Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Cwejman, Livewire, TipTop Audio, Doepfer etc... Get your euro on!

Moderators: luketeaford, Joe., lisa, Kent

User avatar
galanter2
Common Wiggler
Posts: 200
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:32 pm
Location: Texas A&M University
Contact:

Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Post by galanter2 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:19 pm

Perhaps I'm missing something here.

There are any number of modules for managing gates and triggers. We have dividers, boolean operators, clocks that lock, electronic switches, etc etc.

So why are there so few modules for simply delaying a gate? What do people do when they want an evolving sound, and some aspects don't become active until well after the attack?

The only one I can find available is the Doepfer A-162 Dual Trigger Delay. That one is (IMHO) wider than need be, and it only has one gate-off mode. (One would like a choice…end the delayed gate when the input gate ends, end the delayed gate after a fixed interval, end the delayed gate in the same amount of time as the input gate. Also I want long delay times…10 seconds or more.)

http://www.doepfer.de/a162.htm

Something closer is the Ladik S-186. Except it's out of stock everywhere as best as I can tell.

http://ladik.ladik.eu/?page_id=1717

It's tempting to just build my own. I could probably whip up a quad delay by using an Arduino and level-matching buffers. But I'd rather just pay someone to do it and spend my time recording.

Thoughts?

User avatar
wigwig
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 363
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 4:24 pm
Location: Sloeland

Re: Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Post by wigwig » Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:22 pm

SSF Propagate ?
Mabel encounters a peahen.

User avatar
lisa
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 4975
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:00 am
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Post by lisa » Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:29 pm

2hp Brst andMalekko Quad Gate Delay might be good options.
New track! Drum synthesis heavy, melodic piece where Instruō harmonàig is doing the chords. 🐡


User avatar
galanter2
Common Wiggler
Posts: 200
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:32 pm
Location: Texas A&M University
Contact:

Re: Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Post by galanter2 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:29 pm

(I have a couple Expert Sleepers Disting V4's which offer mode H-6 Dual Delayed Pulse Generator. But this doesn't pay attention to the duration of the input, just its starting point. IE it's for triggers more than gates.)

User avatar
Agawell
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 959
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 3:22 am

Re: Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Post by Agawell » Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:39 pm

mutable instruments stages?
Instagram

Utility modules are the inexpensive, dull polish that makes the expensive, shiny modules actually shine - and stops them tarnishing too!!!

User avatar
galanter2
Common Wiggler
Posts: 200
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:32 pm
Location: Texas A&M University
Contact:

Re: Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Post by galanter2 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:42 pm

wigwig wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:22 pm
SSF Propagate ?
Thanks! What misses the mark for me is that the module doesn't pay any attention to the duration of the input gate. It outputs a gate with an independent duration. (It is voltage controlled, so perhaps there is a way to turn the duration of the input gate into a voltage via integration or the like. But that's a long way around. I suppose I could use an AND gate to cut off the delayed gate when the input gate ends for that mode. Still a 3 way selector and internal circuitry for the 3 gate-end modes would be much easier to use.)

User avatar
loopt
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 540
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:16 am

Re: Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Post by loopt » Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:43 pm

Ladik S-186/S-189?
I never used them but they look fine and are cheap.

psienide
Common Wiggler
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:57 pm
Location: Dallas, TX

Re: Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Post by psienide » Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:51 pm

I use the Klavis Logica XT for gate delays. It also does a million other things.

User avatar
mdoudoroff
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 3786
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:10 am
Location: New York City

Re: Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Post by mdoudoroff » Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:54 pm

The Malekko Quad is pretty neato.

User avatar
galanter2
Common Wiggler
Posts: 200
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:32 pm
Location: Texas A&M University
Contact:

Re: Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Post by galanter2 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:56 pm

lisa wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:29 pm
2hp Brst andMalekko Quad Gate Delay might be good options.
Thanks!

But the 2hp Brst sends out triggers not a delayed gate. The Malekko unit only delays up to 1 second (although perhaps this can be finessed by faking an input clock for its sync mode) and doesn't pay attention to the duration of the input gate.

That DIY idea is starting to look better...

User avatar
GuyaGuy
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1713
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:49 am
Location: Brooklyn | NY | USA

Re: Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Post by GuyaGuy » Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:57 pm

Some envelopes already have a delay stage. But it looks like there are about 20 options:

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/modules/b ... ection=asc

desolationjones
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 452
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Post by desolationjones » Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:05 pm

galanter2 wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:56 pm
lisa wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:29 pm
2hp Brst andMalekko Quad Gate Delay might be good options.
Thanks!

But the 2hp Brst sends out triggers not a delayed gate. The Malekko unit only delays up to 1 second (although perhaps this can be finessed by faking an input clock for its sync mode) and doesn't pay attention to the duration of the input gate.

That DIY idea is starting to look better...
Malekko unit absolutely does preserve gate duration. It's a great unit, just wish it had a gate-to-trigger mode.

User avatar
galanter2
Common Wiggler
Posts: 200
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:32 pm
Location: Texas A&M University
Contact:

Re: Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Post by galanter2 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:10 pm

Agawell wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:39 pm
mutable instruments stages?
Thanks! But that's more of an envelope generator, and it's wider than a simple gate delay needs to be. It's also about 4X the price of what I need should cost.

It could be coerced into being a gate delay (make envelopes that look like gates), but that seems like a long way around for simple gate delaying.

User avatar
rayultine
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 599
Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 12:00 am
Location: Memphis TN

Re: Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Post by rayultine » Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:12 pm


User avatar
galanter2
Common Wiggler
Posts: 200
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:32 pm
Location: Texas A&M University
Contact:

Re: Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Post by galanter2 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:24 pm

loopt wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:43 pm
Ladik S-186/S-189?
I never used them but they look fine and are cheap.
Thanks! I mentioned the S-186 as being out of stock everywhere (?), but the S-189 seems to be available. I'd rather the two channels of delay have independent inputs (like the S-186) rather than a common input (like the S-189) but that's not a deal killer. To end the output gate when the input gate ends I'd have to use an AND gate. I'd be able to set the duration, but what I wouldn't be able to do is delay the gate and then hold it for as long as the input gate was held.

I'm going to reconsider the S-189 + AND gates though. So thanks again.

User avatar
loopt
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 540
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:16 am

Re: Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Post by loopt » Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:33 pm

galanter2 wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:24 pm
I mentioned the S-186 as being out of stock everywhere (?)
:doh: Busted for not completely reading your post. :mrgreen:

User avatar
galanter2
Common Wiggler
Posts: 200
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:32 pm
Location: Texas A&M University
Contact:

Re: Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Post by galanter2 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:45 pm

psienide wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:51 pm
I use the Klavis Logica XT for gate delays. It also does a million other things.
Hey thanks! Interesting module. However, I can't see how it is used as a simple gate delay, and how all 3 end modes can be supported (off when input off, off after a set duration, off after the same duration as input).

User avatar
starthief
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 4412
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:39 am
Location: St Louis, MO
Contact:

Re: Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Post by starthief » Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:51 pm

When I feel like I need a gate delay, I use:

- Stages does it easily, when I remember
- Maths, rise time = delay amount, EOR = the delayed gate. Set fall time equal to rise time if the gate length has to match the input.
- Teletype, but that's much easier to use for trigger delays than gate delays.

User avatar
abelovesfun
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 982
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:19 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Contact:

Re: Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Post by abelovesfun » Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:52 pm

This can also be done easily with vanilla modules that you may already own - just think like a modular.
All you need is your gate to be multed in order to trigger a separate ADSR ("DELAY ADSR") in between the gate and what you want to trigger, like another ADSR ("MODULATION ADSR").
By adjusting attack on the DELAY ADSR, you will delay the rate at which voltage climbs going to the gate input of the MODULATION ADSR.
This depends of course on the gate threshold of the MODULATION ADSR, but is pretty simple.
Let me know if you have any questions.
Super Easy, Awesome DIY kits @ http://www.aisynthesis.com
modular ambient and composery music @ http://www.forcedamage.com/
https://www.facebook.com/forcedamagemusic

User avatar
GuyaGuy
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1713
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:49 am
Location: Brooklyn | NY | USA

Re: Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Post by GuyaGuy » Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:08 pm

abelovesfun wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:52 pm
This can also be done easily with vanilla modules that you may already own - just think like a modular.
All you need is your gate to be multed in order to trigger a separate ADSR ("DELAY ADSR") in between the gate and what you want to trigger, like another ADSR ("MODULATION ADSR").
By adjusting attack on the DELAY ADSR, you will delay the rate at which voltage climbs going to the gate input of the MODULATION ADSR.
This depends of course on the gate threshold of the MODULATION ADSR, but is pretty simple.
Let me know if you have any questions.
^Yep came back to say this but abelovesfun already did!

psienide
Common Wiggler
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:57 pm
Location: Dallas, TX

Re: Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Post by psienide » Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:10 pm

Hey thanks! Interesting module. However, I can't see how it is used as a simple gate delay, and how all 3 end modes can be supported (off when input off, off after a set duration, off after the same duration as input).
Yeah, it's not super clear how it works right away. It's basically a gate S&H with delay. It needs a clock in and will delay a gate signal (or pattern) by the amount of clock steps. You use a dial to adjust from 1 -128 steps. So not really a "simple gate delay." I would think you could get your desired end modes by stopping the clock input signal at the appropriate interval.

The second mode works the same way but you don't necessarily need a clock input. And without the input you wouldn't really get anything like the end modes you're looking for.

From the manual:

1. Pattern delay
This is useful to create delayed rhythmic patterns.
A regular trigger/gate at typical pattern rate is brought to the clock input.
A gate pattern is brought to the data input
The output will provide a delayed copy of the pattern but shaped with the phase and duration of the trigger/gate signal.

2. Digital delay line
This is used to arbitrarily delay a digital signal for up 5000 steps with a clock of any rate. Contrarily to the previous mode, the output signal is not reshaped according to the clock shape.
When no jack is present at the clock input, the module generates its own 1 KHz clock internally. This gives you a delay adjustable up to 5 seconds with a 1ms precision.
By maintaining the Xtra button pressed, the right half of the pot allows adjusting the delay from 1ms to beyond 5000ms. The LEDs are lit in bargraph way.

User avatar
galanter2
Common Wiggler
Posts: 200
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:32 pm
Location: Texas A&M University
Contact:

Re: Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Post by galanter2 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:21 pm

GuyaGuy wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:57 pm
Some envelopes already have a delay stage. But it looks like there are about 20 options:

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/modules/b ... ection=asc
Yes, many of these are something different, or more, than just gate delays. Once you start using envelope generators with delays to create a gate delay…which is intended to make some other envelope delay…it seems a bit strained relative to a (hypothetically proper) gate delay.

I suppose a gate delay could be made like this:

V+ below AR out ——-->
gate -> AR envelope -> comparator -> delayed gate out

A then adjusts the delay time. R=0 makes the output cutoff when the input does, other R's increase output gate length. But still missing is making the output gate time the same as the input gate time.

(EDIT - R can be adjusted so the delayed duration matches. What this can't do, however, is allow the output gate to end *before* the input gate.)

I realize I'm being pretty fussy here. But I'm coming to the conclusion that no device matches my needs.

* Long delays (10+ seconds)
* mode 1 - gate out ends when gate in ends
* mode 2 - gate out ends some (knob) duration after gate out starts
* mode 3 - gate out ends to achieve the same gate duration as gate in

For each channel of delay this would require 2 jacks (in/out), a knob, and a 3-way switch.

(thinking out loud about a DIY)
Last edited by galanter2 on Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
galanter2
Common Wiggler
Posts: 200
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:32 pm
Location: Texas A&M University
Contact:

Re: Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Post by galanter2 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:27 pm

Thanks, but this converts triggers to gates. It can't respond to the duration of the input.

User avatar
galanter2
Common Wiggler
Posts: 200
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:32 pm
Location: Texas A&M University
Contact:

Re: Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Post by galanter2 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:32 pm

starthief wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:51 pm
When I feel like I need a gate delay, I use:

- Stages does it easily, when I remember
- Maths, rise time = delay amount, EOR = the delayed gate. Set fall time equal to rise time if the gate length has to match the input.
- Teletype, but that's much easier to use for trigger delays than gate delays.
Maths could probably do it. But it's big (a 4 HP panel should be all a gate delay needs), plus this trivial concern…I hate the Make Noise aesthetic! Maybe if I got an alternative front panel somewhere.

Good suggestion though.

User avatar
galanter2
Common Wiggler
Posts: 200
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:32 pm
Location: Texas A&M University
Contact:

Re: Gate delay devices - why so few and unavailable?

Post by galanter2 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:35 pm

abelovesfun wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:52 pm
This can also be done easily with vanilla modules that you may already own - just think like a modular.
All you need is your gate to be multed in order to trigger a separate ADSR ("DELAY ADSR") in between the gate and what you want to trigger, like another ADSR ("MODULATION ADSR").
By adjusting attack on the DELAY ADSR, you will delay the rate at which voltage climbs going to the gate input of the MODULATION ADSR.
This depends of course on the gate threshold of the MODULATION ADSR, but is pretty simple.
Let me know if you have any questions.
Sorry…I more or less reiterated this in my post out of sync.

Post Reply

Return to “Eurorack Modules”