2 to 1 mixer modules?

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flashheart
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Re: 2 to 1 mixer modules?

Post by flashheart » Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:20 am

calvinsomething wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:34 pm
Navs wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:34 am
I agree with flashheart; a multiple might work, but it's not the right way to do it.
He already said it's going to a Nord Drum and apparently the trigger velocity can add accents without a separate trigger/voltage.

He needs to mix the signals.
Yes, and you don't mix signals with a multiple.

What Navs has posted is the way to do it, (with a current limiting resistor added to ground).
I'm not buying a maths though, not my idea of fun...

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Re: 2 to 1 mixer modules?

Post by calvinsomething » Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:15 am

Navs wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:27 am
So, if the triggers themselves are of differing voltage strengths, this circuit will give you the peak/loudest voltage, rather than the sum.
An OR, yes. That's usually used to combine gates safely. But I believe what this guy wants is a static trigger to make unaccented notes, with a second trigger, through an attenuator, that can be mixed with the original trigger.

He didn't say anything about this, but I assume he wants all sound to stop if the first trigger stops (even if the 2nd trigger is still being sent). That would mean a mult of the first trigger, sent with the 2nd trigger through an AND would be necessary before combining the two.

So all he needs is two trigger sources, a stackable/splitter/mult, an AND module, and a basic mixer (passive should be fine).

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Re: 2 to 1 mixer modules?

Post by calvinsomething » Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:20 am

flashheart wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:20 am
Yes, and you don't mix signals with a multiple.

What Navs has posted is the way to do it, (with a current limiting resistor added to ground).
I don't know the technical workings, but there are definitely passive mults that go both ways (sockets are labeled I/O).

What's the difference between a passive mult and a passive mixer?

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Foghorn
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Re: 2 to 1 mixer modules?

Post by Foghorn » Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:50 am

calvinsomething wrote:What's the difference between a passive mult and a passive mixer?
A passive multiple simply wires 2 jacks together, with no other electrical components.
A passive mixer usually has 2 resistors, in series, connected between each input jack and ground.
Then the output signal is taken from between the 2 resistors which gives an attenuation.
That way 2 signals can be mixed and the output will only be the same amplitude as each single input signal (assuming the resistors are all of equal value).
Flashheart wrote:Yes, and you don't mix signals with a multiple.
Do you mean don't mix signals with a passive multiple?

This is fine to do with an active (buffered) multiple.--This is wrong--Thanks NAV
Not sure what I was thinking, got stuck on buffered mults vs. passive mults.
Links center group will do this.

I have used the MI Links to do this, but really like the Doepfer A-138u
I am not sure why anyone would buy passive multiples (except for the price)
Buffered multiples are so much more usefull.
I have a bunch of them and I really like the Intellijel 2 hp buffered multiple.
I also have a few Mallekko buffered multiples.
.
Also, I have a few old Doepfer active mixers A-138u
Doepfer A-138u mixer
This 4 hp mixer can mix 3 signals with rear panel adjustable gain.
I keep them set at ~ 1/3 so I can mix 3 audio signals together (3 times 1 volt in gives you 1 volt out) using top section
Plus it can also mix 3 signals together with additive gain (3 times 1 volt in gives you 3 volts out) using bottom section

A-138u is one of the first modules I bought, then Malekko mix 4 and Malekko mute 4.
Then a few Manhattan mixes and Manhattan CP3 warm distortion moogy mixers.
Check them out


Foghorn
EDIT: dammit, I can't get this right, Ok one more time
Edit starting with "This is wrong" and ending with "Links center group will do this."
Last edited by Foghorn on Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:58 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Navs
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Re: 2 to 1 mixer modules?

Post by Navs » Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:17 am

theotteryears, if you're just looking for a small mixer, here are two options:

http://www.doepfer.de/a138n.htm
https://manhattananalog.com/products/mix

Foghorn, which buffered multiple are you thinking of when you say it's OK to mix in one? Creative (ab)use aside, a passive multiple is a signal splitter, not a mixer. Active/buffered multiples, like the Analogue Solutions MX224, can be used as a mixer because the input is an active mixer. Its output is fanned out. It is not bi-directional.

The circuit for a passive mixer is similar to the diode OR I posted above, just replace the diodes with resistors. As I understand it, this is not ideal for two reasons: the two signals are averaged, not summed, and the outputs of the two modules you have connected are not properly isolated, i.e., output is connected to output.
passive-mixer.jpg
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calvinsomething
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Re: 2 to 1 mixer modules?

Post by calvinsomething » Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:56 am

So what about something like the Doepfer A-182-2?

Or many switched multiples that let you use any socket for in or out?

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Re: 2 to 1 mixer modules?

Post by megarat » Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:25 pm

Foghorn wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:50 am
I am not sure why anyone would buy passive multiples (except for the price)
Buffered multiples are so much more usefull.
I have a bunch of them and I really like the Intellijel 2 hp buffered multiple.
I also have a few Mallekko buffered multiples.
I brought up this topic a different thread a few months ago, and I was surprised by the answers. In a nutshell, buffered mults don't always reproduce complex signals 100% faithfully, so there was a common sentiment for using buffered mults for only those CVs that need to be as identical as possible (e.g., 1v/oct signals), and use passive mults for everything else. Also, passive mults are bidirectional, which has its uses.

That said, I love the Intellijel 2hp Buff Mult as well, and have two of them in my rack.

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Navs
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Re: 2 to 1 mixer modules?

Post by Navs » Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:58 pm

calvinsomething wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:56 am
So what about something like the Doepfer A-182-2?

Or many switched multiples that let you use any socket for in or out?
The first module looks like it's a bunch of switches - so, e.g. you'd patch your input/source to the centre jack of the three jacks and flick the switch to connect it to one or the other outputs. You could put the input in jack 1, but it doesn't look like you can mix with it; it just connects two jacks/points, not a third.

The switched multiple is basically the same as having two sets of mults. Yes, you can use any of the grouping's jacks as an in or out, but only one of them should be an input. It's still a multiple, like a headphone splitter where two people can hear the same MP3 player etc.

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Foghorn
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Re: 2 to 1 mixer modules?

Post by Foghorn » Thu Mar 19, 2020 5:53 pm

megarat wrote: --SNIP--SNIP--

I brought up this topic a different thread a few months ago, and I was surprised by the answers. In a nutshell, buffered mults don't always reproduce complex signals 100% faithfully, so there was a common sentiment for using buffered mults for only those CVs that need to be as identical as possible (e.g., 1v/oct signals), and use passive mults for everything else. Also, passive mults are bidirectional, which has its uses.
That said, I love the Intellijel 2hp Buff Mult as well, and have two of them in my rack.



Megarat, I was not totally aware of this.
Cool, I need to look at a buff mult before and after on Mordax (in yet another case)

Foghorn

Or, maybe I need to stop posting as I have had some memory problems lately, don't get old people.

WTF, don' get old people ??? but what, of course not, I like to get young people :hmm:
time to stop digging this hole :doh:
I'm not sure what's going on, but, well ah crap..what now?
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Re: 2 to 1 mixer modules?

Post by gonkulator » Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:35 pm

There is maybe Shades. I like them. And CVP-1 gets you some interesting outputs from two inputs.
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Re: 2 to 1 mixer modules?

Post by kwaidan » Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:41 pm

At $12.50, I use the Boredbrain Music SPLIX to mix two trigger signals.

CDD8EA9A-B47F-45E1-831B-8B3E13263484.jpeg
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megarat
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Re: 2 to 1 mixer modules?

Post by megarat » Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:14 pm

Whoa, nifty. That looks very useful.

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Navs
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Re: 2 to 1 mixer modules?

Post by Navs » Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:11 am

kwaidan wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:41 pm
... Boredbrain Music SPLIX...
This looks like a variation on the passive mixer scheme (or using a potentiometer to 'mix' two signals). Again, just because it sort of works - and is marketed as a mixer - doesn't mean it's going to give you the results you expect.

If you want to know why, read daverj's comments in this thread:

viewtopic.php?p=1291364#1291364

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Re: 2 to 1 mixer modules?

Post by Muff McMuff » Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:20 am

Two audio/CV in . One out.
.
.
Screen Shot 2020-03-20 at 15.18.04.png
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Re: 2 to 1 mixer modules?

Post by cg_funk » Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:36 am

Navs wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:27 am
calvinsomething wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:34 pm
Navs wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:34 am
I agree with flashheart; a multiple might work, but it's not the right way to do it.
He already said it's going to a Nord Drum and apparently the trigger velocity can add accents without a separate trigger/voltage.

He needs to mix the signals.
Ah, I see. I was thinking of this method:

OR-combiner_max-logic.jpg

So, if the triggers themselves are of differing voltage strengths, this circuit will give you the peak/loudest voltage, rather than the sum.

Intellijel makes one of those in 2HP:

https://intellijel.com/shop/eurorack/or/

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Re: 2 to 1 mixer modules?

Post by calvinsomething » Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:28 am

Navs wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:58 pm
The first module looks like it's a bunch of switches - so, e.g. you'd patch your input/source to the centre jack of the three jacks and flick the switch to connect it to one or the other outputs. You could put the input in jack 1, but it doesn't look like you can mix with it; it just connects two jacks/points, not a third.

The switched multiple is basically the same as having two sets of mults. Yes, you can use any of the grouping's jacks as an in or out, but only one of them should be an input. It's still a multiple, like a headphone splitter where two people can hear the same MP3 player etc.
Sorry, the switch was a bad example. I do know people use switched multiples to mix gates, namely Steevio.

But thank you for the explanation.

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Re: 2 to 1 mixer modules?

Post by bedhed3000 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:17 am

Muff McMuff wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:20 am
Two audio/CV in . One out.
.
.
Screen Shot 2020-03-20 at 15.18.04.png
Exactly. But he needs 3 channels. The answer is SSF Muton.

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Navs
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Re: 2 to 1 mixer modules?

Post by Navs » Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:19 am

calvinsomething wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:28 am
Navs wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:58 pm
The first module looks like it's a bunch of switches - so, e.g. you'd patch your input/source to the centre jack of the three jacks and flick the switch to connect it to one or the other outputs. You could put the input in jack 1, but it doesn't look like you can mix with it; it just connects two jacks/points, not a third.

The switched multiple is basically the same as having two sets of mults. Yes, you can use any of the grouping's jacks as an in or out, but only one of them should be an input. It's still a multiple, like a headphone splitter where two people can hear the same MP3 player etc.
Sorry, the switch was a bad example. I do know people use switched multiples to mix gates, namely Steevio.

But thank you for the explanation.
No problems, I totally understand why one would think it's possible: for one, it sort of 'works' :hihi:

But for the sake of our modules, it's still not a good idea to short their outputs together. :foul:

I rewatched Steevio's explainer video (and read the XLR8R article). Unless I'm misunderstanding him (which is possible, given the complex patch!) Steevio uses switched mults to distribute clocks to various destinations. He's fanning out one signal, rather than mixing many.

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Re: 2 to 1 mixer modules?

Post by calvinsomething » Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:44 am

Mylarmelodies did a video a couple years ago about it, and was combining trigger patterns based on advice from Steevio. He says in the video that it's not technically the best thing to do, but Steevio told him he hasn't ruined anything yet by doing it. Mylar did a much more recent video on using switched mults for this purpose, too.

But in this case, where the thread creator wants to send different velocity triggers, I guess a mult would actually be better than a mixer, if the mixer is not actually going to combine the voltages?

It sounds like he wants to run the 2nd trigger through an attenuator before combining them.

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Re: 2 to 1 mixer modules?

Post by rayultine » Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:14 am

Livestock MIR is a quad VCA with two summed inputs on each channel. It's a very cool and underrated module.

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