FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

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blipson
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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

Post by blipson » Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:39 am

Sweetfiltersweep wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:52 am
Sounding great. :-)
People are too kind! As you see from the photo, I stole FriendlyVoice's idea of using a Befaco VCMC to interface with my MIDI gear. It's not an inexpensive setup, but it's a very compact way to improvise sequencing as if you're playing an instrument, as opposed to your standard 16-stepper. Sweet spots of sequencing just seem to crop up naturally.

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

Post by Sweetfiltersweep » Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:16 pm

[/quote]
People are too kind! As you see from the photo, I stole FriendlyVoice's idea of using a Befaco VCMC to interface with my MIDI gear. It's not an inexpensive setup, but it's a very compact way to improvise sequencing as if you're playing an instrument, as opposed to your standard 16-stepper. Sweet spots of sequencing just seem to crop up naturally.
[/quote]

Befaco VCMC is a keeper, imho. As much as I love modular gear, hearing what Flux and VCMC can do with the lamest plugin is a real revelation. :party:

You are so right about the sweet spots...

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

Post by nrg242 » Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:31 pm

how is the latency when using Flux with VCMC? and does it drop a noticeable amount of triggers?

am considering getting a VCMC to control an Elektron Analog Rytm II (since i can't seem to decide on bitbox micro vs assimil8or in the rack). Flux into an ER-301 is fun and all but by no means immediate in terms of setting up a drum rack.

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

Post by Sweetfiltersweep » Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:37 pm

nrg242 wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:31 pm
how is the latency when using Flux with VCMC? and does it drop a noticeable amount of triggers?
I don’t know the exact latency, but regarding the triggers the video below can be informative.


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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

Post by nrg242 » Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:55 pm

Thanks for the quick turnaround on that video! very interesting. VCMC deals pretty well with the trigger stream. i've never actually tried such dense midi notes within the DAW so nothing to really compare to, possibly the vst not being able to handle super high density either. regardless, looks pretty good.

if i get a VCMC i'll test out some latency (which may of course be due to a number of factors regarding the DAW rather than VCMC itself). just trying to keep drums in sync when using a mix of sources between modules and VST.

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

Post by Sweetfiltersweep » Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:52 pm

nrg242 wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:55 pm
Thanks for the quick turnaround on that video! very interesting. VCMC deals pretty well with the trigger stream. i've never actually tried such dense midi notes within the DAW so nothing to really compare to, possibly the vst not being able to handle super high density either. regardless, looks pretty good.

if i get a VCMC i'll test out some latency (which may of course be due to a number of factors regarding the DAW rather than VCMC itself). just trying to keep drums in sync when using a mix of sources between modules and VST.
You are welcome. :-)

VCMC has some limits:
A9E416BD-8002-4AAD-9CF4-967ADFFB71D9.jpeg
Then you have to take midi bandwidth into account and maybe the performance of your DAW.
Maybe with MIDI 2.0...

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

Post by blipson » Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:14 pm

Sweetfiltersweep wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:16 pm
Befaco VCMC is a keeper
Any comparisons with Eloquencer when used in conjunction with its MIDI expansion?

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

Post by jkanizzle » Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:47 pm

Holy crap it's Christmas in February. Thank you so much Barry, excited to dive into this tonight.

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

Post by Sweetfiltersweep » Thu Feb 11, 2021 3:58 am

[/quote]
Any comparisons with Eloquencer when used in conjunction with its MIDI expansion?
[/quote]

Maybe the best comparison is this video.

Can Eloquencer sound like that with a deceptively short 8 step sequence?



Btw, I do love my Eloquencer, but Flux and Eloquencer are radically different. ;)

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

Post by mikel » Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:10 am

there's some comparison with the FLXS1
Zetaohm ? Thanks

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

Post by blipson » Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:18 am

Sweetfiltersweep wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 3:58 am
blipson wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:14 pm
Sweetfiltersweep wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:16 pm
Befaco VCMC is a keeper
Any comparisons with Eloquencer when used in conjunction with its MIDI expansion?
Maybe the best comparison is this video...I do love my Eloquencer, but Flux and Eloquencer are radically different. ;)
There's no actual Eloquencer in that video. Since you have both, any comparison you would like to make? You say you find them very different. In what senses? Do you have the Eloquencer' MIDI expansion? What do you find more useful about one than the other, etc.

ADDED: To be honest, from the manual, I'm seeing exactly one benefit to the Eloquencer: 8 CV's to Flux's 4, but Flux seems like so much more in every other respect.
Last edited by blipson on Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

Post by Marizu » Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:21 am

Sweetfiltersweep wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 3:58 am
Can Eloquencer sound like that with a deceptively short 8 step sequence?



Btw, I do love my Eloquencer, but Flux and Eloquencer are radically different. ;)
To be fair, he does load several 8 step sequences during this performance. There is a sequence load at about 1:06, for example.

Flux functions completely differently from other sequencers. It is a real visonary paradigm shift, and Friendly Noise has an incredible command of it.
It stuns me how much variation I can get from a one step sequence, with judicious mapping of the controls.

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

Post by blipson » Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:28 am

Yes, I understand Flux because I have one and have been using it. I'm asking if there's anyone with experience using an Eloquencer who can compare beyond saying that it's different. I mean, I already know they're different (hence my question).

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

Post by Sweetfiltersweep » Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:11 am

[/quote]

To be fair, he does load several 8 step sequences during this performance. There is a sequence load at about 1:06, for example.

Flux functions completely differently from other sequencers. It is a real visonary paradigm shift, and Friendly Noise has an incredible command of it.
It stuns me how much variation I can get from a one step sequence, with judicious mapping of the controls.
[/quote]

What I mean is, there is no more than 8 steps in every moment. :-)

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

Post by Sweetfiltersweep » Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:26 am

blipson wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:28 am
Yes, I understand Flux because I have one and have been using it. I'm asking if there's anyone with experience using an Eloquencer who can compare beyond saying that it's different. I mean, I already know they're different (hence my question).
The differences are way too big. I had started to write down some differences but I realised any of my sentences would give you the right answer, so I delete the message. You have really to see the list of functions and decide what is more interesting for your music and workflow.

In the shortest way:

Flus is really revolutionary. Eloquencer is great, but no revolutionary.
Flux is pattern oriented. Eloquencer is pattern or song oriented.
Melodic on Flux can be slow, but the options are incredible. Programming of melodies on Eloquencer is faster, specially with EME.
Flux has only 4 channels. Eloquencer has 8 channels.
Flux has more trigger outputs than Eloquencer.
Step mode on Flux is only forward. Eloquencer has many modes.
Detail programming of individual steps in Flux is unsurpassed. On Eloquencer is good, but very limited compared to Flux.
Flux is in constant development. No updates for Eloquencer in a long time.
The display on Flux is small and you have to work a lot with it. Two displays on Eloquencer makes easy to see what’s going on...

Those are basic differences, but because Flux is unique, every interested person should check if the functionality and workflow fits its needs.

Even personal differences matter: I’m shortsighted and have no problem reading the small Flux display. For some people, that display could be a nightmare. It’s up to you to decide.

Hope that helps a little. :-)

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

Post by blipson » Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:52 am

Thanks. I guess my personal reaction is, aside from the Eloquencer's 8 channels vs. Flux's 4, none of the Eloquencer's other differences makes much difference to me. And then, as you said, the bottom line is that Flux is revolutionary. I expect, also, Flux could be used in a conservative way if necessary so that the Eloquencer, at best, just seems like a subset of Flux. If you have an example of a situation where you'd strongly prefer Eloquencer over Flux, that would be interesting to hear. Changing direction of the sequence, yeah, I guess might be nice, but I wonder if you have a more dramatic example?

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

Post by Marizu » Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:00 am

I don't have Eloquencer, but my friend has one.
Eloquencer (and other traditional sequencers) gives you very precise voltage control over specific notes, but less control over rhythmic subtlety. You can create any specific melody that you can imagine with Eloquencer.
Flux is geared towards rhythmic control, but can also produce control voltages. You probably can't produce any specific melody with Flux, but you can quantise the voltages to chosen notes.
Personally, I think that Flux works well in conjunction with a more traditional sequencer.

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

Post by Sweetfiltersweep » Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:27 am

Right now, Eloquencer wins if you want more channels, bigger step number using pattern chain, song mode, easy of programming specially with EME and two displays on board which really help with an overview of what you are doing. The probability parameters can get you easily into non static rhythms. Same for the CV LFO mode: Having 8 tempo synced LFO’s with different waveforms, clock divisions and length per channel make Eloquencer an incredible experimental sequencer and a great source of interesting modulations, too.

Then again, some of that advantages are not that clear: Flux can output up to 16X64 triggers per channel, and go as slow as 1 BPM. But do you reallly need that? We’re going into pure experimental territory here, so the comparison with Eloquencer is orange vs apples. Programming a 4/4 dance pattern with Flux is easy, but it is like going to buy the newspaper with a Ferrari.

Some of Eloquencer’s advantages over Flux can maybe be levelled with firmware updates, like the lack of advance modes or an overview of all four channels at once. Barry really listens to the opinions and needs from the users.

The easy but not unexpensive way is to get two sequencers at some time. No sequencer is perfect. Something more straight and something more deep and experimental. Check out specs and workflow. Gather opinions from the forums and videos, but ultimately you have to decide what you need. That’s why I insist in reading the manuals. No post here can make people understand everything what Eloquencer and Flux can do for you. No post here can make people understand how innovative Flux is. They are both great in a very different way.

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

Post by blipson » Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:27 am

Marizu wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:00 am
Personally, I think that Flux works well in conjunction with a more traditional sequencer.
Yeah, I've thought that the combo might be useful, but I'm concerned (in advance) that the Eloquencer's square rhythms will just end up being an annoying rather than desirable companion to the Flux's rhythmic language. In that case, being able to trigger melodic lines in the traditional way just wouldn't be worth their vibe-killing rhythms. I'm also thinking, though, that slowing down the Eloquencer to one trigger every 2-3 measures, or using it for other one-off or sparse triggering, would be useful for certain kinds of accompanying voices without creating a clashing square rhythm. That's a pretty limited use, though, in view of the cost of Eloquencer+MIDI expansion.

@Sweetfiltersweep: Yes, I've read the manuals and have experience with both. I'm at the stage of seeing what other people think so that I can think through what I think. For me, I've only ever gotten limited use out of a "square" sequencer because I just don't like making music with that feel. I like listening just fine, just not making. But then I got this wild thought of how the Eloquencer might be as a complement to Flux. I'm sure I'll try it for myself, but I'm also pretty sure I'm going to end up with two Fluxes at some point. I mean, that damn VCMC has eight inputs...

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

Post by Sweetfiltersweep » Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:37 am

[quote=Marizu post_id=3459235 time=1613044846 user_id=32934]
You probably can't produce any specific melody with Flux, but you can quantise the voltages to chosen notes.
Personally, I think that Flux works well in conjunction with a more traditional sequencer.
[/quote]

I’m sorry to say that this is not right. Flux can produce every note from 0 to 8 volts in milivolts steps. So you can produce every microtonal scale using the fixed output voltage per step. Eloquencer can’t do that.

Also, using the sample and hold voltages per step (or per trigger!) you can set an user programmable scale from 1 to 24 notes, with free choice of how much notes and which notes will be active, with other without quantisation. Even more, you can quantise the outputs of the envelopes or LFOs to every user scale you can imagine. Eloquencer can’t do that.

As said before, the level of control and detail with Flux is simply unique. Then again, getting such level of detail with Flux can be extremely time consuming, to say it with kind words. With Eloquencer, you have less options but the workflow is possibly faster. :-)
Last edited by Sweetfiltersweep on Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

Post by Sweetfiltersweep » Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:45 am

[/quote]
Yeah, I've thought that the combo might be useful, but I'm concerned (in advance) that the Eloquencer's square rhythms will just end up being an annoying rather than desirable companion to the Flux's rhythmic language. In that case, being able to trigger melodic lines in the traditional way just wouldn't be worth their vibe-killing rhythms. I'm also thinking, though, that slowing down the Eloquencer to one trigger every 2-3 measures, or using it for other one-off or sparse triggering, would be useful for certain kinds of accompanying voices without creating a clashing square rhythm. That's a pretty limited use, though, in view of the cost of Eloquencer+MIDI expansion.

@Sweetfiltersweep: Yes, I've read the manuals and have experience with both. I'm at the stage of seeing what other people think so that I can think through what I think. For me, I've only ever gotten limited use out of a "square" sequencer because I just don't like making music with that feel. I like listening just fine, just not making. But then I got this wild thought of how the Eloquencer might be as a complement to Flux. I'm sure I'll try it for myself, but I'm also pretty sure I'm going to end up with two Fluxes at some point. I mean, that damn VCMC has eight inputs...
[/quote]

I wouldn’t call the Eloquencer square. Probability, ratchet, different clock and length per channel, modulatable nudge of notes...Those features weren’t common in sequencers some time before. And, if desired, the square-ness of Eloquencer can be a good thing. Sometimes I just need a eight step sequence with added delay in the old Berliner Schule mode to be happy. :-)

It’s just that Flux is the next level in detailed programmability and modulation depth.

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

Post by blipson » Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:09 am

I hear you---"square" was for lack of a better term---but consider, for example, Eloquencer's ratchet mode: nine types, all duplet or triplet. Jeez, that's mighty slim pickin's if you ask me. If limitations are good, then this is too much of a good thing...

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

Post by Marizu » Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:00 am

Sweetfiltersweep wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:37 am
Marizu wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:00 am
You probably can't produce any specific melody with Flux, but you can quantise the voltages to chosen notes.
Personally, I think that Flux works well in conjunction with a more traditional sequencer.
I’m sorry to say that this is not right. Flux can produce every note from 0 to 8 volts in milivolts steps. So you can produce every microtonal scale using the fixed output voltage per step. Eloquencer can’t do that.
As you say, Flux has incredible control of voltages. It just does things in a different way.
What I meant was that Eloquencer has patterns that are up to 64 specific, individual, notes. This means that you could probably play a melody, like the theme to Star Wars with it (I definitely could with my Nerdseq). I'd struggle to get this out of Flux. This is not a criticism of Flux, just an acknowledgment that its focus is different.

I have been pairing it with Generator+ and a sequential switch. This gives me up to 48 distinct notes that can be clocked by Flux's unique rhythmical power.

I am hoping that it is possible to have a channel of Flux generating a temporally modulated 24ppqn clock that can be followed by another sequencer. This would bring Flux grooves to more traditionally melodically oriented sequencers. My Nerdseq doesn't swing easily. I'm hoping that I can get this to work with it.
Is anybody else doing this?

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

Post by Alexander Kuznetsov » Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:58 am

Marizu wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:00 am
Sweetfiltersweep wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:37 am
Marizu wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:00 am
You probably can't produce any specific melody with Flux, but you can quantise the voltages to chosen notes.
Personally, I think that Flux works well in conjunction with a more traditional sequencer.
I’m sorry to say that this is not right. Flux can produce every note from 0 to 8 volts in milivolts steps. So you can produce every microtonal scale using the fixed output voltage per step. Eloquencer can’t do that.
As you say, Flux has incredible control of voltages. It just does things in a different way.
What I meant was that Eloquencer has patterns that are up to 64 specific, individual, notes.
Is it possible to link patterns in the Eloquencer?

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Re: FLUX - Temporal Modulation Rhythm Sequencer

Post by Marizu » Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:14 pm

Alexander Kuznetsov wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:58 am
Is it possible to link patterns in the Eloquencer?
As I mentioned earlier, I don't have an Eloquencer, but I do know that you can chain patterns.
I was just pointing out that conventional, specific melodies are easy to achieve in Eloquencer or Nerdseq, but not really easy in Flux.
Check out the SonicVoltage YouTube Eloquencer review. It's really comprehensive. There is a section about its song building.

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