Behringer System 55

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SkyWriter
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:07 am

Lol! @ebotronix, you're right! I'm relying on your tunes to keep me interested in fixing these! It's helps tremendously :-)

I love your music! Sounding great!

Engineers, gotta be engineers though... :-)

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Thorsday » Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:07 am

Stupid Sexy Ebotronix

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by acidblue » Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:15 pm

Does any one have sound demos of the 921 and 921b VCO's?

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Ebotronix » Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:02 pm

acidblue wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:15 pm
Does any one have sound demos of the 921 and 921b VCO's?
bass and lead are the 921A (2x) / 921B (8x)
S&H chords by 921VC (4x)

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Zwendel » Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:01 pm

Hi, just got a 960 and 962 in to combine with my Aion modular gear . Aion is planning to release there version of the 960 sequencer (end of 2020 + other 900 serie modules), but just to then i will test this cheap one out.
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Zwendel » Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:16 pm

shyzen wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:05 am
I was going to get the sequencer module as a standalone type thing but looking at the quick start guide it has all these tuning instructions which are way over my head , I didn't realise analog sequencers had to be tuned ?

heres the guide
https://mediadl.musictribe.com/media/PL ... QSG_WW.pdf
Korg Sq1.....

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SkyWriter
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:40 pm

Zwendel wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:01 pm
Hi, just got a 960 and 962 in to combine with my Aion modular gear . Aion is planning to release there version of the 960 sequencer (end of 2020 + other 900 serie modules), but just to then i will test this cheap one out.
Beautiful looking Stuff @zwendel. Interested to hear how it's working out. Especially the penultimate travel CW and CCW of the Step Value pots, and the Frequency Vernier on the B960.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:13 pm

SkyWriter wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:32 am
Once the wiper leaves the end terminal it jumps to 2ms. The discontinuity seems to be the problem.
Yes. Taper R's can't fix that. That's back to the problem we talked about earlier. Any decent pot will run out of mechanical travel before it runs out of electrical connection. Unless it's spec'd for doing so. This use clearly isn't that.

Member's Noddyspuncture and CZ_Rider would be the ones to ask about the 911 taper.

While you're in the 911, it might pay to have a look at what happens if you hit the Gate jack with a 12 volt gate. It's not designed for that, and Behringer may not have done anything to help. Since they've used normal jacks there, one would think they'd also protect the input. I don't recall any warnings in their literature, but I do recall repairs of some old moog that got a V where it was expecting an S.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Zwendel » Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:02 am

SkyWriter wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:32 am
Assuming the schematics match somewhat... the 911 and 911a timing circuits are similar. Each uses 1M audio (911A spec'd) taper pot in series with a 100 ohm resistor. The timing matches the front panel fairly well throughout the range, so I'm not worried about pot taper atm. Those 100 ohm resistors are all there on the B911, the pots are 1meg as well. When the pot is fully CCW, the 100 ohm isn't enough for 1 ms. Once the wiper leaves the end terminal it jumps to 2ms. The discontinuity seems to be the problem.

To me, that last part, doesn't look good for fixing it with tapers. I could at the expense of the high end, provide more accuracy in the 1-3 ms (good for me!) but not sure where the 10sec mark would end up - maybe 5 secs? Could put a 4 meg in parallel to the pot and speed it all up to get the fast end faster, but that's drastic. However, I'm more interested in fast than slow.

The pot is label 05a105. Simple search fails for indent. Will look further...

61AB2A6B-117A-4322-AEAD-9C062AADB148.jpeg

2ECB911C-7C25-48C0-9BD4-A7F7E7521D75.jpeg
Maybe this is helpfull. Another Moog 911 copy.
Pics of the 911 Aion modular before i assembled them, the BOM list i got from Aion themself. Normaly they don't do DIY kits.
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SkyWriter
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:58 am

@KSS, I remember your warning about S + V trigs together. They can withstand 6V, that's for sure :-)

@zwendel, sweet! Could you post just the line items for the pot's from your BOM? Maybe I got a date code instead of a PN. I need a magnifier for all of this. This 0603 stuff is too small for me anymore.lol!

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Zwendel » Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:01 pm

SkyWriter wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:58 am
@KSS, I remember your warning about S + V trigs together. They can withstand 6V, that's for sure :-)

@zwendel, sweet! Could you post just the line items for the pot's from your BOM? Maybe I got a date code instead of a PN. I need a magnifier for all of this. This 0603 stuff is too small for me anymore.lol!
Hi, part of the BOM list.

Pots
https://www.thonk.co.uk/shop/alpha-9mm- ... tical-t18/
3x 1M A (log)
1x 10K B (linear)
The first 3 pots are 1M (Attack, Decay, Release) and the forth is 1OK (sustain). Moog modular had the sustain knob in last (ADRS instead of ADSR)

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SkyWriter
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:21 pm

Thanks @zwendel!

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by CZ Rider » Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:16 am

KSS wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:13 pm


Member's Noddyspuncture and CZ_Rider would be the ones to ask about the 911 taper.
Bob Moog used Allen Bradley type J pots on the 911. The 1 meg pots were 10% tolerance and had a somewhat unique log taper at 10%. The 10% taper means at the half way ,12 o'clock position should be about 100K resistance. The 10% tolerance keeps this close. For instance a 20% tolerance pot could vary as much as 1.2 meg and most log tapers are about 15% or more.
Bob used these for all the 1 meg log pots on both the modulars and Minimoog. They gave a sort of fine tuning range in the first half of the envelope timing. While the Moog enveloped are snappy, this gives that extra control to easily dial it in.

Alps makes a 10% log taper, but the standard is usually 15%. Bottom line is not all log tapers are equal just because they are 1 meg audio type.

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SkyWriter
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:59 am

Ok, got it. Thanks @CZ rider.

Fwiw, technically the EG T1-3's do meet the minimum timing of 2ms. Full CCW however, will put it at 0ms after a discontinuous jump from 2ms to 0 ms. 2ms is the minimum panel gradation.

Otoh, taper is out of spec in two ways.
- maximum T1-3 time is 5 seconds, not 10 as on the panel.
- when you hit the 1 second inflection point (at front panel gradation 3 seconds), it immediately changes rate. So timing sub-second accuracy anywhere above 1 sec is nearly* impossible given the knob size. N.B. I could easily go up on knob diameter with current panel spacing. 25% over diameter would be much better.

Below you can see the effect of slight angular pressure on the knob first produces a 500ms jump faster, then a 1 sec jump slower. The spacing on the panel leads on to believe it's not abrupt. At least not at that point :-)

*-note, we're at 2/3's instead of 1/2 way point. So only approx 66% of the original angular sweep, divided by the reduction in knob diameter - would make a 10 second range even more unwieldy. Foresight, or Hindsight? You choose :-)
81AF0735-91B5-4705-851B-56D82FDD0B9D.jpeg
Fun stuff!
Update: just noticed the scope doesn't show Tdiv, it's 1 sec. sry!
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by lorez22 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:32 pm

A quick question as I'm new to the moog modular, and awaiting 2 960's, how to you transpose the seq? the control input seems to control the speed, not sure what the shift input does.
what am I missing?

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:21 pm

lorez22 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:32 pm
A quick question as I'm new to the moog modular, and awaiting 2 960's, how to you transpose the seq? the control input seems to control the speed, not sure what the shift input does.
what am I missing?
Just add more voltage at the target. 55 uses V/Oct, There are three 921 inputs. 960 goes to one input, then offset/bias voltage to another 921 input. That offset/bias is the transpose.

Three inputs will advance sequence:
- when enabled the internal oscillator.
- Shift Trigger input and Button.
- Set buttons - advance to current stage.

You can control oscillator frequency with the V/Oct Control input. Will be interesting to 'hear' what the Fmax will be on that! :-)

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by betovelandia » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:49 pm

I wonder if it would be useful to make some brackets similar to the mantis to connect two behringer Eurorack cases, anyone interested?

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by finnurbjarna » Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:39 am

I know there's a lot of romance around the system 55 (and no doubt rightly so) but I'm not sure I can see the economics of getting the Moog sound in this way.

Once I've assembled 4 oscillators, 2 envelopes, 2 filters, 2 VCA's, another 2 VCO's to use as LFO's, the Noise module, the sequencer, various utilities, a power supply and a case, getting a Matriarch with the added stereo delay, keyboard, arpeggiator and 4 voice paraphony starts to look like very good value.

Am I missing something?

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Robot00 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:31 am

finnurbjarna wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:39 am
I know there's a lot of romance around the system 55 (and no doubt rightly so) but I'm not sure I can see the economics of getting the Moog sound in this way.

Once I've assembled 4 oscillators, 2 envelopes, 2 filters, 2 VCA's, another 2 VCO's to use as LFO's, the Noise module, the sequencer, various utilities, a power supply and a case, getting a Matriarch with the added stereo delay, keyboard, arpeggiator and 4 voice paraphony starts to look like very good value.

Am I missing something?
I think you are missing something. Unlike Matriarch, these are actual eurorack modules that can be combined however we want and can be used to build complete System 55. Have you looked at what modulars usually cost compared to semimodulars?

If you want to go strictly for value, I would say cheapest way to get Moog sound would be Behringers Model D or Poly D.

Moog recently sold System 55 themselves with asking price of $35000. I believe now we can get eurorack version for less than 10% of that price. It’s a good deal in my opinion.

Personally, I am getting into modular because of these modules. If only the 960 sequencer was stocked somewhere that ships to my country, I would have already placed my order.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by josaka » Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:35 am

SkyWriter wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:56 pm
lorez22 wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:48 pm
I'm Struggling to get that fat Moog Sound with the modules I've got so far 3x 921, low pass filter, VCA and mixer...any hints
I've never understood what the 'Fat Moog Sound' phenomenon is all about. But, from experimenting with just voicing band limited sawtooth waveforms In Plaits code, even with ostensibly equivalent looking waveforms, sawtooth's can sound dramatically different. The thing about analogs, non-linearities - such as ramp slope - can affect perceived sound.

Having said all that, these are not the same circuits as the OG modules, and may have a characteristic waveform that differs unremarkably in every way from the canonical "Moog Sound" waveform, but lack that quintessential aspect folks hunt for.

Push the loudness button. :-)
its called CP3 mixer.. :) ..oh.. and 901s !

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Klanglab » Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:15 am

Hi, anyone any idea how to synchronize the 960 with other gear? The oscillator takes V/oct, but doesn't seem to listen to clock signals. It's a marvelous module (especially for the price) but it would be a bit disappointing if it can't cooperate with other clocks. I'm sure I'm overlooking something, but can't figure out what. Thx!

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Hyberus » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:39 pm

Klanglab wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:15 am
Hi, anyone any idea how to synchronize the 960 with other gear? The oscillator takes V/oct, but doesn't seem to listen to clock signals. It's a marvelous module (especially for the price) but it would be a bit disappointing if it can't cooperate with other clocks. I'm sure I'm overlooking something, but can't figure out what. Thx!
Send a 4ppqn clock to the 'shift' input.
Random is the new maRnod

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Klanglab » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:53 pm

Hyberus wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:39 pm
Klanglab wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:15 am
Hi, anyone any idea how to synchronize the 960 with other gear? The oscillator takes V/oct, but doesn't seem to listen to clock signals. It's a marvelous module (especially for the price) but it would be a bit disappointing if it can't cooperate with other clocks. I'm sure I'm overlooking something, but can't figure out what. Thx!
Send a 4ppqn clock to the 'shift' input.
Like a charm! Thanks so much!

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:56 pm

betovelandia wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:49 pm
I wonder if it would be useful to make some brackets similar to the mantis to connect two behringer Eurorack cases, anyone interested?
I'm going to stack two Go's vertically. Sandwich them between poorly finished pine 'console size' cheeks. ;) I wish the Go case didn't have that inflection between rows - you can line two cases up, so the adjacent faces are co-planar - but three is both a bit silly, and really tall! I'll stack a pine box on top. It's literally out of reach sitting down there anyway - at least in any repeatable fashion :-)

I like the 55's series because each module is a single no-nonsense function. Of course, it would take a crazy amount of models to replace a Tides, for instance. But it's both good plumbing, and uniformly black face plates :-) plus those little racing stripe aluminum strips down the side are pretty cool - once you line them all up.

But if that's not your look, there plenty of denser plumbing options out there. And man, you are going to have to get doepfer slew rate and S+H modules :-)

I'm using the 55 to model analog paths along with Mutable Plaits and Elements, for compound, high-integration functions (with black magpie panels... and black cables bwahahahaha!).

I'm going for that console instrument look. All-Black and stained wood. It never looks messy even 1/2 cabled!
-------------------
Btw, @betovelandia got a URL? I'm not seeing what I thought I would see for mantis.

Oooo, I like the look of that! In black!
Image

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Hyberus » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:38 am

Klanglab wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:53 pm
Hyberus wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:39 pm
Klanglab wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:15 am
Hi, anyone any idea how to synchronize the 960 with other gear? The oscillator takes V/oct, but doesn't seem to listen to clock signals. It's a marvelous module (especially for the price) but it would be a bit disappointing if it can't cooperate with other clocks. I'm sure I'm overlooking something, but can't figure out what. Thx!
Send a 4ppqn clock to the 'shift' input.
Like a charm! Thanks so much!
No problem. In a previous life I was one of the testers for the pre-production version. Basically it mimics how Moog did it, which seems a bit clumsy now, but back in the day he was largely making it up as he went along; so you have to forgive him. Going to get one myself, one of these days.
Random is the new maRnod

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