Behringer System 55

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DJMaytag
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by DJMaytag » Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:34 pm

EPTC wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:38 am
I'll say this - I know this is likely not final form, but the sounds that start at :33 of this video are thinner sounding than five sheets of dried pasta.

FULL RESONANCE SOUNDS BAD :doh:
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by blw » Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:50 pm

Until I hear something that sounds better, I’d suggest buying a set of basic Dotcom modules over these. Most of their basics are also about $50-100, except for the vco ($200) and filters ($130-180), the system sounds better, and you gain the true advantage of the Moog format, a spacious, playable interface. The big caveat is that the cases and power add a lot to the cost, but just the idea of them sorta being in the same ballpark would kill this for me. Worth a bit of a premium for something better, and I say that while acknowledging Dotcom isn’t the end all be all. Just a nice value option.

Biases: Love/own some Dotcom, think this demo is crap

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SynthBaron » Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:30 pm

DJMaytag wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:34 pm
EPTC wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:38 am
I'll say this - I know this is likely not final form, but the sounds that start at :33 of this video are thinner sounding than five sheets of dried pasta.

FULL RESONANCE SOUNDS BAD :doh:
It's probably because he's overdriving the filter by using the auxiliary variable output of a 921, which is meant more for modulation usage instead of audio and has 3x hotter of a signal level than a normal output.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SynthBaron » Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:46 pm

pelang wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:36 pm
EPTC wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:48 pm
pelang wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:48 pm
from the AJH website:
For the FFB 914 we have used Gyrator based active inductor circuitry which exactly replicates the vintage passive inductor / capacitor based filter design - this is an important design element, because a major difference between the two topologies is that the phase change versus frequency is lower with L/C filters compared to Sallen Key R/C filters.
I'm not sure if you're quoting to agree or refute that AJH aren't using actual wound coil inductors.

AJH makes great sounding stuff - but just for discussion, gyrators are described here as "simulated inductors": https://sound-au.com/articles/gyrator-filters.htm - I'm confident a basic sound can get close, in the same way Verbos' bark filter gets very close to the sound, but curious if a gyrator can overload and saturate like an electromagnetic coil.
no, they don't use coils, of course. I was quoting from there website, as they don't claim they use actually coil inductors.
Btw: I do have a serge ResEQ, the Döpfer A128 Fixed filter bank and the FFB 914 which sounds best to my ears. But i can't compare it with a org. moog
I've had a 907, and the FFB 914 has that same nice weird resonancy shimmering quality to it.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:37 pm

DJMaytag wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:18 pm
ablearcher wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:15 pm
wait wait, back up a sec, someone mentioned it but lets go back to it...
Why the hell Are they bringing S-trig to eurorack??
Because that's what the Moog 55 used, and that's what the schematics were. Transistors were expensive then, so S-trig was a cheaper way to do it. Now Uli gets to make more profit because he can shave a penny or two off each module that uses an S-trig input/output.
Disagree. Strig is a natural OR, and meant foot pedals and other controllers only needed a switch to ground. It wasn't about the transistor cost. 2500 also used Strig for Pedal sustain on its EGs. For the same reasons.

One thing that gets lost in the Bob Moog legacy is how much he was a fan of alternative controllers. Perhaps coming from theremins is why, but things like the early footpedals, joystick, ribbon controllers, drums, and the touch panels of his later synths should not be forgotten. Along with the entirely free bus -for individual use of the kbd contacts- on the earliest KBDs. We tend to think buchla for no KBD, but BobM was also into *much* more than 12tone octaves!

Again will point out that Behringer is including the module to translate, and doing the translation is as you say, one cheap transistor. Will be surprised if no one makes an add-on converter of at last one of the types described in my earlier post in this thread.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by MindMachine » Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:46 pm

Nice video. Doesn't sound anything like any Moog ever, to my ears. Doesn't offer anything I can see that is not already offered over and over. For budget modular EMW, Ladik, Analog Solutions (what is available) and a little more, Doepfer are much more sonically (from the demo). The 906 clone, if it works proper, will be a boon to Euro.
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Ceres » Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:20 pm

It’s certainly worth considering how basic these modules are. That’s why for me it will come down to the sound. Even at $100 each, these lack a lot of standard modern functionality and would require 2-3 modules to have similar functionality.

Take the AJH minimod VCF for comparison. It has a built-in audio mixer with attenuation for each input as well as CV attenuation for both frequency and emphasis (regeneration/resonance) inputs. To duplicate most of this in Behringer 55 would take at least 3 modules (VCF, Mixer and Attenuator) and you still would not have CV control over resonance (and you never will). Nor the individually offset CV inputs (Need another attenuator module for that). Getting the similar functionality in Boog might cost just as much and take up a lot more real estate than those “expensive” AJH modules.
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by seta666 » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:31 pm

At the beginning I was pretty excited with the announcement but after doing some research I think I will pass.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by seta666 » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:32 pm

At the beginning I was pretty excited with this Moog system clone announcement but after doing some research I think I will pass.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by moremagic » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:34 pm

Ceres wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:20 pm
It’s certainly worth considering how basic these modules are. That’s why for me it will come down to the sound. Even at $100 each, these lack a lot of standard modern functionality and would require 2-3 modules to have similar functionality.

Take the AJH minimod VCF for comparison. It has a built-in audio mixer with attenuation for each input as well as CV attenuation for both frequency and emphasis (regeneration/resonance) inputs. To duplicate most of this in Behringer 55 would take at least 3 modules (VCF, Mixer and Attenuator) and you still would not have CV control over resonance (and you never will). Nor the individually offset CV inputs (Need another attenuator module for that). Getting the similar functionality in Boog might cost just as much and take up a lot more real estate than those “expensive” AJH modules.
you can get voltage control of resonance with a mixer and a vca ;)

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Ceres » Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:19 pm

moremagic wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:34 pm
Ceres wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:20 pm
It’s certainly worth considering how basic these modules are. That’s why for me it will come down to the sound. Even at $100 each, these lack a lot of standard modern functionality and would require 2-3 modules to have similar functionality.

Take the AJH minimod VCF for comparison. It has a built-in audio mixer with attenuation for each input as well as CV attenuation for both frequency and emphasis (regeneration/resonance) inputs. To duplicate most of this in Behringer 55 would take at least 3 modules (VCF, Mixer and Attenuator) and you still would not have CV control over resonance (and you never will). Nor the individually offset CV inputs (Need another attenuator module for that). Getting the similar functionality in Boog might cost just as much and take up a lot more real estate than those “expensive” AJH modules.
you can get voltage control of resonance with a mixer and a vca ;)
Technically, yes you are right, you can get VC resonance by feeding back an output into an input (although depending on filter topology and how resonance was implemented and the modules you are using, it might not sound the same). So let’s add 2 more behringer modules you’ll need to get the capabilities of the AJH, now we are up to 5-6. :tu:
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by galanter2 » Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:54 pm

If Behringer hadn’t duplicated things like S-Triggers and simple (non-mixer) inputs and the need for filter couplers and had added oscillator features, etc....then people would be complaining that the Behringer modules were inauthentic, and their attempt to "improve" the original in fact diminished the Moog sound.

The direction they took (pending the opinions of a thousand golden ears) offers the Moog modular experience, for all that is good and bad about it.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:35 pm

galanter2 wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:54 pm
If Behringer hadn’t duplicated things like S-Triggers and simple (non-mixer) inputs and the need for filter couplers and had added oscillator features, etc....then people would be complaining that the Behringer modules were inauthentic, and their attempt to "improve" the original in fact diminished the Moog sound.

The direction they took (pending the opinions of a thousand golden ears) offers the Moog modular experience, for all that is good and bad about it.
Agree. Will add this snippet of something I just posted in another thread, since it directly applies to this thread and its current line of thought.

Agree that B fills a hole, and would say that it won't actually matter how far it is from a real 55/2600, as long as it sounds 'good'. That being judged by the intended buyers. We make a mistake when we think that Behringer has to hit the sound correctly with their cheap clones. They only have to be in the same general sound vein. Think of Harbor Freight tools versus Husky-the modern fill-in for once legendary Craftsman versus Snap-on, Proto or Matco. No one expects the HF tools to be fine, but they'll be good enough for their price. And that's the same as Behringer. At least for the lower tier of their offerings. We've yet to see how they'll do with more expensive things like the UBXa, BS-80, etc. They got close enough with the D, that they've now got cred -which we can see as many of the offerings since have not been as close as the D. Again this is *not* based on what any experts might say or believe. Because they aren't the target anyways.

Just as those using Snap-on tools don't affect buyers at Harbor Freight or Home Depot. Uli knows *his* market -or lane- *very* well and so far hasn't strayed from it. So we're the ones missing the point by expecting him to do something he has no need to really do. And just like the pro *will* buy something less expensiveat times for some specific reason, some who know the sounds misses the mark will still buy, and these are just icing on the cake for Uli's bottom line.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by evil primeval » Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:26 pm

Nevermind :deadbanana:

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Ceres » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:25 am

Looks like the first module is available.

CP3A-O

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https://www.behringer.com/Categories/Be ... ans(en|en)
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:42 am

992 should be next, lol!

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:52 am

KSS wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:35 pm
Just as those using Snap-on tools don't affect buyers at Harbor Freight or Home Depot. Uli knows *his* market -or lane- *very* well and so far hasn't strayed from it. So we're the ones missing the point by expecting him to do something he has no need to really do. And just like the pro *will* buy something less expensiveat times for some specific reason, some who know the sounds misses the mark will still buy, and these are just icing on the cake for Uli's bottom line.

Good analysis. I'm in it for an analog modeling path, with a consistent panel design, based on a working modular system; the 55. Then I'll add mutable instruments modules for the non-analog sound I'm looking for. Very impressed with the Prologue 16 and MI oscillators, and want to build a more powerful instance of the two, in monophonic, as a first step into eurorack.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by pedroflute » Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:28 am

carynrich wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:21 am

Last, to the people who keep asking for a filter coupler, the 55 doesn’t have one. They’re on the IIIc. Yes, they should release the 901’s and a 904-c (if you’re reading this behringer)
The original System 55 did not have 901 VCOs either, but 921s, yet you are suggesting them... I just asked for the Filter coupler becaue they asked for ideas & the Filter coupler is a great sonic element [I ordered an extra COTB cabinet to complement my Moog15-like system with them three filters after working with Hans Zimmer's borrowed --BOTH IIIC & System 55-- in my home for three months]... Huge sonic goodness!!

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:09 pm

I would like the 904C filter coupler too. Simplifies my favorite filter - notch.
Also, would like to see the 912 Envelope Follower, and the 928 S+H/Glide.
I know there are alternatives from other vendors, but for completeness, I prefer they all have the same look and feel.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by black_label » Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:35 pm

I’m just waiting for the 960. Too bad I’ll have to use the v-trig to s-trig module to use it but still. I’ve been wanting something to approximate the 960 in euro for a while.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:27 pm

Maybe I'm wrong but, I thought the only Behringer produced Moog modules that dealt with S-trig were the 911, 911A, and 961? Oh, and 912, but behringer hasn't announced a module like that yet.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Bob Borries » Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:51 pm

The most powerful threesome in filter world is the Moog filter system, 3 Modules, a Lowpass Filter, (904A), Highpass filter (904B) and Coupler (904C). What is a Coupler? It’s the module in the middle that guides the signal path between the two filters, It make bandpass, notch and phaser sounds possible, but with a twist, You can control the bandwidth under voltage control. The Coupler basically turns two filters into the most amazing variable filter ever made in synth history. It provided us with the most creative use of synth sounds patched by the synth masters.
Image
How can Behringer sell the legendary Moog System 55 without the 904C Filter Coupler Module? This one module of the filter trilogy can’t exist without the other. It’s at the heart of what makes the Moog 55 so special. No other filter can sound as good or have as many timbral variances, it truly separates itself from the crowed pack of other analog filters.

How does it work? It connects the Lowpass and Highpass filter together and allows you to manage the routing through a serial (Bandpass) or parallel (Band reject) switch or OFF when using the filters without the Coupler. When switched on don’t connect envelope CV to the Lowpass or Highpass and set the Lowpass cutoff to +6 and range of 2, the Highpass cutoff to -1 and “Low” frequency range. The Coupler now takes over control of both of them. Through the Coupler you can now modulate the Center frequency and bandwidth of the filters.

Lots of modular tricks can be patched with this trio, injecting the fixed filter bank into the signal path or feed backing the whole thing to get the most amazing resonances you’ve ever heard.
Image
Who used it? Tomita, Keith Emerson, Wendy Carlos. The Beatles, David Bowie, Vince Clarke. Patrick Gleeson, Giorgio Moroder, Stevie Wonder, Suzanne Ciani, Malcolm Cecil, David Borden, Dick Hyman, Herb Deutsch, Holy Ghost!, Gavin Russom, Max Ravitz, Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith, Jacques Greene, M. Geddes Gengras, Tim Blake, Christopher Franke, Edgar Froese, Micky Dolenz, Klaus Schulze, Mark Shreeve, Eric Siday, Klaus Wunderlich. All had this filter trinity in they’re modular. How can you omit this module that it so prevalent in all of the most famous synth players in all time?

I hope Behringer includes the Filter Coupler Module in the Moog 55 line up.
Image

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Fri Mar 13, 2020 9:25 am

Bob Borries wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:51 pm
I hope Behringer includes the Filter Coupler Module in the Moog 55 line up.
+1K :tu: Really dumb move by them -from a legacy sound standpoint. The multi-pole switch does make the coupler a more difficult clone target. I posted a solution Behringer could easily implement somewhere on this forum. Couldn't agree more how much is lost with this module missing.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by galanter2 » Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:32 pm

Center Frequency - send same voltage source to Freq CV in of both
Bandwidth - send voltage to one Freq CV in, same inverted voltage to the other Freq CV in
Notch Pass vs Band Pass - individual settings of Freq knobs

Does this really require its own module?

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:22 pm

galanter2 wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:32 pm
Does this really require its own module?
Go ahead and patch up your solution, providing the same flexibility and speed as this module. Once you do that, it would be a nice comparison to share so others can see how they feel about one versus the other solution. It's all up to personal preference after all isn't it?

There are many modules which may not be "required", but which provide means to easily and accurately accomplish tasks which could be accomplished without them.

Who needs a keyboard if you've got a ribbon controller?

Probably helps in that case to be sduck. ;)

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