Behringer System 55

Cwejman, Livewire, TipTop Audio, Doepfer etc... Get your euro on!

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Sun May 17, 2020 11:30 pm

SkyWriter wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 2:07 pm
KSS wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 8:14 pm
Bob himself was far more 'West coast' than generally assumed. Big fan of inputs-controllers besides keyboards too.
I bet all those guys would be euro-junkies today!
Bob was alive during Eurorack. Fewer mfrs back then, but still very much a growing thing. He didn't really embrace it. Wasn't opposed, he loved synths.
So, what's a good stain for pine for my case? :-)
Dark Walnut is the obvious choice. There's something ironically poetic about a fake moog in a fake walnut case.
Is it too gauche to post modulargrid plans?
Speaking only for one, I'd rather that happened in a separate thread if at all.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Mon May 18, 2020 8:11 am

KSS wrote: Bob was alive during Eurorack. Fewer mfrs back then, but still very much a growing thing. He didn't really embrace it. Wasn't opposed, he loved synths.
Yeah, I didn't think it through, of course he knew eurorack.
Dark Walnut is the obvious choice. There's something ironically poetic about a fake moog in a fake walnut case.
:-) I'm bad enough with wood not to want to make a mess of it unnecessarily. I wanted to stack some cases together in a one or two frame console. It will be a stand alone analog/physical modeling system. I really got to love the software in Mutable Rings, Plaits, and Elements from the port to Korg Prologue. So much so, with the moog modular clone I figured I would put one together - small plain modules that all match each other. I know that's somewhat antithetical to the scene, but I'm OCD about somethings. This instrument will sit in my bedroom with the Prologue and Kronos. I always wanted to get back in to modular, I was a PAIA-kid, the big stuff was too expensive, and the smaller stuff just didn't seem to catch my 'fancy'?

I've seen some concerns about manufacturing defects, and a few circuit inconsistencies. It's not the best time to release a product like moog modular, in the middle of a pandemic. Many, many moving parts in a multi product offering in a new tooling-up effort - this their first eurorack effort - things alway screwup.

The defects look like process issues with rework. I would first assume to be a pick and place error (wrong tube loaded). Process issues get fixed. By the time I'm ready to buy, I don't expect issues I can't fix on my own (yeah, I have an SMT soldering station :0)). Maybe a solder stencil was wrong. I don't see anything fatal to the product.

I've gone through the system 55 wiring diagram to identify the normal routing. The oscillator, filter and VCA/EG sections all have some routing module with features addressing either the multi-controller switching for oscillators and filters, and configurations for dynamics . The trunk lines to the console panels would be good to have for bringing outside signals over robust connectors to back, then send to the front of the instrument. So, It there anything normaled in the 960, 961, and sequential switch? I would like to put all this normaling into my packaging as well. It's those types of features that make a 55 a system, rather than an assembly of modules, and that's why I focused on this, rather than a small 1/8 of the size case of quad modules that would do that stated job of mixed analog/physical modeling.

This is one of my (many) favorite (moog) pages: https://modularsynthesis.com/moog/syst ... stem55.htm
Is it too gauche to post modulargrid plans?
Speaking only for one, I'd rather that happened in a separate thread if at all.
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by mnchrme » Mon May 18, 2020 12:00 pm

Could someone point me the right direction (GAS/eurocrack rehab) because these modules are serious trigger for my compulsive GAS disorder. I have no idea how good these are or might be if someone already got these shipped and tried them in person but the case itself looks like a decent quality/value for the money + VCA/VCF/gate & multiple modules are a no brainer for sure. Very neat price point & I doubt there will be major differences in quality as eurorack stuff is mostly China and cheap parts anyway.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Mon May 18, 2020 12:45 pm

Some few folks getting early ships from thomann are posting observations on their new modules. The rest of us will watch and wait.
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Ebotronix » Mon May 18, 2020 5:33 pm

I miss some moduls:
905 spring reverb
956 ribbon controller,
959 joystick controller
1125 sample and hold
1630 Bode frequency shifter
6401 Bode ring modulator
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by ishi » Mon May 18, 2020 6:40 pm

Ceres wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 10:48 am
Are these modules built for the lower 1.5v audio levels like the original? Just curious if the VCAs, mixers, VCF are a good fit for modern eurorack levels.
I just added the official spec sheets with impedances and in/out voltage ranges etc. You might want to take a look at them:

http://sonectron.nl/?page_id=23

More modules on their way. 121 Dual VCF (System 100m) & 995 Attenuators (System 55).

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by mnchrme » Tue May 19, 2020 4:51 am

SkyWriter wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 12:45 pm
Some few folks getting early ships from thomann are posting observations on their new modules. The rest of us will watch and wait.
I will pull the trigger this or next week. Still got a really huge shopping list to do :foul:. Cold Mac/Mangrove (if I could find someone who would be willing to part with one, what a cool VCO) + Divkid Ochd (hopefully it won't be sold out when I order as I will be invoicing my clients later this week) + A-107 / A-113 + QPAS.

I was thinking about getting - Eurorack Go case for my leftover modules and then fill it up a little bit with 173 QUAD SIGNAL GATE/ PATCH BAY, 121 DUAL VCF, 923, 902 and 995. Will let you know how they are in comparison to other modules.

One thing to consider is that Eurorack Go offers different depth on both rows. 3000 mA on the other hand seems like enough power for a standalone space station dedicated to some extras or modulation/source/processing.

Although it might be worth a little wait before Boog gets their manufacturing process right so you don't end up with a faulty one.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Thu May 21, 2020 8:17 am

Ebotronix wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 5:33 pm
I miss some moduls:
905 spring reverb
956 ribbon controller,
959 joystick controller
1125 sample and hold
1630 Bode frequency shifter
6401 Bode ring modulator
Don't forget 912 envelope follower, and 928 S+H/Glide. Those Bodes are nice too. I have them in SW on my Prologue.
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by EPTC » Fri May 22, 2020 2:12 pm

Noticing the resistance is starting to crumble on these things. Even Noisebug is carrying them. So I should ask: How's the filter and other modules?

I don't expect myself to get one but some gaffer tape to cover up the logo and a cardboard box and I might make a micro model 15.
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by ishi » Mon May 25, 2020 5:43 pm

Today the replacement 923 filters came in. I didn't have too much time to do testing. Unfortunately it didn't sound good. Problem with the HP-filter is about the same compared to the first one. Jump/wobble with the LP-filter is worse. There's not only this behaviour when initially closing the filter from full open, but also on some spots when further closing.

By accident, there's another one sent to me, so I'll get the opportunity to test a third one.

Fingers crossed, or as we use to say: "driemaal scheepsrecht?"

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Mon May 25, 2020 10:04 pm

ishi wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 5:43 pm
Today the replacement 923 filters came in. I didn't have too much time to do testing. Unfortunately it didn't sound good. Problem with the HP-filter is about the same compared to the first one. Jump/wobble with the LP-filter is worse. There's not only this behaviour when initially closing the filter from full open, but also on some spots when further closing.
Sounds like bad pots. Which is both good -if you SDIY- and bad -For everybody else.

Because a pot is easily switched out with a soldering iron and a little skill. At these prices, modules still can make sense even after upgrading pots.

Bad because non-DIYers can't do that. But moreso because it points to a place where the inexpensive cost is traded in potentially non-obvious ways. Chinese pots can be made to a WIDE variety of quality levels. From the same factory. This is not only true for the cheapest part producing factories, who have a wildly varying quality output across a run of parts, selling all as the same. You may get a great part, you may get a dog. Total chance depending on what part of the statistical curve output you received. The mid-level factory does it slightly differently. Same production but then end-grading for quality level and selling across different channels, prices and quality expectation.

The higher tier factories operate on a different strategy. They have better process control, and make parts with less variation. (There's always some variation in an industrial process)
But these upper tier producers will make to the level you hold them to. You can get poor to good parts from them. It's all in your contract. Which as a receiver you had better treat as something to keep an eye upon. Do this, and you get what you contract -and pay for.

Let's hope Behringer is paying for good parts from an upper tier or mid-level factory where pots are concerned.

I've written before to SDIYers about how the Chinese pots -all parts really- have been and are changing, and that they have to pay attention to what they're receiving. You are not safe by trusting a suppier or mfr alone. Part numbers can stay the same and the parts come different.

Specific to pots, the carbon track thickness, smoothness and composition can change as the factory works to increase profitability. Cheaper materials, with thinner dimensions replace wipers, Plating processes change to save time or chemical usage. These are all non-obvious to an end user in a single use setting. All you will notice is what's reported in this thread. It doesn't work right.

Or -and to the point of all this typing- it doesn't last as long as it should. Works right out of the box, but fails too soon. One can see why this could be a problem. Fortunately Behringer have been offering a three year warranty on their new synth products. But that's only a good thing if they are responsive to those seeking to use it.

There is another way pots are made less expensive, and luckily this is one you *can* see from single use. But many won't even notice it. Traditionally pot rotation is 300 degrees. Some Chinese pots -while keeping the same part number!- have only 265 degrees rotary travel. If the maker of your synth matches the graphics to the reduced rotation, you probably won't even notice. But you will have a degraded experience.
By accident, there's another one sent to me, so I'll get the opportunity to test a third one.
Please take photos of all three? If Behringer are playing loose with quality, hard documentation is the only way to fight it.

I don't know what Behringer is doing. I'm just an interested bystander with extensive experience procuring Chinese parts.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Tue May 26, 2020 8:05 am

@kss, all true. Thank you for the analysis. Spot on! You have to really watch factory operations there. Looks like I'll have to drag out my test equipment when my parts arrive. Well... I love a good problem to solve :-)

@ishi, read your report on GS. Thank you for sharing! (Beautiful Rice?)
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by tubamirum » Tue May 26, 2020 9:38 am

ishi wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 10:16 pm
I built a preliminary System 55 with the first 6 available modules.

I found some problems with the 923 filters (manual LP/HP). Just before fully opening the LP, there's a sudden jump in cut-off frequency to full open. Also, there seems to be some weird wobbling/fluctuating of the sound before this jump. I noticed it first with the LP, but the HP seems to have the same problem. It also has the weird jump (and fluctuating), but at about the same knob positon as the LP, so just before almost closing (at the 10khz cutoff freq). In comparison, the Mos-Lab 923 doesn't exhibit this and smoothly opens (LP) and closes (HP). I will investigate furter, but probably will return it and try another one.

Image
I have encountered a similar situation with 923 filters. I jumped back to the video on the Behringer channel and noticed that he doesn't seem to fully open the LP filter where he would encounter that problem (0:52), but I am not 100% sure as the sweet spot is delicately hidden by a cable in this video:

I am about to send mine back as well as this is not a filter behaviour I expect. But I am new to the whole Eurorack universe, so I am not sure what to expect anyways :)

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Ebotronix » Fri May 29, 2020 3:04 pm

test # 2

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Fri May 29, 2020 5:05 pm

Nice @ebotronics! Thank you! Love that fret-less finger work :-)
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by mnchrme » Sat May 30, 2020 8:20 am

EPTC wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 2:12 pm
Noticing the resistance is starting to crumble on these things. Even Noisebug is carrying them. So I should ask: How's the filter and other modules?

I don't expect myself to get one but some gaffer tape to cover up the logo and a cardboard box and I might make a micro model 15.
Got some from Thomann. I have a lot of different filters in my setup + some external ones too to compare to. For the price they sound good. Both 55 and 100M clones. 3 channel mix on 100M clone is a really nice touch.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by EPTC » Sat May 30, 2020 12:48 pm

mnchrme wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 8:20 am
For the price they sound good.
Thanks! - Funny phrasing there - What does that mean, for the price?
I mean I don't mind a deal but don't want that to be an audio quality.

Curious: Do they sound like moog filters or if not, how? Less musical? Thinner?
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Sat May 30, 2020 1:53 pm

@EPTC I'm looking forward to ishi's report, assuming he gets the filters and grows his B55. He's got the mos-labs for A/B -or M-B comparison.

ebotronix certainly has the chops, experience and gear to tell or show more of a comparative view. Always enjoy his performances. Only this time was wishing for less effects to get a better idea for myself of the answers you-we all want to know.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by mnchrme » Sat May 30, 2020 3:25 pm

EPTC wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 12:48 pm
mnchrme wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 8:20 am
For the price they sound good.
Thanks! - Funny phrasing there - What does that mean, for the price?
I mean I don't mind a deal but don't want that to be an audio quality.

Curious: Do they sound like moog filters or if not, how? Less musical? Thinner?
I am used to pay about 200-250-390-450€+ for filters so in this price range it was interesting to hear juice and distinctive character but it’s an entirely different design than those I currently use. Even compared to most of my vintage synths. Different flavor but it has its specific uses for sure.

One thing to consider is that these System 55 modules operate under different voltage standart so you are getting less headroom than with 12v ranges. This results in some interesting harmonic changes in signals when you push it over the edge.

The Moog one definitely has that flavor to it sound wise but I can’t speak for your ears as you might find it less fat than I do. It’s a slightly different design than these found in newer/more modern offerings of theirs. It’s basically vanilla Moog.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Ema41 » Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:55 am

I've received the Behringer 914 yesterday, so Iet's talk about it a little here:
It's not bad at all, very clean (visually and musically). There is a way to make it go into resonance/ auto oscillation, but it is necessary to do more than passive feedback between input and output: I had to use a voice of Intellijel quad VCA in boost mode (+ 6dB) to get there. It is especially interesting on a noise input, because the resonant frequencies are not tunable (Fixed filter bank ...), so on a classic oscillo (saw ...), it can be less musical.
On the other hand, it is indeed RC filters (capacitors), and not LC (coils) as for the original.
So, when in this video:

he says (at 0'10 '') that "the module is an authentic reproduction of the circuit of series 15, 35 and 55 (note that he never pronounces the word" Moog ") of the years 1960/70", I'm afraid this is not true here...

Well, it's still an interesting and useful module. The quality of the pots and panel feels very good.
To tell the truth, for its price, it can be a good module to modify with output for each frequency band and/ or odd/even frequencies outputs (and integrated feedback?). There is room for these mods behind the panel.

I did a very quick and simple little demo of 914; without, then with feedback (resonance):
https://fr.audiofanzine.com/rack-analog ... #id:487500
Oscillator is Io Themisto (saw) as input. An AR envelope (MI Stages) and a VCA (Intellijel Quad VCA) in output. Another VCA for the boost, manually controlled by the Offset of a Befaco attenuator.

Last thing: I never had an original Moog 914, so I can't compare the sound. In fact, I don't really mind "authenticity", only sound rules...

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Ebotronix » Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:26 am

Behringer Copier Maschine!!!
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:38 am

Thanks @ema41, it sounds pretty good! I like graphic playing with EQ's like this. I have all three of the filter moogerfoogers. Good stuff.

@ebotronix, revealing as always :-) nice dissonances starting at 2:27.

I'm sold.
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by ndkent » Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:33 am

Ebotronix wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 2:43 am
@ KSS
ok,I understand.
If B. doesn't build a 95X ,there is no quantization and no portamento in their System 55.
That's a good question, I've played with a Moog 55 but not quality time. From what I see when masters of big Moogs play, you do have a left hand pot on the keys for portamento time.

Do you have a slew/lag/portamento processor somewhere else for signals within the system? I don't think so, right?

As for quantitizing, I don't think it was available as a processing module back in the day? Am I correct that for the sequencer, you'd stop on a step and you could monitor a known pitch as reference and manually tune that sequencer step to it. I originally wrongly assumed that to get variation with live sequencing, artists would tweak the pitch on the pots, but really it would be crazy hard to find a correctly pitched step in a scale "live" without quantitizing. I'm pretty sure when you hear say Tangerine Dream's sequence change they are using the skip step live, right?

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:34 pm

ndkent wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:33 am
Do you have a slew/lag/portamento processor somewhere else for signals within the system? I don't think so, right?
As of today -based on MusicTribe's site- still n0thing in the 9xx lineup.

Ideally they'd use this opportunity to make a boog95x MIDI2CV module. That would really finish out the system well. If they don't maybe someone else will. It's hard to find any MIDI2CV which accurately reproduce the functionality of the old 2 voice CV-gate keyboards. THAT would be my hope. After all, on a module made today it'sonly amode and doesn't take away from what someone wants from a more modern MIDI KBD action.
As for quantitizing, I don't think it was available as a processing module back in the day?
Not from moog. Oberheim were the first I remember having quantizer. ARP sequencer too, which could be used separately. But only for two octaves.
Am I correct that for the sequencer, you'd stop on a step and you could monitor a known pitch as reference and manually tune that sequencer step to it.
Yes. Or just use one's musicianship to dial it in. :sstorm:
I originally wrongly assumed that to get variation with live sequencing, artists would tweak the pitch on the pots, but really it would be crazy hard to find a correctly pitched step in a scale "live" without quantitizing.
String instrument players do it every day. 960 has an inherent 0-2V range for the knob, and with mods this could be made less. Crazy hard means different things to different people. For me it's indeed crazy hard, but I've known those for whom it's not. Still, with practice one does get better. Having easier means to achieve an end can does affect how that situation is approached. Not always for the better. cue sstorm again.
I'm pretty sure when you hear say Tangerine Dream's sequence change they are using the skip step live, right?
Yes. Among other means. TD, like others, used a number of different approaches. Including custom gear. Being capable, well-practiced musicians only helps.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by ndkent » Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:24 pm

Thanks for the insight KSS. I'm also thinking from an historical standpoint in terms of what people did back in the day with an original Moog. Because maybe B can say they just made these with their original limitations vs criticism for not including something.

Yeah, even many/most? of the first MIDI to CV converters have portamento... the catch of course is if they have a dedicated knob or needing sysex or button presses to change it. In the rare footage of Tomita playing Moog, looking super close you see him with his left hand changing the rate knob all the time.

Ok, regarding quantitizers, the Oberheim that KSS mentions was surely digital step recording, right? And it was meant to capture to sequencer memory, right?, not say take CV in realtime and send it out realtime quantitized. Or did it have a realtime processing mode?

Worth noting that Tomita kept a Yamaha combo organ below his 960 that he never listed as gear on any albums but is in most photos of his Moogs. I think he was using it as pitch reference.

Agree that string players micro adjust as they hear the pitch and that's what a pro is trained to do. Now I've not tried it but I kind of doubt one could tweak an unquantitized knob in mid sequence and get it right fast enough even with a 2 octave range. Yes you can listen and with perfect pitch dial in that CV or nudge it a bit once more before the sequence comes round again. But get a knob right on the first shot for 1/24th of it's turn range? For most people, it's adjust all your intervals first, then hit start and maybe transpose with keyboard pitch if you are clever.

I guess the point I was trying to make with Tangerine Dream and Moog sequencing (not other brand gear) was it took me years to realize, the 960 can skip any steps. Because it wasn't on entry level sequencers. I got the the length change with step #X triggering a reset but never the switch to off/on a step

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