4MS Clock Dividers and other Clock Dividers

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BasariStudios
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4MS Clock Dividers and other Clock Dividers

Post by BasariStudios » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:03 pm

I need a Clock Divider, it can be advanced too if it offers it, HP or Money is not important.
I am stuck on the 4MS QCD and RCD, i need mostly for Divide/Multiply Duties wit Multiple
Outs. I have OctoController but that is another story on it self, i don't like it.
My question is, RCD with BreakOut or QCD on its own or with the Expander.
First and most i need basic divide and multiply and i know both offer a little more than
that but what will make more sense to me. Or something else?

Thanks
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Re: 4MS Clock Dividers and other Clock Dividers

Post by Artaos » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:21 pm

Both are great modules. I have QCD with expander. I think the most important questions are: do you need multiplication? I don’t think RCD can multiply, but QCD can. Also: do you need to divide multiple clock inputs? RCD has only one clock input, QCD has four.

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Re: 4MS Clock Dividers and other Clock Dividers

Post by BasariStudios » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:36 pm

Artaos wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:21 pm
Both are great modules. I have QCD with expander. I think the most important questions are: do you need multiplication? I don’t think RCD can multiply, but QCD can. Also: do you need to divide multiple clock inputs? RCD has only one clock input, QCD has four.
Thanks. I can live without Multiplications, can just send fast Clock in and
Divide and 99% of the time its only 1 Master Clock, not Multiple.
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Re: 4MS Clock Dividers and other Clock Dividers

Post by Artaos » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:50 pm

BasariStudios wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:36 pm
Artaos wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:21 pm
Both are great modules. I have QCD with expander. I think the most important questions are: do you need multiplication? I don’t think RCD can multiply, but QCD can. Also: do you need to divide multiple clock inputs? RCD has only one clock input, QCD has four.
Thanks. I can live without Multiplications, can just send fast Clock in and
Divide and 99% of the time its only 1 Master Clock, not Multiple.
In that case, RCD might be better suited since its strength is that it has more simultaneous outputs than QCD. QCD is great for “advanced” clock processing of various clocks, especially with expander, while RCD is best for having lots of divisions of a single clock.

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Re: 4MS Clock Dividers and other Clock Dividers

Post by BasariStudios » Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:04 pm

Thank You.
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Re: 4MS Clock Dividers and other Clock Dividers

Post by BasariStudios » Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:22 pm

Artaos wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:21 pm
Both are great modules. I have QCD with expander. I think the most important questions are: do you need multiplication? I don’t think RCD can multiply, but QCD can. Also: do you need to divide multiple clock inputs? RCD has only one clock input, QCD has four.
Another thing popped in my head.
Should i be looking into Tempi?
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Re: 4MS Clock Dividers and other Clock Dividers

Post by R.U.Nuts » Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:52 pm

If all you need are clock division and no multiplications I'd reccomend a pure divider since dividers are more solid. They are immediately in time while multiplers need to wait for at least two clock pulses to compute the timing which can lead to "hiccups" when you change the rate of the master clock or they will start out of phase after you stopped and restarted the master clock. And a lot of multiplers won't stop putting out signals when the incoming clock stops which can be an annoyance, too.

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Re: 4MS Clock Dividers and other Clock Dividers

Post by Arneb » Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:50 pm

BasariStudios wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:22 pm
Another thing popped in my head.
Should i be looking into Tempi?
It's probably the most flexible solution, but it doesn't look as immediate to me as the 4ms ones (and is also more expensive).

Other modules I'd consider from your description:
- A-160-1
- A-160-2
- Integra Solum
- Shakmat Time Wizard

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Re: 4MS Clock Dividers and other Clock Dividers

Post by ersatzplanet » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:03 pm

Be aware that many dividers are not the same as each other. They typically fall into two camps I call "Musical" and "Mathematical". Musical ones understand the "downbeat" while the Mathematical ones don't. The way you can easily tell is that when given a reset command, in a Mathematical one, all outs go low, in a musical, all outs go high. This is only important if you use dividers on sequencers and want to do verse/chorus like command and want them to happen on the first beat of the phrase and not on the second.

Some dividers allow both actions or have internal jumpers to make them act a certain way.
Musical Dividers:
Musical-Clock-divider.jpg
Mathematical Dividers:
Mathematical-Clock-Dividers.jpg
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Re: 4MS Clock Dividers and other Clock Dividers

Post by scottmoon » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:23 pm

Another one to consider is the Animodule TikTok
Has a switch for mathematical or musical division/multiplication.
http://www.animodule.com/product/tiktok

Great little module in 4HP and I just happen to have one for sale :-O
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Re: 4MS Clock Dividers and other Clock Dividers

Post by Ronbo56 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:04 am

I learn something valuable on this forum Every. Damn. Day. Thanks!

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Re: 4MS Clock Dividers and other Clock Dividers

Post by BasariStudios » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:29 pm

Thank you All! A lot to chew from, i am still on OctoController but i don't like it,
it just does not do what i need, i struggled with it a lot.
R.U.Nuts wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:52 pm
And a lot of multiplers won't stop putting out signals when the incoming clock stops which can be an annoyance, too.
And you made me wonder something. For 3 years i have been struggling with OctoController exactly
with that, it just won't stop with everything else. AD Support told me ,,ah, its normal, every Module
does that because they don't know when to stop'' while at the same time WoggleBug, URA 2, o_C
and many other Modules which i have and run on Clock stop exactly at the same time.
ersatzplanet wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:03 pm
Be aware that many dividers are not the same as each other. They typically fall into two camps I call "Musical" and "Mathematical". Musical ones understand the "downbeat" while the Mathematical ones don't. The way you can easily tell is that when given a reset command, in a Mathematical one, all outs go low, in a musical, all outs go high. This is only important if you use dividers on sequencers and want to do verse/chorus like command and want them to happen on the first beat of the phrase and not on the second.
Some dividers allow both actions or have internal jumpers to make them act a certain way.
I will have to research into that and take that into Consideration, i have to figure out which
one is what and also how i use them and what i need them for.
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Re: 4MS Clock Dividers and other Clock Dividers

Post by Arneb » Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:05 am

BasariStudios wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:29 pm
And you made me wonder something. For 3 years i have been struggling with OctoController exactly
with that, it just won't stop with everything else. AD Support told me ,,ah, its normal, every Module
does that because they don't know when to stop'' while at the same time WoggleBug, URA 2, o_C
and many other Modules which i have and run on Clock stop exactly at the same time.
By "every module" they meant "every clock multiplier", methinks. The problem with clock multipliers is that they have to infer knowledge about future events (the additional intermediate ticks between two input ticks) from past events (the distance between prior input ticks). That's not an exact science and can result in stuff like you're describing - basically, the multiplier outputs intermediate ticks based on the last bpm value it saw, and waits for the next input tick to recalibrate, but the next input tick never comes because you've stopped the input clock.

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Re: 4MS Clock Dividers and other Clock Dividers

Post by R.U.Nuts » Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:36 pm

Arneb wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:05 am
BasariStudios wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:29 pm
And you made me wonder something. For 3 years i have been struggling with OctoController exactly
with that, it just won't stop with everything else. AD Support told me ,,ah, its normal, every Module
does that because they don't know when to stop'' while at the same time WoggleBug, URA 2, o_C
and many other Modules which i have and run on Clock stop exactly at the same time.
By "every module" they meant "every clock multiplier", methinks. The problem with clock multipliers is that they have to infer knowledge about future events (the additional intermediate ticks between two input ticks) from past events (the distance between prior input ticks). That's not an exact science and can result in stuff like you're describing - basically, the multiplier outputs intermediate ticks based on the last bpm value it saw, and waits for the next input tick to recalibrate, but the next input tick never comes because you've stopped the input clock.
Exactly. And for the same reason multipliers can't start in sync with an external clock which makes them a PITA to use when you use a drummachine or a DAW with a full set of transport controls as your master clock.

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Re: 4MS Clock Dividers and other Clock Dividers

Post by ersatzplanet » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:24 pm

The only good way to "stop" a divided clock train is after the divider. Since to divide, the unit needs to count input clocks to figure when to output, it will always be that many clocks behind.

Logic is the answer. I would think an AND gate after the clock set to only pass the divided clocks when AND'ed with a gate, would work. A manual gate from a toggle switch feeding ANDs on all your clock outs will do them all at once. A manual toggle can send the reset command when switching off. Worth a try. Doesn't hurt to have some logic modules in your rig too.
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Re: 4MS Clock Dividers and other Clock Dividers

Post by Jaypee » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:32 pm

Thank you James/ersatzplanet

Just by looking at outputs I can see how mathematical dividers can be so musical!
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Re: 4MS Clock Dividers and other Clock Dividers

Post by BasariStudios » Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:04 pm

Thank you everyone, this was VERY educational.
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Re: 4MS Clock Dividers and other Clock Dividers

Post by StrangeAttraction » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:29 am

A-160-2 is both Mathematical and Musical via a switch, is that right?
ersatzplanet wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:03 pm
Be aware that many dividers are not the same as each other. They typically fall into two camps I call "Musical" and "Mathematical". Musical ones understand the "downbeat" while the Mathematical ones don't. The way you can easily tell is that when given a reset command, in a Mathematical one, all outs go low, in a musical, all outs go high. This is only important if you use dividers on sequencers and want to do verse/chorus like command and want them to happen on the first beat of the phrase and not on the second.

Some dividers allow both actions or have internal jumpers to make them act a certain way.
Musical Dividers:
Musical-Clock-divider.jpg

Mathematical Dividers:
Mathematical-Clock-Dividers.jpg

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Re: 4MS Clock Dividers and other Clock Dividers

Post by helix » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:10 am

I love the simplicity of the doepfer a160-2

It also has switches on front for sending gates or triggers, gates super handy for controlling something like a Vc switch

It also has a switch to change clock outputs to triplets and other odd numbered divisions. Having two Of them one on each setting would be great

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Re: 4MS Clock Dividers and other Clock Dividers

Post by ersatzplanet » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:51 pm

StrangeAttraction wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:29 am
A-160-2 is both Mathematical and Musical via a switch, is that right?
The A-160-2 has jumpers inside that invert the different output divisions. This basically changes them from mathematical to musical. The cool thing is that you can set them different for different outputs. Also the unit has front switches for switching between rising edge input clock detection, and falling edge input clock detection. With two units switched opposite from each other, a flip-flop action can be made. Also if a variable width pulse is used, and the unit is set for falling edge detection, you can make that unit be delayed by the pulse width of the master clock (one reacting to the front rising edge, the other to the delayed pulse width falling edge). Lots of possibilities with that module. Much nicer than the original A-160
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