Behringer System 55

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shyzen
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by shyzen » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:05 am

I was going to get the sequencer module as a standalone type thing but looking at the quick start guide it has all these tuning instructions which are way over my head , I didn't realise analog sequencers had to be tuned ?

heres the guide
https://mediadl.musictribe.com/media/PL ... QSG_WW.pdf

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Hyberus
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Hyberus » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:24 pm

The oscillator is the LFO that clocks the 960. It can run fast enough to turn the 960 into a complex wave generator, should you want it to. The tuning procedure is simply to ensure that the timing is accurate, and is not mandatory.
Random is the new maRnod

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SynthBaron
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SynthBaron » Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:31 pm

KSS wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:04 pm
Ebotronix wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:51 pm
921b scaling
correction #2
after an hour of warm up the scaling was out .
I have 8 x 921 B and no one doesn't track 1v / Oct.
I made the scaling procedure from the model D, now they track over 3 octaves .
That's abysmal. Thank ypu for sharing your results.

Uli Behringer, Can you hear this ^?? Or is the Behringer ear and "We hear you" slogan an empty promise?
With Behringer it's wise to wait until they have figured out all the bugs in the 2nd manufacturing run...

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SkyWriter
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:44 pm

SynthBaron wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:31 pm
KSS wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:04 pm
Ebotronix wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:51 pm
921b scaling
correction #2
after an hour of warm up the scaling was out .
I have 8 x 921 B and no one doesn't track 1v / Oct.
I made the scaling procedure from the model D, now they track over 3 octaves .
That's abysmal. Thank ypu for sharing your results.

Uli Behringer, Can you hear this ^?? Or is the Behringer ear and "We hear you" slogan an empty promise?
With Behringer it's wise to wait until they have figured out all the bugs in the 2nd manufacturing run...
...Or wait for more reports. No tuning problems here. Dead nutz on with B921's.

The pots leave a lot to be desired though. Need to try a better quality part.

Ebotronix
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Ebotronix » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:45 pm

SkyWriter wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:44 pm
SynthBaron wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:31 pm
KSS wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:04 pm
Ebotronix wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:51 pm
921b scaling
correction #2
after an hour of warm up the scaling was out .
I have 8 x 921 B and no one doesn't track 1v / Oct.
I made the scaling procedure from the model D, now they track over 3 octaves .
That's abysmal. Thank ypu for sharing your results.

Uli Behringer, Can you hear this ^?? Or is the Behringer ear and "We hear you" slogan an empty promise?
With Behringer it's wise to wait until they have figured out all the bugs in the 2nd manufacturing run...
...Or wait for more reports. No tuning problems here. Dead nutz on with B921's.

The pots leave a lot to be desired though. Need to try a better quality part.
I had 8x of the 921b and two 921a , sended them back .
after a two hours warm up I tuned them ,ten minutes later the tune was out.
scaling also was a problem.
i will take more of the 921 VC oscillators to complete my system 55.

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SkyWriter
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:18 pm

The original goal for 921A/921B was oscillator instantiation at reduced cost over 921's. If 921 and 921B are the same cost, why not get 921's? Panel space isn't an issue with these small modules. Is there some PW/Sync thing you can't do?

They're both $99 here. I would rather have 6 LFO/Oscillators than 4 oscillators and 2 LFO's; or any mix and match plus two 921A's to drive them.

BowserB61
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by BowserB61 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:51 am

Yeah, the 921 doesn’t have soft/hard sync, so that just depends on how important that feature is to you. The challenge with driving a bank of 921s off of a 921A is that the 921A only has one pitch CV output and the 921s can’t daisy chain their CV input like the 921Bs can. So you would need a few buffered mults to distribute the pitch and PW CV to each oscillator and the 921A would basically only serve as a master tuning knob at that point. The 921B isn’t as natural as an LFO, but it can still get pretty slow if you set it to LO range and use some negative CV to pull it down even more.

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SkyWriter
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:58 pm

Hmm, I see. I'm focused on so-called hybrid sounds design. So the plurality of the VCO's isn't my foremost concern, two 921's ganged for audio per voice is fine. I'll end up with eight 921's in the end that way. That's a bit too much lost space even for me :-) Sync isn't a high priority either, but a pair of 921B's to go with the 921A I already have will satisfy me. I have to get one 921B to try it. Still wait listed...

@bowserB21, you have had no problems so far. So there's that! :-)

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SkyWriter
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:29 pm

Ok, so, not like I have one. But I cna see the writing on the wall, the 904B, and A, but especially B will have the corrupt "cheap pot" ear-sore.

@KSS, what are some US vendors of high quality pot's you would recommend for this app? I'm an old ASIC guy, so... me no comprehendo these modern component supply chains.

betovelandia
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by betovelandia » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:36 pm

Regarding System 55 connecting to other modules, most modules CV range is +- 5VDC and Boog's is +- 6VDC any idea on what's the best way to correctly map their CV to the 55?, this would just be a pre gain stage right that amplifies the signal for a factor of 1.2 correct?

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SkyWriter
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:05 pm

betovelandia wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:36 pm
Regarding System 55 connecting to other modules, most modules CV range is +- 5VDC and Boog's is +- 6VDC any idea on what's the best way to correctly map their CV to the 55?, this would just be a pre gain stage right that amplifies the signal for a factor of 1.2 correct?
I would use either a pre-amp for 'dimensionless' signals, and level shifting for calibrated signals, like v/hz; just add a bias or offset voltage. If you absolutely need full scale deflection, then a pre-amp is what you want. I'm staying mostly inside the boog envelope ftm.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Ebotronix » Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:36 am

is the CP 3A-M mixer DC coupled? (inverted outputs)
can't find anything in the manual.
I think the original can be use for CV mixing / inverting.
Last edited by Ebotronix on Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

KSS
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:23 am

The original moog CP3a IS dc coupled.

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SkyWriter
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:07 am

Ebotronix wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:36 am
is the CP 3A-M mixer DC coupled? (inverted outputs)
can't find anything in the manual.
I think the original can be use for CV mixing / inverting.
Yes, the CP3A-M is DC coupled. It can mix 6 volt CV's fine. +/- outputs for inverting. Plus you get about a 10% amplification knobs on max. I only have a slow scope ATM, so there can be something there I didn't see yet, but it looks, and sounds fine as is.

Getting three 902's tomorrow, so should be able to really start playing.

betovelandia
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by betovelandia » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:03 pm

So Thomann just back ordered my 921A order and I’m in need of 2 921b to finish the Boog system, any advice on where to get them? Sweetwater is already in pre order but they longer to arrive to the states apparently

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SkyWriter
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:05 pm

Doesn't sweetwater have a 921A? Yes, yes they do. The 921B's I'm waiting on. I lucked out, I'll be getting three of my 902's tomorrow. Still waiting on my scope RMA...

lorez22
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by lorez22 » Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:45 am

Does anyone have a copy of the moog modular manual that comes with the reissued model 15,55 and series III ?

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SkyWriter
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:00 am

Oh, the reissue... no.
------------------------------
But: There are some I know of.
1) this is the better one, but a page seems to be missing? http://www.emusic-diy.org/MoogManuals#h ... d81808e3ac
2) this seems to have everything, but it's hard to read. http://www.synthfool.com/docs/Moog/modular/
3) good page: https://modularsynthesis.com/moog/syste ... stem55.htm
4) and https://modularsynthesis.com/moog/moog.htm
5) also very good: http://moogarchives.com/

If anyone has better sources, please post!

Btw, the fun with the new s-trigger! - it trips every time you plug or unplug the s-trig jack. I doubt that's canon behavior. But, fine with me. I'm not a live-jacker.

lorez22
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by lorez22 » Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:15 pm

Moog Modular Owners Manual is the one that I want there is a PDF floating around

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SkyWriter
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:16 pm

lorez22 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:15 pm
Moog Modular Owners Manual is the one that I want there is a PDF floating around
Ooo, I would like that too! I wish all the modules were faithful to the schematics - makes it all easier to mod. But these are good enough. I am getting annoyed with the abbreviated pots on the low end. The jump to zero too quick on all the timing. I love percussive attack/decay tonalities in the first 10 milliseconds of attack and decay, especially if I'm aligning 2 or more ADSR's with slight variations. These pots on the 911's don't go down far enough with cheap pots. :-(

I think it goes down to 2 milli's then jumps zero. That was the measurement I had pined up when my scope died. Time to buy a spare 911 and take it apart.

lorez22
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by lorez22 » Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:22 pm

I have another 921 and 3 902's coming tomorrow, and I want 6 901b's but I'll have to wait for funds to come through ;-)

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:09 pm

SkyWriter wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:16 pm
I am getting annoyed with the abbreviated pots on the low end. The jump to zero too quick on all the timing. I love percussive attack/decay tonalities in the first 10 milliseconds of attack and decay, especially if I'm aligning 2 or more ADSR's with slight variations. These pots on the 911's don't go down far enough with cheap pots. :-(

I think it goes down to 2 milli's then jumps zero. That was the measurement I had pined up when my scope died. Time to buy a spare 911 and take it apart.
It may not be only a cheapness in the pots. BobM chose a special taper for the 911 pots. People not into electronics may not realise that pots come in *far* more vaieties than "Audio" and "Linear"

Tapering resistors are your friends here. The panel labeling is your guide. Charting the graphics values to rotation degrees gives the taper needed.
-------------------

Regarding your earlier question -sorry i didn't see it til now- I know of no alternative source for small volume decent quality pots besides the usual players. Mouser, Digikey, Arrow, etc. along with Thonk, Small bear and SynthCube.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:11 pm

lorez22 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:15 pm
Moog Modular Owners Manual is the one that I want there is a PDF floating around.
If youre referring to the big silver covered book, and you find it, please let us know!

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SkyWriter
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:32 am

Assuming the schematics match somewhat... the 911 and 911a timing circuits are similar. Each uses 1M audio (911A spec'd) taper pot in series with a 100 ohm resistor. The timing matches the front panel fairly well throughout the range, so I'm not worried about pot taper atm. Those 100 ohm resistors are all there on the B911, the pots are 1meg as well. When the pot is fully CCW, the 100 ohm isn't enough for 1 ms. Once the wiper leaves the end terminal it jumps to 2ms. The discontinuity seems to be the problem.

To me, that last part, doesn't look good for fixing it with tapers. I could at the expense of the high end, provide more accuracy in the 1-3 ms (good for me!) but not sure where the 10sec mark would end up - maybe 5 secs? Could put a 4 meg in parallel to the pot and speed it all up to get the fast end faster, but that's drastic. However, I'm more interested in fast than slow.

The pot is label 05a105. Simple search fails for indent. Will look further...
61AB2A6B-117A-4322-AEAD-9C062AADB148.jpeg
2ECB911C-7C25-48C0-9BD4-A7F7E7521D75.jpeg
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Last edited by SkyWriter on Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ebotronix
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Ebotronix » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:45 am

lots of technical information,
you can also make music with it....
entire sounds by System 55 ,six tracks:

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