FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

Post by mdoudoroff » Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:00 pm

Ras Thavas wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:01 pm
Can curves can be edited, or new ones loaded beyond the initial set of complex curves provided?
From the Kickstarter:
(15 were created for test purposes, many more will be available and a curve creator is in development on the firmware roadmap)
I don’t think he’s shown us all the curves he’s got so far, so we don’t have much of an idea, yet, what kind of diversity is possible (or useful).

----

The more I look at this thing, the more it seems desperately lacking in inputs. The three CV inputs to the modulation matrix might be adequate for modulation duties, but w̶e̶ I need transport inputs: reset, preset nav and maybe start/stop. :hmm:
Kummer wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:41 pm
PLEASE address some of these questions before the early bird goes.
That would be nice. The early bird window seems awfully brief. Although I also note that the price differences aren’t huge.

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

Post by Ras Thavas » Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:21 pm

Thanks mdoudoroff, missed the curve information on the Kickstarter- that part sounds good!

I'd agree with the concerns about 3 CV inputs, if any of them have to be used reseting to external clock. On the other hand, the mod matrix and 4 macro pots alleviate that to some degree.

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

Post by Funky40 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:10 pm

mdoudoroff wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:00 pm
The more I look at this thing, the more it seems desperately lacking in inputs.
agreed !
i think the same.

it has clock in,
imho it also needs a start and probably a reset in at least
Last edited by Funky40 on Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

Post by Funky40 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:11 pm

double
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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

Post by behndy » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:09 am

while i would be okayyyyyy with dedicated clock and reset ins, mosf sequencers have them, i'm confused about a Start in. i use Pam's to clock my system, send separate gates out for Click and Reset to a FLXS1 and Metron, have never needed or used a Start. when i hit the button on Pam's to start her gates, everything else starts.

am i missing something?

(honest question, no sarcasm, i know tone is IMPOSSIBLE to read over Internet Word Based Conversations)
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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

Post by nangu » Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:14 am

A sequencer that only outputs 16th notes works fine when starting on the first pulse of a 16th note clock.

This thing can create ridiculously faster things than 16th notes, so it needs to ‘learn’ the tempo before outputting anything. Otherwise, it will output a garbled mess (or nothing at all) until it figures out the tempo and can multiply that onwards into glorious absurdity. A ‘Start’ input would be one way of delaying output until the output was valid.

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

Post by nangu » Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:28 am

Another option would be for you to tell it what tempo you’re planning to run at, and for it to believe you until it has heard 2 or 3 clock pulses that it can average together.

Alternately, you could give it a tempo and set it to run on internal clock, use a pulse on the clock input to start it, and then just retrigger it frequently enough that the drift wouldn’t become noticeable.


Yeah, more CV inputs would be fantastic..

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

Post by behndy » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:29 am

innnnnteresting. thank you for the explanation!
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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

Post by nangu » Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:20 am

It would be awesome if this thing had the option to run at ‘24 pulses per quarter note’ for people who can supply that.

24ppq is the same as ‘DIN Sync’, and is well supported by tons of modules. Far more precise than 16th note clock..

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

Post by Funky40 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:52 am

behndy wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:09 am
........, i'm confused about a Start in.
yes, me too :lol: .......but i thought i mention it also. ;)
( since your post came behind the mine)



all i know is:
i want to start my main sequenzer ( digitakt + FH-2), ...stopp it, start it again.......
and keeping all in sync and keeping the relation of all sequenzers !
everything else is a pita on the long run.


JFYI: I think some sequenzers just call it "start" what is called "reset" on another sequenzer :hmm:
at least my dotcom Q119 has a start jack, ....and what i patch to it from the FH-2 ( midi2CV) is also called "start" in the FH-2 Editor.
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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

Post by VCOscillator » Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:10 am

Apologies that a lot of questions have built up yesterday, I will go through and answer all questions and edit this post now with replies to everyone! Edit: answers posted below
Last edited by VCOscillator on Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

Post by Kattefjaes » Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:12 am

This looks wild and very attractive, but also something of a first cut.

The lack of inputs, given the size of the unit, feels like something that is a bit less than optimal. A start/stop in particular and defaulting to 24ppqn would make sense. If it were my decision, I'd drop maybe half of the outputs and move them to an expander module to increase flexibility.

It looks cool as hell and I want it, but maybe I want a future version two more. It feels like I'd be spending money on something I know I want to replace from the get-go, if that makes sense.

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

Post by VCOscillator » Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:54 am

Thanks everyone for the support, the campaign got off to a great start! Sorry that I didn't get to answer these questions yesterday.

Thanks for all of the questions. There seem to be quite a few regarding external clocking. So firstly, apologies that it is unclear in the documentation as to how this will work. Of course this is of utmost importance, there is a dedicated external clock input next to the 3 CV input jacks. Reset will be mappable to any CV input - I will create a better interface diagram and upload it today.

The 4 buttons on the UI default to start/stop, enter/exit macros screen, enter/exit preset screen & channel select, they are currently labeled as 1-4 as I wanted the option of adding the buttons as mappable to control parameters and optionally moving screen navigation to the UI in a future firmware update but I have missed making this clear in the documentation, apologies!
Jaypee wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:17 am
Can the space between the gate be modulated to add some swing?
Like you would delay the 2nd and 4th gate on a 16th notes pattern.
Hi Jaypee, thank you for the support! The kind of swing that you are describing is on the firmware roadmap as a global option but is achievable now by, for example, mapping curvature value to a macro pot and using 8 x 2/16th steps with a density of 2 on each step - now you have smooth control of swing in the manner that you describe with the mapped pot.
mdoudoroff wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:53 am
At the moment, the whole preset side of the project seems vague. Will you be able to switch presets with CV? Will you be able to cue a preset change to happen seamlessly at the end of a bar? How will all that sort of thing work?

None of the current examples appear to demonstrate external clocking. I see the paragraph about syncing to a DAW. That implies that two of the four inputs are now consumed with clock and reset, leaving only two inputs for CV. If I need another cv input just to switch presets (above, if that will even be an option) then I’m down to one lowly input for modulation. And what about start/stop?

This module is quite large, and a great deal of space seems to have been dedicated to the macro knobs, implying that playing those is a major part of the experience. I’m not seeing much of that in the demos, so I’m a bit unclear on their actual value or why four is the right number.
Hi mdoudoroff, thanks for the questions. I will answer these in order for you:
In the current firmware the preset functionality is basic. You can only save and load presets currently. This aspect of the design could use some love in future firmware updates.
I can make demonstration videos on clocking the module externally and examples of using the macro pots if you would like to see that, functionality is the same in ext mode as internal clock mode other than sequencer steps advancing based on the external clock input and the sequence optionally resetting via a mapped reset input. BPM is calculated based on an averaged measurement of time between incoming clocks and it has been extremely solid in testing.
Regarding 4 Macro pots, I wanted the design to be flexible. You can either use the macro pots as dedicated parameter controls or more creatively if you prefer, for example, you could map each of these pots to control a different parameter on a global or per-channel basis for a more tactile experience (maybe pot1 controls global density, pot 2 global curvature, pot 3 global gate length, pot 4 global humanize % etc). I felt that this was a better system than dedicated pots to allow flexibility.
Ras Thavas wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:01 pm
Can curves can be edited, or new ones loaded beyond the initial set of complex curves provided?

Presets- 12 seems limited for this unless they are they easy to quick reshape in practice. You've mentioned this can be expanded, can you speak to the certainty of expansion (also how many additional slots,) as well as preset expansion's position on the upgrade timeline?
Hi Ras Thavas, the 15 Curves are a completely arbitrary number. They are just how many hand crafted curves that are currently in the firmware. The curves themselves are small in terms of storage space and there is room for a lot of expansion. The real goal is to allow user created curves via the UI. Everything listed on the campaign page is the state of the firmware now. I will be expanding the firmware and am happy to include any community requests if viable but I wanted to be clear on the campaign what state the firmware is in now to manage expectations at launch and ask for support in developing the project to its full potential.

Preset slots are limited currently but they are simple and quick to access with a dedicated interface button to enter/exit the preset UI screen. I have listed a roadmap at the bottom of this post also.

I'd agree with the concerns about 3 CV inputs, if any of them have to be used reseting to external clock. On the other hand, the mod matrix and 4 macro pots alleviate that to some degree.
Thank you for the feedback and I understand the concern, wigglers need CV inputs! Each CV input can be scaled, inverted and mapped to any/all of the CVable parameters in any proportion. In practice for rhythm composition this has been very flexible, even with a limited number of CV inputs, I can look at the number of CV inputs in the design again, the expander idea could be a nice option (maybe 2 hp of jacks) or perhaps an additional dedicated reset input and 1 more mappable CV input would be enough. I will do some testing but I don't want promise anything that is not in the firmware right now unless I 100% know that it will be included before shipping.
nangu wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:20 am
It would be awesome if this thing had the option to run at ‘24 pulses per quarter note’ for people who can supply that.

24ppq is the same as ‘DIN Sync’, and is well supported by tons of modules. Far more precise than 16th note clock..
Hi Nagu! This is top of the firmware roadmap, this is the 1 feature that I can guarantee will be fleshed out and implemented before shipping.
nangu wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:14 am
A sequencer that only outputs 16th notes works fine when starting on the first pulse of a 16th note clock.

This thing can create ridiculously faster things than 16th notes, so it needs to ‘learn’ the tempo before outputting anything. Otherwise, it will output a garbled mess (or nothing at all) until it figures out the tempo and can multiply that onwards into glorious absurdity. A ‘Start’ input would be one way of delaying output until the output was valid.
nangu wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:28 am
Another option would be for you to tell it what tempo you’re planning to run at, and for it to believe you until it has heard 2 or 3 clock pulses that it can average together.

Alternately, you could give it a tempo and set it to run on internal clock, use a pulse on the clock input to start it, and then just retrigger it frequently enough that the drift wouldn’t become noticeable.


Yeah, more CV inputs would be fantastic..
Thanks for the suggestions Nagu. A new BPM currently takes a few clock ticks to stabilise in external clock mode. My solution is to monitor the incoming clock and if the clock stops to preserve the last known BPM until a new valid BPM is detected. This will allow the sequencer to start from a stopped state with the correct BPM value. A solid clock of 16th notes has been extremely reliable during development but a 24 ppq option will be available as a config option. The presets screen will host any additional global configuration options.

Future firmware roadmap:


Firmware:
  • Expand External Clock options (24 ppq) - this will be before shipping
    General UI Navigation polishing - before shipping
    Global Shuffle - before shipping
    Curve Creator (user curves created in the UI) - after shipping most likely but number of available curves will increase before then
    Test Midi IO limits over USB (not tested yet)
Potential Circuit/Firmware additions:
  • Variable voltage outputs - testing now
    Expand CV Inputs
If you would like to suggest any features I would welcome the feedback, thanks again for everyone's support, I will be here to answer any questions!
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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

Post by mdoudoroff » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:13 am

Thanks for the answers. My top suggestion is this:

Because hardware is hardware, I think you should take one more look and see if you can manage to add dedicated jacks for reset and start/stop input. (pure just trigger inputs). If you can, then that frees the three CV inputs to just be CV inputs, and everyone will be happier in the long run.

An alternative to reset and start/stop inputs would be separate start/reset and stop. Both approaches have their advantages.

You’ve got plenty of panel space. Of course, I have no idea what the circuit board is like underneath, but the module is already huge and I would hate to see an expander—even 2hp—just for core transport functions.

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

Post by Kummer » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:38 am

I agree with mdoudoroff. You still have some time and even if it's a little late, it would be much better to not have to buy any expansion modules in the future. I'm not sure what that would do to your costs for this project, but it would be better in the long run.
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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

Post by VanEck » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:57 am

Backed! I dig the idea of a 2hp expander giving a dedicated reset and more CV. The thought of that extra functionality sounds good to me, but I know not everyone will need/want it so it makes sense to have it as optional like a small expander for those who would rather save on HP. New stretch goal perhaps?
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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

Post by VCOscillator » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:34 am

Thanks everyone for the excellent feedback! I think this kind of community involvement is where Kickstarter projects shine and I am very grateful for the input. I absolutely see the benefits of dedicated reset and start stop gate inputs.

In calculating delivery date, I set aside this month and March for final layout tweaks and final V1 firmware features that will ship to backers so there is time to make adjustments to the design.

I have reviewed the design files and there is space in the budget for an additional 2 gate inputs (the budget impact is minimal as they will be exact duplicates of the existing gate input circuit), PCB layout space and available pins are also ok. These additions keep the 3 CV inputs available for modulation duties at all times. There is also space to add the jacks without cluttering the aesthetics and I think separation of Gate and CV inputs works well from a UI perspective. The 3 CV and Gate inputs would be on opposite sides of the interface:
Expanded Inputs.png
I will need to make sure that the additions are OK with current backers but I would imagine that the additional functionality would be welcome. In future firmware updates the additional gate inputs could be mapped to control parameters if not being used for transportation control.
VanEck wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:57 am
Backed! I dig the idea of a 2hp expander giving a dedicated reset and more CV. The thought of that extra functionality sounds good to me, but I know not everyone will need/want it so it makes sense to have it as optional like a small expander for those who would rather save on HP. New stretch goal perhaps?
Thank you for the support VanEck! I think the above solution could be a nice compromise without expanding HP. In final layout tweaks any viable free pins could be routed to a header to leave options open in the future for expansion but I believe that when users get a chance to patch with the module they will find 3 CV inputs more than adequate for most tasks.
UI ELEMENTS long.png
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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

Post by Funky40 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:45 am

this is super great. much appreciated !



nevertheless do i say this:
i personally would directly add another CV input for a total of 4.
since you have to redo the PCB and panel anyway.
....not knowing the module and how it works, but knowing how we think when patching modulars do i find even 4CV inputs to be on the lower side,
and i anyway would allways think in groups of 4.
4 CV inputs would mean one independent CV per track, for 4 tracks for example.
This looks not like overdoing something ;)
personally i even would prefer here the slightly asymmetrical optics that it would create

.....i´m not complaining, just taking the chance to add my thoughts !
its much appreciated to see people doing these type of efforts !
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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

Post by cackland » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:07 pm

cackland wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:03 pm
Just out of curiosity... is the ARM Cortex-M7 embedded directly or via something like the Teensy 4.0?
Just following up with this question?

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

Post by mdoudoroff » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:13 pm

Ok, I will go ahead and back the project.
Funky40 wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:45 am
i personally would directly add another CV input for a total of 4.
Like you, I feel there is no such thing as “too much” cv control. However, some obvious reasons not to add a fourth cv jack to this design: (1) there’s probably no room on the mod matrix UI for an additional column, (2) it’s a mod matrix, so he’s probably right that three inputs is already quite a bit if they’re not being hijacked for transport control, and (3) unlike you and me, there are a lot of folks around here who have serious psychological issues that are—God only knows why—triggered by asymmetry. :lol:

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

Post by VanEck » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:46 pm

Nice. I dig the proposed gate input additions. It's hard to say without actually having my hands on one, but I imagine I'll be utilizing all 3 of those gate inputs and likely all 3 of those CV inputs, pretty much in every patch. Currently I am using 2x GRIDs in Euclidean mode to do some of these duties, and I typically have something jacked into all the inputs on both give the patches life and finely control clock and resets. I hate the fact that GRIDS can't accept a 1 to 1 clock, and lacks a start/stop input. Very happy to see FLUX will have this functionality.
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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

Post by dubiousphil » Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:06 pm

This looks super interesting, I have one question that I'm not sure you already answered. As I understand it, the demos on the Kickstarter were made just using the Assimilator and the Flux, but how has your use of it looked while developing the module? (Assuming you had time to do some playing of course :mrgreen: ) Any patches you particularly enjoyed or patches it really shone in? To be honest, I'm already in love with the thing but I'm really interested in what you enjoy most about it.

I can already see it sitting besides my ER-301 with each channel hooked up to a granular unit, that could be a great combo.

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

Post by Funky40 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:13 pm

mdoudoroff wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:13 pm
(3) unlike you and me, there are a lot of folks around here who have serious psychological issues that are—God only knows why—triggered by asymmetry. :lol:
lol,

well, the workaround would be to add a fourth jack also on the clocking/trigger side.
i´m shure there could be a use for a #4 on that side too /everybody happy, hehe ;)

not shure on the "menu issue".
i´ve not thought that far.........;)


anyway, i´m excitet to see such thing happen ! its a great addition to euroland.
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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

Post by Ras Thavas » Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:16 pm

Allright, I'm in, just under the wire.

I'm especially impressed with the response to input from this forum, particularly the updating of hardware. That bodes well for continued software development. Looking forward to this...

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer Launching Soon on Kickstarter

Post by dubiousphil » Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:49 pm

Ras Thavas wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:16 pm
Allright, I'm in, just under the wire.
Same here, the demos on soundcloud convinced me.

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