty dry :hihi:
It’s fascinating to me.
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Ceres » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:05 pm

evil primeval wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:02 pm
Ceres wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:04 pm
I think it’s a very tall order for Behringer to actually pull off something in the ballpark of the original Moog modular sound and reasonable quality at $50-$100 a module.
Have you looked at the schematics for the originals? The 921A a BOM cost under US$10 in hobbyist quantities. Same for the 911, 911A, and even the 904A--these are really simple circuits.
1 - You could say that about virtually any standard euro module. There aren’t fancy, expensive components in maths or 3-sisters or any Cwejman module for that matter. The bulk of the hardware expense is in the panels, pots and jacks

2 - You can’t buy exact replicas of many of the components used in the originals (transistors in particular). They simply aren’t made and haven’t been for decades. Sure there are modern equivalents/similar components but slightly different tolerances here there and everywhere are going to add up.

3 - Following the statement above, there are a lot of Moog VCF clones that are very mediocre, probably because judicious parts choices weren’t made along with adjustments to voltage values switching from original Moog power values to eurorack or other than Moog PSU values (and audio signal and voltage control values).

Maybe they will get all of this right and we will all be amazed. Maybe not.
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by EPTC » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:08 pm

peripatitis wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:00 pm
I am so excited for that Behringer system 55.
I hope Behringer's excellent offerings, stir the competition and other brands
lower their prices.
Definetely interested in the filterbank!
Just to reassert something about the fixed filter bank. The size of eurorack by itself prevents an authentic FFB from being available in that format. You need the inductors to each be about a half inch in diameter, per frequency, and these coils of wire interact with the sound itself, causing an electronic version of harmonic voicing. There's a chance if could be done if the back of the module was incredibly deep (think of a long horizontal card) - and absolutely not skiff ready.

The cost for inductors as separate parts are usually around $500 after all other components.

I think a lot of the circuits are possible in eurorack but 5U really does hold the format for fixed filter banks done accurately - which is why when the System 12 reissues came out people were genuinely interested.

To the best of my understanding, these coils are only available today through small handmade batches. And regardless of availability, I also have heard they can't be miniaturized:

Image

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by evil primeval » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:27 pm

Ceres wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:05 pm
evil primeval wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:02 pm
Ceres wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:04 pm
I think it’s a very tall order for Behringer to actually pull off something in the ballpark of the original Moog modular sound and reasonable quality at $50-$100 a module.
Have you looked at the schematics for the originals? The 921A a BOM cost under US$10 in hobbyist quantities. Same for the 911, 911A, and even the 904A--these are really simple circuits.
1 - You could say that about virtually any standard euro module. There aren’t fancy, expensive components in maths or 3-sisters or any Cwejman module for that matter. The bulk of the hardware expense is in the panels, pots and jacks
The bulk of the costs in low volume euro modules is the maker paying the rent and insane amounts of inefficient assembly, testing, and packing labor.

The actual BOM costs are almost a rounding error in many modules, especially at qty > 10k.
2 - You can’t buy exact replicas of many of the components used in the originals (transistors in particular). They simply aren’t made and haven’t been for decades. Sure there are modern equivalents/similar components but slightly different tolerances here there and everywhere are going to add up.
Yes you can.

2N3392, 2N4058 and 2N2925--which are the only transistors used in the 904A, 904B, 911, 912, etc--are all available in QTY > 1,000 from Mouser.

741 opamps are still around. Feel free to find a meaningful component in the System 55-era modules that is unobtanium. The 901 is another story, I looked into making some of those a while back.

Seriously, consult the service manual and you will come to the same conclusion.
3 - Following the statement above, there are a lot of Moog VCF clones that are very mediocre, probably because judicious parts choices weren’t made along with adjustments to voltage values switching from original Moog power values to eurorack or other than Moog PSU values (and audio signal and voltage control values).

Maybe they will get all of this right and we will all be amazed. Maybe not.
I'm guessing they just grabbed the schematics and ran with it since we see both S-trig and V-trig like the originals. They'd be crazy not to, especially after the success of doing just that with the Model D and (to a lesser but still significant extent) the Bro-One.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by b9 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:28 pm

EPTC wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:08 pm
peripatitis wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:00 pm
I am so excited for that Behringer system 55.
I hope Behringer's excellent offerings, stir the competition and other brands
lower their prices.
Definetely interested in the filterbank!
Just to reassert something about the fixed filter bank. The size of eurorack by itself prevents an authentic FFB from being available in that format. You need the inductors to each be about a half inch in diameter, per frequency, and these coils of wire interact with the sound itself, causing an electronic version of harmonic voicing. There's a chance if could be done if the back of the module was incredibly deep (think of a long horizontal card) - and absolutely not skiff ready.

The cost for inductors as separate parts are usually around $500 after all other components.

I think a lot of the circuits are possible in eurorack but 5U really does hold the format for fixed filter banks done accurately - which is why when the System 12 reissues came out people were genuinely interested.

To the best of my understanding, these coils are only available today through small handmade batches. And regardless of availability, I also have heard they can't be miniaturized:

Image
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by evil primeval » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:37 pm

Ugh, back to lurking. Musos talking about engineering and manufacturing hurts my head.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Severed head » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:56 pm

peripatitis wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:21 pm
helix wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:06 pm
galanter2 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:27 am
Because only the wealthy should be able to play a sawtooth wave with portamento?

:hihi: :hihi: :lol: :guinness:
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Muff McMuff » Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:07 pm

galanter2 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:56 pm
The Behringer module I’m most interested in is the fixed filter bank. Having used the original Moog design in the past, I think it does have a sound I’d prefer over others.

And pricing Eurorack fixed filter banks by other companies the lowest I’ve seen is the one from Doepfer for about $240. Several others (admittedly with extra features) are $400, $500, and more.

So if the Behringer modules really do cost $49 to $99, that’s the difference between me pulling the trigger and not.

But there is the sound-alike problem. The Moog Fixed Filter Bank circuit is simple, but it uses inductors, a part somewhat shunned in contemporary circuit designs. And the filters are not buffered from each other, so there are probably interaction effects.

So will Behringer’s really sound alike? Will they use inductors? We will see. I’ll buy one if it’s “close enough.”

Schematic:

http://electro-music.com/forum/phpbb-fi ... mo_528.gif
Yes the filter bank was the stand out for me out of all the modules. I am looking forward to the demos. Will it just be cheaper version of the A-128?

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by galanter2 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:03 am

Regarding the fixed filter bank...

This is at the edge of my electronics understanding, but it is possible to simulate inductors with other parts.

https://hackaday.com/2017/07/06/gyrator ... h-element/

Short of building a *very* deep module (skiff-unfriendly? skiff-hostile?) using inductor coils, this might be the way to use the original (surprisingly simple) circuit. Just substitute an op-amp, capacitor, and a couple resistors for each induction coil. The way the inductors are laid out in the original Moog fixed filter bank, I'm not sure there would be magnetic interaction with audible effect...but I really don't know. And since simulated inductors don't create a magnetic field, they would have zero magnetic interaction. So a possible source of an audible difference.

Ultimately the only way to know is to do side by side tests, both listening and test bench measurements.

peripatitis

Re: Behringer System 55

Post by peripatitis » Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:36 am

Ceres wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:05 pm
evil primeval wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:02 pm
Ceres wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:04 pm
I think it’s a very tall order for Behringer to actually pull off something in the ballpark of the original Moog modular sound and reasonable quality at $50-$100 a module.
Have you looked at the schematics for the originals? The 921A a BOM cost under US$10 in hobbyist quantities. Same for the 911, 911A, and even the 904A--these are really simple circuits.
1 - You could say that about virtually any standard euro module. There aren’t fancy, expensive components in maths or 3-sisters or any Cwejman module for that matter. The bulk of the hardware expense is in the panels, pots and jacks
You forgot about Rd. Designing circuits, coming up with ideas takes time = money and of course there is a significant risk involved if those designs don't take off. Also since you mentioned Cwejman, they do offer life time guaranty, which is also a cost.
But even if you are doing Diy you will find other costs. I am not sure the bom includes the encoders and switches foe example, probably there are more expensive than the circuit.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by bemushroomed » Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:51 am

Those modules having S-trig + 1.5v (is that confirmed?), i guess the idea here is to force customers to buy not just 1 or two modules in the series to mix it up with the euromodules you probably already have (VCA's, utility etc), they want people to buy a whole system of modules from them.

Not sure that is going to be more profitable though. I'm certainly not too interested in having stuff i would have to convert to work with my other euro modules. I bet a lot of n00bs are going to buy one or two modules and then wonder why the hell it doesn't work with their other euro modules, and then decide to get the rest to get a functional system lol

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by ObsoleteModular » Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:03 am

InsectInPixel wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:29 pm
ObsoleteModular wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:08 am
InsectInPixel wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:53 am
I'm pretty sure Uli Behringer studied Ludwig Von Mises' Austrian Economic Theory and Praxeology. :sb:
Sounds pretty dry :hihi:
It’s fascinating to me.
I’m sure it is, I was just being a twat, and I applaud you for reading material of academic and intellectual rigour. Jeez, in this day and age I applaud you for reading at all. I’m reading about the Russian cosmonists at the moment.

Eh anyway, back to synths!

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by 3hands » Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:04 am

ObsoleteModular wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:03 am
InsectInPixel wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:29 pm
ObsoleteModular wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:08 am
InsectInPixel wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:53 am
I'm pretty sure Uli Behringer studied Ludwig Von Mises' Austrian Economic Theory and Praxeology. :sb:
Sounds pretty dry :hihi:
It’s fascinating to me.
I’m sure it is, I was just being a twat, and I applaud you for reading material of academic and intellectual rigour. Jeez, in this day and age I applaud you for reading at all. I’m reading about the Russian cosmonists at the moment.

Eh anyway, back to synths!
More people need to read! I’m currently reading a fantastic book about the politics and economy of the Victorian era.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by cg_funk » Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:32 am

Funky40 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:13 pm
ahhh wait, i have it:
some people try to warn us that they might just use the same three Resistor values over and over again !
same for the caps: three values !..........has to do.
who would care for the sound, no ?


who knows, maybe thats where the cheap prices are coming from, who knows ?? :lol:
Damn this thread has been just one giant flame war! Ha ha.

But I think you hit on it right here. Does Behringer really just use 3 types of resistor, and 3 caps??!! Ha ha! I mean there are clearly some compromises made in these designs to make them what they are! Anyone claiming that a vintage Moog is the same thing as one of these cheap knockoffs doesn’t understand anything about tolerances in analogue circuits. When the tolerances are bad, then you get a situation where every module sounds different, maybe you get a lucky one... but maybe you get a crap one!

(.... wait a sec.. isn’t this the very problem with the QMMG?... :despair: )

What is clear to me is that there will never be a fully cheap replacement for the real-deal. Like Cwejman need never worry about losing market space to Behringer. It won’t happen, not possible.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by mbartkow » Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:43 am

galanter2 wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:03 am
Regarding the fixed filter bank...
This is at the edge of my electronics understanding, but it is possible to simulate inductors with other parts.
Gyrators only simulate the linear inductance and are one of the many methods to convert passive RLC filters to active structures. However, gyrators will never simulate the complex nonlinear effects of inductors with a solid core, related to magnetic residue (hysteresis). These effects are responsible to particular analog distortion in audio signals, and the associated sound, just like the sound of magnetic tape.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by suthnear » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:56 am

suthnear wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:10 am
Prunesquallor wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:08 am
Well, if this is the first fruit of the partnership between Behringer and Rob Keeble of AM Synths, the sound should be good at least. There's a new page on the AM Synths website and a hint on Facebook, but links are broken, unfortunately. I hope that's not a harbinger of production quality. :hihi:
Rob Keeble would surely be more likely to be involved with the Roland/ARP side of things, given his range of interests. And his post mentions superbooth so he may have had nothing to do with this release...
Yep: Behri have just released a video on their 2600 in which he features prominently...

And there's at least a suggestion there that he is bringing his expertise to modular as well

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Dcramer » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:13 am

I actually wish they’d done these in 5U, on the other hand if they don’t sound authentic maybe it will nudge Moog towards Euro? :party:
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Prunesquallor » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:28 am

suthnear wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:56 am
suthnear wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:10 am
Prunesquallor wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:08 am
Well, if this is the first fruit of the partnership between Behringer and Rob Keeble of AM Synths, the sound should be good at least. There's a new page on the AM Synths website and a hint on Facebook, but links are broken, unfortunately. I hope that's not a harbinger of production quality. :hihi:
Rob Keeble would surely be more likely to be involved with the Roland/ARP side of things, given his range of interests. And his post mentions superbooth so he may have had nothing to do with this release...
Yep: Behri have just released a video on their 2600 in which he features prominently...

And there's at least a suggestion there that he is bringing his expertise to modular as well
Yup, confirmed on Facebook. More details here:

https://amsynths.co.uk/home/behringer-p ... XyIrnEHDZM

Apparently, this is the first of three projects he's involved with:

"Project 1 This analog synth will be announced by Behringer at NAMM 2020 and will be demonstrated at SuperBooth 2020.

Project 2 This analog synth is in development, schematics are complete and an initial prototype is due to be assessed in 1Q2020.

Project 3 This analog synth is in development with some prototype circuits working and some being fixed."

Anyway, back to your regular System 55 programming...
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Medici » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:31 am

EATyourGUITAR wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:27 am
the brushed panels look like a hack job with a belt sander
I mean, what do you expect for $50-$99 lol.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by EATyourGUITAR » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:47 am

bemushroomed wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:51 am
Those modules having S-trig + 1.5v (is that confirmed?), i guess the idea here is to force customers to buy not just 1 or two modules in the series to mix it up with the euromodules you probably already have (VCA's, utility etc), they want people to buy a whole system of modules from them.

Not sure that is going to be more profitable though. I'm certainly not too interested in having stuff i would have to convert to work with my other euro modules. I bet a lot of n00bs are going to buy one or two modules and then wonder why the hell it doesn't work with their other euro modules, and then decide to get the rest to get a functional system lol
not a problem. there are strig converters in eurorack. disting will do it. maths will do it. doepfer will do it. no worries.
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Ricochet » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:48 am

bemushroomed wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:51 am
Those modules having S-trig + 1.5v (is that confirmed?), i guess the idea here is to force customers to buy not just 1 or two modules in the series to mix it up with the euromodules you probably already have (VCA's, utility etc), they want people to buy a whole system of modules from them.
Yes, and this is definitely an exclusion criterion for using the modules in parallel with other EUROs. :bang:

For me it is anyway ... as cool as the modules may look :despair:
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by huffnPuff » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:59 am

EATyourGUITAR wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:47 am
bemushroomed wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:51 am
Those modules having S-trig + 1.5v (is that confirmed?), i guess the idea here is to force customers to buy not just 1 or two modules in the series to mix it up with the euromodules you probably already have (VCA's, utility etc), they want people to buy a whole system of modules from them.

Not sure that is going to be more profitable though. I'm certainly not too interested in having stuff i would have to convert to work with my other euro modules. I bet a lot of n00bs are going to buy one or two modules and then wonder why the hell it doesn't work with their other euro modules, and then decide to get the rest to get a functional system lol
not a problem. there are strig converters in eurorack. disting will do it. maths will do it. doepfer will do it. no worries.
A logic inverter (NOT gate) will do it.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by bemushroomed » Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:18 pm

EATyourGUITAR wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:47 am

not a problem. there are strig converters in eurorack. disting will do it. maths will do it. doepfer will do it. no worries.
Sure, and how fun that would be.. and how expensive that would get quite fast - to have to use one extra converter module per Behringer module.

Like modular isn't messy (and expensive) as it is. no thanks.. if you look at it that way their modules gets really expensive too.. sure, you can probably get a module that can convert several of them, but still, it will get messy.

Also you will have to convert 1.5v to the standard, doesnt sound fun for e.g VCO's, they'll be out of tune i guess and you have to both mess with levels + calibrate for their standard and then back again if you dont want to use their module. im not sure this is confirmed or if its "just" S-trig. Seems weird if they would only go halfway in though, doesnt make sense.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by coolshirtdotjpg » Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:29 pm

I honestly think that behringer's analog synth thing is more of a ploy to get music nerds (who are primarilly the people ordering equipment for venues, universities and other institutions) to not go "ewww behringer" next time they order a console. And honestly it's worked. Despite the comments online, having used a behringer model d, neutron and vc-240, they are solidly manufactured instruments that work great and are really well-built. I seriously doubt these instruments are raking in tons of cash for them--although I'm sure they are making a profit--but in a few years when folks like myself are put in charge of buying 64 channel mixing consoles, or other expensive audio infrastructure for the places we work for, we aren't going to have the same gut reaction that people a bit older than us did to behringer.

Also every thread about behringer is filled with fools who think there is such a thing as ethical consumption under capitalism, or that moog PCBs are not made in china, and you really need to disabuse yourself of that nonsense. Can't wait for snarky uninformed replies from the usual suspects!
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