Behringer System 55

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by coolshirtdotjpg » Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:06 pm

KSS wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:22 pm
galanter2 wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:32 pm
Does this really require its own module?
Go ahead and patch up your solution, providing the same flexibility and speed as this module. Once you do that, it would be a nice comparison to share so others can see how they feel about one versus the other solution. It's all up to personal preference after all isn't it?

There are many modules which may not be "required", but which provide means to easily and accurately accomplish tasks which could be accomplished without them.

Who needs a keyboard if you've got a ribbon controller?

Probably helps in that case to be sduck. ;)
I think the point here is that those are commonly available modules in eurorack that most folks probably already have. It probably won't change the "sound" much since all the functionality can be easily replicated. I do think B should make the module to satisfy folks like you. Hell, if they wanted to get creative (they don't) they could just make a state variable filter including those circuits that does that.
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:18 pm

coolshirtdotjpg wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:06 pm
I think the point here is that those are commonly available modules in eurorack that most folks probably already have.
That's a valid point. But different from the one I'm making here -and in many other posts in the forum- which is that the user interface matters. Had thought the ribbon vs KBD analogy would make that clear. Synth joy and success is not only about being *able* to do something. it's also about how readily or easily or repeatably that thing is done. And how the controls react as you do so.
It probably won't change the "sound" much since all the functionality can be easily replicated.
This again assumes the 'sound' is only a function of available electronic resources. More often than not, that's not the case.

We patch certain ways and turn certain knobs and switch certain switches because they're where they are in the user interface, and because they work the way they do. Here's an example: Nearly every VCF has a resonance knob. But the result of that knob being turned -even when the circuit behind the panel is the same- may not be at all the same. Some kick into self-osc sooner, some later. The curve or linearity of their response changes how we experience the sound, and how we interact to develop it. Some smoothly 'slide' naturally from no resonance all the way to self osc. Others have dead spots and breaks or jumps along the way.

A second example that everybody 'feels' and many don't seem to understand is the effect of turning an A,D,R knob on an envelope generator. Moog ordered special pot tapers for the 911's, and when you use a vintage moog modular you very quickly understand why. Especially if you compare it to another MU clone 911. People go crazy talking about "snappy" envelopes thinkng it's only about speed of attack. Leaving out shape of response of the knob or slider.

And in the case of the 904C module a similar situation is presented. You might be able to patch in your mixer-attenuator and switch module(s) to duplicate its labeled function. But you'll probably not match its sonic feel and effect. FWIW, Behringer probably won't get this right even if they do clone it, but that's not the point. The point is that some of the mojo or magic of many classic synths has less to do with their circuits, components and historical use than it does to the details of their operator interface. And that interface is both the physical layout anddetails like range and taper of controls

SH101 gets much of its popularity because the ranges and action of its sliders make sense. By this I mean the sweet spots are where they 'should' be, and the range also. Same can be said for the 2600. We relate to these kinds of differences by liking or disliking the use of a given synth. it's eminently personal. But what we're often relating to is not the available circuit; but rather how it is 'presented' to us. How its controls work with the circuit on a very detailed level.
I do think B should make the module to satisfy folks like you.
I don't need them to do it for me. I've had plenty of time on the OG synths. I want them to do it for people like 'you' who may not have ever experienced one very real reason these classics are -in some or many cases- revered.

That's why I'm truly hoping galanter2 takes up the request to actually flesh out the actual patch he would use to duplicate the 904C. One, because it's easy to say, well just patch this and that and it'll be the same than it is to actually see how it looks and works compared to the module being replicated for function. Two, because sharing that visually lets others see the reality, instead of only the suggestion.

Look at the 904C circuit in the moog modular service manual. it's not quite so simple as it seems from the panel. That three position switch has 9 poles on five decks. During a performance on a 55, you can flip that switch and adjust a couple knobs and have a massive change in the sound. I'd like to see how that plays out in the 'duplicated' non-904C version.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by snevlida14 » Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:52 pm

Just saw the new design. The case looks like a mantis.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:00 am

KSS wrote: I don't need them to do it for me. I've had plenty of time on the OG synths. I want them to do it for people like 'you' who may not have ever experienced one very real reason these classics are -in some or many cases- revered.
This is exactly what finally brought me to eurorack; the 'promise' of a well thought out, enduring UI for a classic instrument - assuming they implement enough of it. I'm not concerned at all with authentic sound as long as I can make music with it (as a core set of modules), it's a synthesizer, I expect to work at it until I get what I want. It's a tool for creation. So create.

Thank you @KSS and @Bob Borries for articulating it so well.
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Xtheunknown » Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:58 am

Any updates on individual module price and availability?

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by MutantLabs » Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:26 am

Xtheunknown wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:58 am
Any updates on individual module price and availability?
According to Thomann.de, first modules (Moog and Roland) should be available in 7-8 weeks. These are only a limited set of all modules and seem to be mostly (not all) "utilitarian" in nature.

Most modules are pretty wide, hence the 140 HP Behringer Go case...

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Mr. Aloud » Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:51 am

The Vapourack Go.
(Yes, I´m impatient.)
It would seem that still, after all these years, perception is essentially thought to be a passive process.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Bob Borries » Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:39 pm

How to patch a bank of 3 Slave VCO Modules (921B) to the Master VCO Controller (921A), Moog had these connections hidden from the front panel, but Behringer brought them front and center. It's an interesting way to manage your sound source, using sync and mixing different waveforms give you a lot of variety as opposed to having just one VCO module.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:20 am

Bob Borries wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:39 pm
It's an interesting way to manage your sound source, using sync and mixing different waveforms give you a lot of variety as opposed to having just one VCO module.
Yes. A point missed in some of the newer attempts to re-create vintage sounds.

Really nice graphics work! Hadn't seen your other manuals before reading this post, and following the link in your sig. Looks like a labor of love.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Bob Borries » Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:57 am

KSS wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:20 am
Bob Borries wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:39 pm
It's an interesting way to manage your sound source, using sync and mixing different waveforms give you a lot of variety as opposed to having just one VCO module.
Yes. A point missed in some of the newer attempts to re-create vintage sounds.

Really nice graphics work! Hadn't seen your other manuals before reading this post, and following the link in your sig. Looks like a labor of love.
Yes it is a labor of love, Thank you, I love synths

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by co87lab » Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:40 am

How many people here will be buying a full Behringer System 55?

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by DSC » Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:31 am

co87lab wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:40 am
How many people here will be buying a full Behringer System 55?
I will be buying a USED System 55 when someone gets tired of theirs :tu:

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by black_label » Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:04 pm

I can’t imagine going all-in with it. Most of the modules have competition that’s more functional in fewer hp. But for the prices, I’ll probably pick up a few modules here and there.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by ishi » Fri May 08, 2020 10:16 pm

I built a preliminary System 55 with the first 6 available modules.

I found some problems with the 923 filters (manual LP/HP). Just before fully opening the LP, there's a sudden jump in cut-off frequency to full open. Also, there seems to be some weird wobbling/fluctuating of the sound before this jump. I noticed it first with the LP, but the HP seems to have the same problem. It also has the weird jump (and fluctuating), but at about the same knob positon as the LP, so just before almost closing (at the 10khz cutoff freq). In comparison, the Mos-Lab 923 doesn't exhibit this and smoothly opens (LP) and closes (HP). I will investigate furter, but probably will return it and try another one.

1 out of 5 envelope generators (911) doesn't work. There seems to be a bit of variation in their ADSR-settings (calibration?), but overall the 4 ones that work do perform well. But.. while inspecting and comparing these 911's, I noticed something weird on the PCB of one of the working 911's. A group of components was covered in a big dot of leftover flux.. there was some metal dirt sticking to it.. I could remove it with a tweezer. Seems pretty sloppy. Also the SMD-soldering was.. uhm, well let's say I do a better job soldering SMD by hand.

On the plus side: all VCA's (902) and mixers (CP3A-M) do work and sound really nice!

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Fri May 08, 2020 10:56 pm

ishi wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 10:16 pm
I built a preliminary System 55 with the first 6 available modules.
Thank you for the report. Didn't realize these were already out in the wild. Also glad to see you have mos-lab for direct comparison.
and mixers (CP3A-M) do work and sound really nice!
Glad the VCAs get a plus report. Too bad they've done CP3A mixer. That's a typical opamp mixer. CP3 is discrete.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SynthBaron » Sat May 09, 2020 10:31 am

From what I've read over the years, Behringer to have enough bugs to work out of the first couple production batches that it's best to wait a while until they get it right. But that goes for a lot of other companies too...

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by ishi » Sat May 09, 2020 3:16 pm

KSS wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 10:56 pm
Too bad they've done CP3A mixer. That's a typical opamp mixer. CP3 is discrete.
Signal path of the Behringer mixer is totally discreet. No IC's used and only passive attenuators.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Sat May 09, 2020 11:29 pm

ishi wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 3:16 pm
KSS wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 10:56 pm
Too bad they've done CP3A mixer. That's a typical opamp mixer. CP3 is discrete.
Signal path of the Behringer mixer is totally discreet. No IC's used and only passive attenuators.
Would love to see some B55 module PCB pics.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SynthBaron » Sun May 10, 2020 12:47 pm

ishi wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 3:16 pm
KSS wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 10:56 pm
Too bad they've done CP3A mixer. That's a typical opamp mixer. CP3 is discrete.
Signal path of the Behringer mixer is totally discreet. No IC's used and only passive attenuators.
Then it's not a System 55 clone as they claim, since they only ever had the CP3A mixers. They can't get their story straight with this "replica" business, lol...

They definitely had op-amps in them:

Code: Select all

https://modularsynthesis.com/moog/cpanels/cp3a_open.jpg
cp3a_open.jpg
https://modularsynthesis.com/moog/cpanels/cpanels55.htm

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by ishi » Mon May 11, 2020 12:37 pm

While probing the Behringer modulars and especially looking at the EG's, I noticed one of my 2 MosLab EG's totally messes up its timings and voltage rates. Have to contact Seb about that.

I also put the 4 working Behringer 911 EG's under the scope and they are pretty consistently calibrated. Well done Berhinger!

Knob settings: T1=1s, T2=1s, T3 (release) = 4s and Sus=7
DS1Z_QuickPrint8.png

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Mon May 11, 2020 7:22 pm

Are they analog or digital? Behringer really likes digital EGs.

Still hoping you'll share some PCB pics of your modules.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by ishi » Wed May 13, 2020 9:45 am

SynthBaron wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 12:47 pm
Then it's not a System 55 clone as they claim, since they only ever had the CP3A mixers. They can't get their story straight with this "replica" business, lol...
Guess they're following the Moog reissue of System IIIp. Sort of. I read at the Moog sales page:

"IIIp has a 100% discrete design. There are absolutely no op-amps - not the case in the Model 15, System 35 or System 55."

Would love to see a Behringer 901.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by ishi » Wed May 13, 2020 9:46 am

KSS wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 7:22 pm
Are they analog or digital? Behringer really likes digital EGs.

Still hoping you'll share some PCB pics of your modules.
Absolutely analog. Will post photos of PCB later.

I recalibrated my Mos-Lab EG's with help of the Moog System 55 service manual. Too bad on one of them the trimmer doesn't get the base output level to 0V anymore, which results in distorted envelopes. Hope I can get it right somehow.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Ebotronix » Wed May 13, 2020 10:54 am

how to get portamento / glide with the System 55?
is there a spetial module for this function?

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Wed May 13, 2020 6:32 pm

Portamento-glide is a function of the 95x keyboards.

Outside of moog-based answers are many different slew modules which would take the place of the keyboard function. Everything from simple slews to more complicated versions like DUSG and MATHS.

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