Behringer System 55

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:19 pm

galanter2 wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:41 pm
I'm not sure what I did wrong last night, but now when I view the response to white noise "high pass" does not extend appreciably below "5600."
Happens all the time :-)
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:44 pm

For the edification of everyone, and my own personal pleasure, to announce that the modified 911-Fast is much better for the kind of envelopes I'm most interested in. Playing the the Attack/Decay characteristics of both 902 and 904A envelopes is where the action is for me. There is panel space to add a Fast/Slow toggle.

Also, take care with desoldering temps and dwell times. This is the lightest copper cladding I've played with it can't take more than 1-2 reworks, then you start losing pads. Luckily, all the pot terminals connect elsewhere over short distances so running wire is easy.
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:09 pm

I'm somewhat embarrassed to admit I'd never thought about copper weight as an area Behringer could exploit for economic gain.
But it does make perfect sense for them to do so.

By far the most common traditional 2 side PCBs started with 1/2 oz copper and plated another 1/2 oz in the holes and on the surface bringing the total up to 1oz surface spec. It's wild to think the difference in copper used would be enough to make a choice to use less worth pursuing. But then that's not the only reason to do so. Plating is a fairly linear process, so half the weight is half the time. Time might well be enough reason to use fewer oz copper.

IF, indeed thats been done here. Without measuring actual thickness, your anecdotal experience could be crappy adhesion and-or poor substrate material or substrate prep prior to copper lamination. Not to mentions variables in tools used and skill available. <--No conclusion assumed on either. Not meant to be personally applied.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:36 pm

@KSS let me be clear when I say 'light'. I'm used to 10 mil TH copper weights in a 12 layer stack. Modern SMT copper cladding may be normal. The first pad seemed par for the course. The second pad was a first pass rework - although I had music on, so I didn't hear the tell tale sound of 'desoldered'. And I may just be heavy handed.

Forewarned is forearmed. Although I do admire my own rework skills, I prefer not to have to invoke them on a living product :-) I'm used to emptying bins of dog boards, not brain surgery! Lol!

I am really humming on the fast 911's. The originals are pokey slow, fwoopy, one pseudo-snap, one setting of clicky. These guys are really workable in my happy zone. I just need to fix the Yarns code to lengthen the Legato retrigger, my fingers are too lazy...

With one on VCA and the other on LPF, it's really very punchy! I'm impressed. I should send @ebotronix a set to demo for yall! Where heck is that crazy musician?!?
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:58 pm

SkyWriter wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:36 pm
I should send @ebotronix a set to demo for yall! Where heck is that crazy musician?!?
That's a really good idea!

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:09 pm

The Bourns PTV09A-6 in a 1Meg A10 taper Looks like the best shot. I sent a query to Bourns contact system. I can't find anyone that carries them. I checked most of their distributer listing. It looks like a pro-audio part. It should be hard to get, the only difference from all these parts is the element, and those can even be printed these days, can't they?

The ALPS 5% looks suspiciously like the ALPHA taper performs like, although it's a 10% taper which is why the top 1/2 works well - it's mostly linear in that range. The Behringer 5% taper looks the same, although of lesser quality.

I really wish I could say the Behringer ones were better. But with a scope, it leaves a lot to be desired.

Hmmm.... the 1X/10X speed toggle itself is a useful mod for this Irrespective of pots changes. But it's more work per. If there's panel space to be co-op'd I would just put in a fast one or two. If you've got the S55 standard double and triple 902/911 clusters, then I would mode the double pair, or the delayed pair of the triple; depending on how you use them.

FWIW, this fast change really made them useful for me by some suitably subjective measure of satisfaction proportional to the frequency with which I utilize fast envelopes; i.e. 99.99% of the time :-) Really glad I picked these Behringer's to jump in on. Time to start shopping for 168HP rails - perfect for 5 octave keyboard :-)
galanter2 wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:22 am
1 - The panel finish seems a bit cheap. The lettering doesn’t pop. And some harsh lighting angles make the surface look irregular.
Yeah, I have about 2-3 different finishes. You can see it in the sun, but otherwise I don't notice.
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by mmckenzie » Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:08 pm

SkyWriter wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:09 pm
FWIW, this fast change really made them useful for me by some suitably subjective measure of satisfaction proportional to the frequency with which I utilize fast envelopes; i.e. 99.99% of the time :-) Really glad I picked these Behringer's to jump in on.
So

What's the final summary of your 911 mods? Or are you still waiting for more pots to arrive?! It's precisely the click to fwup effect I would like to address. I'm not that fussed about matching the front panel as one twiddles until it sounds right anyway rather than looking for so many ms.

But, another 902 arrives on Wednesday...then I'll have no excuse...

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:46 pm

mmckenzie wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:08 pm
So

What's the final summary of your 911 mods? Or are you still waiting for more pots to arrive?! It's precisely the click to fwup effect I would like to address. I'm not that fussed about matching the front panel as one twiddles until it sounds right anyway rather than looking for so many ms.

But, another 902 arrives on Wednesday...then I'll have no excuse...
I look at it this way:

The design is capable of reproducing the timing contour on the front panel. To manage it, I have to:
1) identify the correct part. Part confirmed via the decade box measurements against the existing design. Done.
2) create a tool chain to reliably rework the modules myself within the tolerances of the existing product. Done. Although it's pretty unforgiving.
3) source the correct part to kick everything in action. Still looking, have candidate part under inquiry.

Assuming #3 is achievable, the original goal is reachable. Certainly, hasn't been proven otherwise. I would wait for the outcome of number three, and the final test at my expense. I'll chronicle it here. Stock condition is a great bargain. And really it's what your ears want to hear.

If #3 falls through, then you've got some good options to getting more value from it.

Whether you wait for me, go it alone, or do nothing; #2 is the gating factor. Let someone else pay for the destructive part.

If you don't like waiting, dig in and find some parts - all the specs are spelled right out: 1Meg ohm, "snap-in", vertical D-shaft, 9mm, true-log construction, 10% taper. It's all leg work now.

Personally, I think the investment in watching someone else do all the work is enough to wait and see what happens next. Lol :-)
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:10 pm

I'll say this, if you what to repeatability make finely detailed envelopes with single mIllisecond definition like this:
(20ms envelop start to finish)
F5413972-ED9C-4AE0-AD3B-B73333E79F95.jpeg
Grab your soldering iron, and get cracking! Cheese Grommit! Cheese!!!

I'll say this other thing, you won't ever get close to the full range of "the Moog sound" with this kit unless you have two ADSR's that can give you that fine ms control. Being able to shuffle the AMP and FLT ADSR's attack/decay is core to that bass and lead presence that grabs you, as well as the entire range of percussive voicings. Yes, you can coax some stuff out of the stock ones, but it just doesn't have any control in that important range (dare I say where all the snappiness is? viewtopic.php?p=3359838#p3359838 :0) )
Last edited by SkyWriter on Sat Oct 03, 2020 7:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by mmckenzie » Sat Oct 03, 2020 4:45 pm

SkyWriter wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:46 pm
Whether you wait for me, go it alone, or do nothing; #2 is the gating factor. Let someone else pay for the destructive part.

If you don't like waiting, dig in and find some parts - all the specs are spelled right out: 1Meg ohm, "snap-in", vertical D-shaft, 9mm, true-log construction, 10% taper. It's all leg work now.

Personally, I think the investment in watching someone else do all the work is enough to wait and see what happens next. Lol :-)
Ha ha. I can wait! I'm loving the process. I also know the trauma of trying to source a set of pots (for a different purpose). You find a perfect one on a manufacturer's data sheet and for some reason nobody stocks them. And then the knob you want to use only comes in a T18 version and the pots are only stocked in 1/4in D shaft...

Until my third 902 arrives, I won't be feeling the full quotient of disappointment in the resolution anyway!

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SynthBaron » Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:15 pm

I remember Paul Schrieber's lamentations about ordering pots, and that was over 15 years ago. Minimums and long lead times for what should be a stocked part...

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sat Oct 03, 2020 7:15 pm

SynthBaron wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:15 pm
I remember Paul Schrieber's lamentations about ordering pots, and that was over 15 years ago. Minimums and long lead times for what should be a stocked part...
Welp, the good news is, after surveying all the designs, we’re in pretty good shape. Only two types I consider to be “must replace”.
One is a “something fishy, need more info” - of which there are a lot 902 and 960. The final one “should be changed, but can’t see a problem with it”.
DD6DA963-27E8-41CA-B458-21CE811C96C7.jpeg
If acquiring this one pot is a failure too, the 911-Fast is always an option that is serving me well today. Easy to do, $6 in parts per 911. Adding a toggle would all modding all 911’s. Just put big knobs on to hide the panel markings. Lol!

The other thing to consider is, if we add a toggle for fast and normal, why not make it a 3-way and add a slow mode to 10x the cap? Eep? Retrigger/loop mode? :-)
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Sat Oct 03, 2020 7:20 pm

The largest need drives what's considered a "stocked part." Even 15 years ago -I remember paults's comments too- that was in a state of change away from the types we use in analog synths.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sat Oct 03, 2020 7:38 pm

Yeah, the instrumentation field went digital, and the remaining audio pot world shrank to pro-audio, the rest went cheap ‘volume controls’. Well, it was a legit move, don’t blame them.

STILL, this is a modern modular pot with modern manufacturing. What can it cost to do a run of these little parts for a small run? It’s just the element printing/deposition. I know the taper; I have the measurements. There’s no risk, it’s just NRE costs, the rest is whatever a small run is on their line. I’ve done crazier things :0)


Hmmm... and a legato mode. What to do about 961 and 911A though. Not having two versions of those. Toggle speed mode again I guess. I really want that fast 911A too, the 961, not so much, just want it accurate.

I could just put a 8HP panel with all the speed toggles there for the 911's, 911A, and 961 "group", next to the 993 module :-) for my normalled system.
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:40 pm

I expect you're going to see the stepwise approximation no matter what pot you choose. Think about it. They use that multi-print process for the same reason we use LOG. Because it deals with means to compress a huge range into something useful or in their case, manufacture-able.

How would you cover the range in a useful way? Your only available variable -once you've chosen carbon as your conductor- is its density and-or area. Since the range is huge 0-1million and available area is small AKA Really Fn TINY! there's only so much that can be done by using a physical tapering of the print area. So that's combined with separate prints of different carbon density and between the two -literally- you have steps. As the wiper moves from a high density carbon area to a lower density carbon area. Smooth transitions are helped by width of print changes, but that's -clearly- not enough.

Worse there's no real economic pressure to improve or fix it because digital uses linear -which is *easy* to print- and modifies to any needed taper in code.

You may ask why do the AB J-type pots of classic moog seem better? Several reasons. They're huge in comparison and the carbon layer is *much* thicker.
you can assemble a carbon block with the desired taper as a function of how it's made, and then slice off resistive elements. Like was done for CTS sliders in the ARPs and Sonic 6. The older pots had to work at power exceeding 1W. Now our pots are what 1/16th W? The economic need *was* there and people were willing to pay for it. To a relative degree that's not generally acceptable now. At the high end you can get enough money to do it right using old school methods. But you also enter in Audiophool territory pretty quickly.

There *are* some smaller style 'military grade' pots -RV6, and others- which also got it right in the past. Some are stlll made the old ways. But they're in a class where each pot costs 20-30 dollars and more.

You *can* buy the carbon used in screen printing pot tracks. You *can* read about how the older pots were made in patents. You can modify tapers using the trick I shared in PM. But those are hardly in the realm of what most call SDIY.

I expect you will be unsatisfied with any but a custom run. And even there, unless you really get after it, it's *still* going to be a stepwise multi-print of 2-4 carbon densities.

I think your 'sideways step' solution -to use a switch to put the resistive track area used in optimum relation to the desired output- is the best choice short of making or riding QC over someone else's making of custom resistive tracks.

I'd also look into using tapering resistors with a linear pot. That eliminates the steps.
The other area that might yield fruit involves circuit changes. As mentioned before. What we're seeing is why you can't just re-use the old schematics and BOMs and think you'll get the same results. Parts *are* different today. Not to be read as better or worse. But different.

What you *can* do is create something which has the same result for the person using it. But that won't necessarily have the same circuit, and is a new design and *much* harder than a brand new design unencumbered by needing to match existing vintage units to a high enough level to be at least generally satisfying. JHaible was and Old Crow is good at this.

Dave Brown AKA modularsynthesis.com recently wrote in a thread about Buchla FETs, where posters were trying to determine what some spec needed to be for vintage equivalence. Talking numbers. He said, I don't measure or look at the spec numbers of the FET, (those change all the time) I adjust the circuit around it -resistor changes- until I have a good sine.

------------------
What I'd REALLY like to see is someone put an Electric Druid moog EG chip behind one of these panels, with the same jacks and knobs and see if anyone can tell, compared to both old moogs and the new Boogs. At least single blind to be useful at all.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by jackpie » Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:26 am

I'm thinking it might be easiest to ditch the 911s and replace with Doepfer A-140v ADSRs.

I'm struggling to believe in S-trigs anyway.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:15 am

In 1970 some of us were struggling to believe in Vtrig.. ;)

Do A-140v's go out to 10 seconds?

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sun Oct 04, 2020 9:11 am

@KSS, here’s why I’m not pursuing taper resistors (other than Rob said he was looking at it; no sense me doing it too).
DEDBD832-6249-4902-A13F-DC8C3868E8E0.jpeg
The curve is going the wrong way to lend accuracy to the low end - all the change is in the top end, and the bottom is factional at best. This stuff wasn’t my day job, maybe I missed some analog trick?
============================================

I appreciate the history behind the issue (thank you for articulating it!)****, well worn problems are my favorite. But, I just got here, and I have to earn my lumps! A new pair of eyes never hurt either :-)

I wrote a bunch of stuff, deleted it. Just a lot of stuff that still needs to be looked at, and “but, what abouts”. Nothing urgent. Besides, I really need to digest the details of your post. Like always! Ha!

The main point’s were wrt ALPHA pots:
- 280 vs 300. I might have 280’s and a 300 would be better.
- I discovered the hysteresis effects after I swapped the cap. Selectivity at 10uf might be acceptable - to some.
- I haven’t spent much time with just the pot swapped version.

The the main point is: I am very focused on one part - and I may be ‘jumping the shark’ for everyone else. One reason to try to put everything down is that someone may see their solution where I don’t don’t see mine* . I have a technical requirement for front panel accuracy, not an esthetic one. I could just stop and mark it up now, and continue on my way writing my software. But, that’s not the fun way to do it. So, buckle up, we’re all going to have fun doing this together. :cry: .... :hihi:

I agree with all the technical issues you elaborated on with manufacturing the device we want, as always, our main problem is is fall out from “the enemy of perfection, is good enough”. A recurring problem to be sure.
————————————
You mean this? https://electricdruid.net/moog-911-adsr ... tor-clone/ :-)

=================
Follow up on selectivity over the ‘splice’: The Behringer part splice is between the 3-tick and 4 on the front panel, the difference is between 400ms and 1sec, hitting a number between them is hit or miss, mostly miss. I can’t find any issue with the ALPHA yet. So, any improvement over the Behringer part is a real improvement here.

*i.e. this is a place where some folks can get off this crazy bus and just opt for an ALPHA pot to make life better. I’m committed to going through the whole module set. I need psychiatric :help: lol!

****-sincerely, awesome thoughts you've posted! What've I've determined having an alternative to the behringer is that, man it stinks for this application. Technically it probably obeys the some strictures of equivalence, but if I'm non-monotonically increasing, or decreasing T1 and the scope takes one step backwards, and two steps forward, this is not a pot I wish to own. The ALPHA alone is a huge improvement.

I found two candidates. They seem to have plastic shafts, but that's OK.
PTV09A-4025F-A105
PTV09A-4025F-A504
There's a 1meg to replace one for one, and a 500K to see if it changes the taper performance at all. It's the wrong taper (15% instead of 10%) but it's worth noting if it fits the curve any better than the ALPHA even if the performance is no better. The published curves are different. This is a non-blocking options I can exercise now.
----
Boy, glad i started by deleting a long post. Sheesh.
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by jackpie » Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:22 pm

KSS wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:15 am
Do A-140v's go out to 10 seconds?
Doepfer specs:

'Module A-140 has available a three-position toggle switch to select one of three time ranges. The time ratios for the three ranges are about 1 : 20 : 1000. The absolute Attack times are about:

20uS ... 100ms (switch position L)
400uS ... 2s (switch position M)
20ms ... 120s (switch position H)
The Decay and Release times are about 3-4 times more. Because of the exponential slope and the gradual asymptotic approach to the zero level the exact specification of the decay and real times is a bit difficult."

So maybe not 10secs but close. I've got one coming to try out and see how it fits in. Cosmetically it's the same 8HP, black, similar layout and density.

My Boog System 55 is becoming a Boog/Doepfer hybrid with the Dopefer A156 Quantizer, A147-2 LFO and A185-2 Precision Adder all in there already in their matching Doepfer black vintage style.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:20 pm

Those ranges are all the same as the moog 911; 5000:1. There's no magic here...

Doepfer uses a larger packaging style potentiometer (nice*). Almost like a TH mount mini panel pot like the old wire lug types. So drill a shaft hole through the Behringer 911 PCB and rig a PCB to hold the pots. Heh. J/k


*-can't read the manufacturer .... yet. Not printed on the package. :-( probably Bourns... more info is better info.


Lol, OK I'm going out out on the crazy-limb here. My slew rate limiter A-170 has T18 A1M pots with a threaded bushing. There is plenty of8 room to strip the mounting struts off the package and thread the pots to the front panel of the Moog and fly wire to the holes*. I think we're done here. Anyone care to join me? Actually, the struts can stay. Not j/k.
03A52CFA-A05D-4F43-B458-1BDB7646A14A.jpeg
*-I hereby patent this here smart-ass idea. Lol! Plus you can get better knobs in T18. *snicker*
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:51 pm

Thanks, looking forward to hearing what you feel about the trade once it's in place.

I've commented often about the range of things and their impact on the user experience. That then gets translated into words like snappy. Or simply like vs dislike. Those specs seem to set up for an experience like what Sky Writers Fast mod does -at least in the middle range. The H range is far too wide to feel like a 911 in actual use.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SynthBaron » Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:18 pm

Doepfer pots at least used to be the DI YA (or DI-YA) brand.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SynthBaron » Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:21 pm

Maybe Paul still has some...

viewtopic.php?p=329873#p329873

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SkyWriter » Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:29 pm

SynthBaron wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:21 pm
Maybe Paul still has some...

viewtopic.php?p=329873#p329873
Oh, well scratch that idea then. Custom made.
SynthBaron wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:21 pm
Maybe Paul still has some...

viewtopic.php?p=329873#p329873
Yeah idk paul... you ask :-)
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SynthBaron » Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:31 pm

I'm guessing the pot problem plagues the Model D too, since I bought and sold one pretty quickly because it was such a pain in the ass to dial in sounds.

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