delays with 1V/octave time control

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felix le chat
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delays with 1V/octave time control

Post by felix le chat » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:39 am

Hello

I am looking for a delay module with 1V/oct delay time CV input for physical modelling synthesis. Even xV/oct is ok because you can use an attenuator/amplifier

Most delay modules have a linear time CV input, so yes I can use a software curve processor that converts frequency to linear time, but I prefer a solution that can work without a computer when required (and also I never heard of a CV curve processor module)

The only ones I found are:
* Doepfer A-188-1 (256-, 512- or 1024-BBD version)
* CG Delay 1022
* Mungo d0

Are there any others?

Best regards

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Re: delays with 1V/octave time control

Post by grape tony » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:43 am

Make Noise mimephon U input does this i believe

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Re: delays with 1V/octave time control

Post by matcsat » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:11 am

Hi,
felix le chat wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:39 am
Most delay modules have a linear time CV input, so yes I can use a software curve processor that converts frequency to linear time, but I prefer a solution that can work without a computer when required (and also I never heard of a CV curve processor module)
Maybe you can investigate into the Klavis CalTrans module.

Marco.

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Re: delays with 1V/octave time control

Post by jorg » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:16 am

felix le chat wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:39 am
Hello

I am looking for a delay module with 1V/oct delay time CV input for physical modelling synthesis.
Rumor has it that AJH will be releasing an amazing one soon. Some unprecedented features.

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Re: delays with 1V/octave time control

Post by synonymist » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:21 am

Hello. Although the EQD Afterneath module is described as being a reverb processor, in fact its reverberation is achieved by many tiny discrete delays: "Reverb algorithm built from an adjustable cluster of short delays".

Of interest to you is the Afterneath's quantization modes (unquantized or quantized, with or without slewing), which can be selected either manually and/or by CV with the Mode parameter. In tandem with application of 1v/oct CV to the Drag parameter CV input, Mode might give you what you seek.

The following video embed is queued to the section about the Afterneath module's modes:


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Re: delays with 1V/octave time control

Post by starthief » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:23 am

felix le chat wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:39 am
also I never heard of a CV curve processor module
Disting has exp-to-lin and lin-to-exp algorithms. I wouldn't count on being able to use it to reliably convert a V/OCT signal to equivalent delay times for any given delay module though.

Also some clockable delays can go fast enough to do a bit of Karplus-Strong. Run your V/OCT signal into a VCO and use that to clock the delay.
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Re: delays with 1V/octave time control

Post by lisa » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:24 am

Do not forget Doepfer A-188! BBD delay that roughly tracks 1v/o and has quite many cool features and a low price.
New modular track! My first in six months. :party: Messy and unglued.


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Re: delays with 1V/octave time control

Post by desolationjones » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:56 pm

4ms DLD has a 1V/8ve mode.

Mungo d0 tracks xV/8ve where x must be set with a "zoom" knob (mungo's ingenious attenuverter scheme). The dialed-in value of x is lost on power cycle unless you use a Select Bus-leading module for saving/loading (e.g. Macro Machines Storage Strip).

Both modules are outstanding for physical modelling. The 4ms beats the Mungo for general utility and workflow, but the d0 has world-class audio quality and is the more "modular" of the two.

EDIT: If you get the DLD, don't forget to set the rear jumper for higher sample rate.

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Re: delays with 1V/octave time control

Post by vhansen » Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:35 pm

+1 mimeophon- v/oct is on point and very easy to shape karplus strong sounds with the different parameters in the feedback loop

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Re: delays with 1V/octave time control

Post by Wjbratcher » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:44 pm

starthief wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:23 am
felix le chat wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:39 am
also I never heard of a CV curve processor module
Disting has exp-to-lin and lin-to-exp algorithms. I wouldn't count on being able to use it to reliably convert a V/OCT signal to equivalent delay times for any given delay module though.

Also some clockable delays can go fast enough to do a bit of Karplus-Strong. Run your V/OCT signal into a VCO and use that to clock the delay.
Right, the disting again is an example of a delay that can be clocked by a vco to get some tracking over a karplus-like range.

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Re: delays with 1V/octave time control

Post by felix le chat » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:44 pm

Thanks for your help everybody!
For my applications, and given the information I have, it is between the A-188-1 (or perhaps the CG 1022), the Mimeophon and the d0

grape tony wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:43 am
Make Noise mimephon U input does this i believe
vhansen wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:35 pm
+1 mimeophon- v/oct is on point and very easy to shape karplus strong sounds with the different parameters in the feedback loop
The Mimeophon works for my application and has great additional features
Shortest delay time is 1.3 ms right? (this is workable for me)

desolationjones wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:56 pm
4ms DLD has a 1V/8ve mode.

Mungo d0 tracks xV/8ve where x must be set with a "zoom" knob (mungo's ingenious attenuverter scheme). The dialed-in value of x is lost on power cycle unless you use a Select Bus-leading module for saving/loading (e.g. Macro Machines Storage Strip).

Both modules are outstanding for physical modelling. The 4ms beats the Mungo for general utility and workflow, but the d0 has world-class audio quality and is the more "modular" of the two.

EDIT: If you get the DLD, don't forget to set the rear jumper for higher sample rate.
The Mungo d0 is very expensive, not easy to find in Europe, and requires +5V PSU, but yes it should be "the" correct solution:

- very clean sound (but I am surprised it is often said to be even cleaner than other digital delays, I expected any digital delay to be reasonably clean today)

- very short processing latency, and the latency is compensated (which is easy for a delay and I guess most digital delays have similar compensation, right?); latency compensation should be important for physical modelling synthesis, when using very short delays with an external feedback loop

Of course, the price reminds me that I have the same processing available inside my computer (except the latency, which is not bad in my case but we are still talking about a standard audio computer)


The DLD is a great alternative to the Mimeophon, and can indeed be used for physical modelling. That said, the other possibilities of the Mimeophon fit my approach better than the ones of the DLD

lisa wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:24 am
Do not forget Doepfer A-188! BBD delay that roughly tracks 1v/o and has quite many cool features and a low price.
Yes! Actually the A-188-1 was the first module I mentioned in my post :mrgreen: Or did you mean A-188-2?
It is likely that I finally choose the A-1881-1, because of price, features, and no latency from a microcontroller (most digital delays use one and the latency might not be compensated even if they should do it on delays because it is possible)

jorg wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:16 am
Rumor has it that AJH will be releasing an amazing one soon. Some unprecedented features.
Interesting! Where can I find some information about it?

synonymist wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:21 am
Hello. Although the EQD Afterneath module is described as being a reverb processor, in fact its reverberation is achieved by many tiny discrete delays: "Reverb algorithm built from an adjustable cluster of short delays".

Of interest to you is the Afterneath's quantization modes (unquantized or quantized, with or without slewing), which can be selected either manually and/or by CV with the Mode parameter. In tandem with application of 1v/oct CV to the Drag parameter CV input, Mode might give you what you seek.
The Afterneath cannot be used as a single, standard delay line as far as I understand. This is a problem for my application.
But thanks for pointing this module, it remains very interesting and unique

matcsat wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:11 am
Hi,
felix le chat wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:39 am
Most delay modules have a linear time CV input, so yes I can use a software curve processor that converts frequency to linear time, but I prefer a solution that can work without a computer when required (and also I never heard of a CV curve processor module)
Maybe you can investigate into the Klavis CalTrans module.

Marco.
Great module! I have Silent Way and an ES-3, which covers similar functionalities. Of course the CalTrans is better in live because you don't need a computer. How is the latency? (I guess, no problem in practice)

starthief wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:23 am
felix le chat wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:39 am
also I never heard of a CV curve processor module
Disting has exp-to-lin and lin-to-exp algorithms. I wouldn't count on being able to use it to reliably convert a V/OCT signal to equivalent delay times for any given delay module though.

Also some clockable delays can go fast enough to do a bit of Karplus-Strong. Run your V/OCT signal into a VCO and use that to clock the delay.
Wjbratcher wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:44 pm
Right, the disting again is an example of a delay that can be clocked by a vco to get some tracking over a karplus-like range.
I would ask the same question: is the Disting ok in terms of latency / sound "tightness" for this particular application?

Thanks again!

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Re: delays with 1V/octave time control

Post by Mungo » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:07 pm

felix le chat wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:44 pm
The Mungo d0 is very expensive, not easy to find in Europe, and requires +5V PSU, but yes it should be "the" correct solution:

- very short processing latency, and the latency is compensated (which is easy for a delay and I guess most digital delays have similar compensation, right?); latency compensation should be important for physical modelling synthesis, when using very short delays with an external feedback loop

Of course, the price reminds me that I have the same processing available inside my computer (except the latency, which is not bad in my case but we are still talking about a standard audio computer)
The newer revision does not require 5V power any more (old revision was optionally 12V, new revision is optionally 5V). In stock and available for direct sales.

I'm not aware of any other delays that have external feedback compensation, this is important to keep tracking accurate over many octaves.

A computer can do a lot of the same things internally (as can other more complex modules) but latency for the external feedback loop limits those other options.

BBD are a good compromise, they won't be adjustable over many octaves in a single span (need to change tap length at some point), but they have low latency and good tracking. Following a clock (frequency) reference rather than v/oct is much more accurate for tracking, also the filters are less critical than the delay for tuning but still contribute some additional errors.

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Re: delays with 1V/octave time control

Post by starthief » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:38 pm

felix le chat wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:44 pm
I would ask the same question: is the Disting ok in terms of latency / sound "tightness" for this particular application?
It's been a while since I owned one, but in the little bit I recall of experimenting with it, it was pretty decent. I didn't really love the sound I was getting from it enough to pursue it in more detail once my curiosity was satisfied. I prefer the softer and more "organic" resonator-like stuff I get from the Mimeophon, which is not very typical of K-S "plucked string" patches at all :)
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Re: delays with 1V/octave time control

Post by Estes » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:37 am

I have a Mimeophon and a CG Delay. Every delay has it pros and cons and I heard the Mungo delay and it's definetly the winner among all three.

The Mimeophon, I don't know it didn't convince me in the end. But you will find a lot of demos to get an idea. In the meanwhile I wanted to show you some patches I made recently with the cg delay which is really dedicated only purpose and I use it all the time:






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Re: delays with 1V/octave time control

Post by felix le chat » Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:17 am

Mungo wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:07 pm
Following a clock (frequency) reference rather than v/oct is much more accurate for tracking,
To be sure I understood correctly, does it work like this on the d0?
- set "delay offset" to 0 ms
- set "delay modulation" to 0
- connect a clock (square VCO) to "clock input"
---> the final delay time is 1 divided by the VCO frequency minus the latency of the d0
Is it correct?

When using the clock input for tracking, what is the behavior of "delay offset" and "delay modulation"?

Also, nothing related to physical modelling, but when "slew limiter" = 0 (no slew), is there a way to have the delay time switch between integer multiples or divisions of a "master" time?
For example if the delay is set to 100 ms, being able to jump to k*100 ms or (n/m)*100 ms
(25, 33, 50, 67, 75, 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, etc ms)

also the filters are less critical than the delay for tuning but still contribute some additional errors.
Which filters do you mean? The filters of the A/D D/A converters, the slew limiter, or the filters you may use in feedback loops?

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Re: delays with 1V/octave time control

Post by felix le chat » Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:21 am

starthief wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:38 pm
felix le chat wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:44 pm
I would ask the same question: is the Disting ok in terms of latency / sound "tightness" for this particular application?
It's been a while since I owned one, but in the little bit I recall of experimenting with it, it was pretty decent. I didn't really love the sound I was getting from it enough to pursue it in more detail once my curiosity was satisfied. I prefer the softer and more "organic" resonator-like stuff I get from the Mimeophon, which is not very typical of K-S "plucked string" patches at all :)
But it is also possible to make typical K-S "plucked strings" with the Mimeophon right? Or did I miss something?

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Re: delays with 1V/octave time control

Post by felix le chat » Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:38 am

Estes wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:37 am
I have a Mimeophon and a CG Delay. Every delay has it pros and cons and I heard the Mungo delay and it's definetly the winner among all three.

The Mimeophon, I don't know it didn't convince me in the end. But you will find a lot of demos to get an idea. In the meanwhile I wanted to show you some patches I made recently with the cg delay which is really dedicated only purpose and I use it all the time:





Thanks a lot, the CG 1022 and your patches sound great!

What is the shortest workable delay time? In the manual they say 1.3 ms with the "delay time" knob, but "The range can be extended by adding a CV to one of the respective inputs"

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Re: delays with 1V/octave time control

Post by Estes » Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:07 am

felix le chat wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:38 am
Estes wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:37 am
I have a Mimeophon and a CG Delay. Every delay has it pros and cons and I heard the Mungo delay and it's definetly the winner among all three.

The Mimeophon, I don't know it didn't convince me in the end. But you will find a lot of demos to get an idea. In the meanwhile I wanted to show you some patches I made recently with the cg delay which is really dedicated only purpose and I use it all the time:





Thanks a lot, the CG 1022 and your patches sound great!

What is the shortest workable delay time? In the manual they say 1.3 ms with the "delay time" knob, but "The range can be extended by adding a CV to one of the respective inputs"
dude need to try it out I Don't know!

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Re: delays with 1V/octave time control

Post by jorg » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:13 am

Felix, your best bet is to contact AJH Synth for details.

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Re: delays with 1V/octave time control

Post by starthief » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:22 am

felix le chat wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:21 am
But it is also possible to make typical K-S "plucked strings" with the Mimeophon right? Or did I miss something?
It's definitely possible, and now that I play with it a bit more, there's a pretty good range of timbral variation with it thanks to Color, Flip etc.
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Re: delays with 1V/octave time control

Post by Mungo » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:35 pm

felix le chat wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:17 am
Mungo wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:07 pm
Following a clock (frequency) reference rather than v/oct is much more accurate for tracking,
To be sure I understood correctly, does it work like this on the d0?
- set "delay offset" to 0 ms
- set "delay modulation" to 0
- connect a clock (square VCO) to "clock input"
---> the final delay time is 1 divided by the VCO frequency minus the latency of the d0
Is it correct?

When using the clock input for tracking, what is the behavior of "delay offset" and "delay modulation"?
All the controls add to each other, you can follow/track any frequency and adjust the delay offset to bring the delay to the desired length. The clock input provides the extremely accurate tracking as its input changes frequency. There is no quantisation or overriding of the other controls.
felix le chat wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:17 am
Mungo wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:07 pm
also the filters are less critical than the delay for tuning but still contribute some additional errors.
Which filters do you mean? The filters of the A/D D/A converters, the slew limiter, or the filters you may use in feedback loops?
Filters (or other modules) in the feedback loop, they will shift the tuning and tracking too.

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Re: delays with 1V/octave time control

Post by felix le chat » Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:46 am

jorg wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:13 am
Felix, your best bet is to contact AJH Synth for details.
Thanks, will do!

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Re: delays with 1V/octave time control

Post by felix le chat » Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:50 am

starthief wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:22 am
felix le chat wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:21 am
But it is also possible to make typical K-S "plucked strings" with the Mimeophon right? Or did I miss something?
It's definitely possible, and now that I play with it a bit more, there's a pretty good range of timbral variation with it thanks to Color, Flip etc.
Yes besides external feedback patching (which is always possible) the Mimeophon looks like having great built-in sound possibilities

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Re: delays with 1V/octave time control

Post by felix le chat » Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:00 am

Mungo wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:35 pm
felix le chat wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:17 am
(...)
When using the clock input for tracking, what is the behavior of "delay offset" and "delay modulation"?
All the controls add to each other, you can follow/track any frequency and adjust the delay offset to bring the delay to the desired length. The clock input provides the extremely accurate tracking as its input changes frequency. There is no quantisation or overriding of the other controls.
Ok thanks
Last question
I read that when the "delay modulation" cv inputs are not used, the corresponding attenuator/inverter has to be set to 0, otherwise there is a bit of noise that modulates the delay time. Setting the knob to 0 is not a problem for me, but as an alternative is it possible to plug a constant 0V CV source from an active module in the "delay modulation" inputs?

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Re: delays with 1V/octave time control

Post by Mungo » Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:26 pm

felix le chat wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:00 am
Mungo wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:35 pm
felix le chat wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:17 am
(...)
When using the clock input for tracking, what is the behavior of "delay offset" and "delay modulation"?
All the controls add to each other, you can follow/track any frequency and adjust the delay offset to bring the delay to the desired length. The clock input provides the extremely accurate tracking as its input changes frequency. There is no quantisation or overriding of the other controls.
Ok thanks
Last question
I read that when the "delay modulation" cv inputs are not used, the corresponding attenuator/inverter has to be set to 0, otherwise there is a bit of noise that modulates the delay time. Setting the knob to 0 is not a problem for me, but as an alternative is it possible to plug a constant 0V CV source from an active module in the "delay modulation" inputs?
Noise from CV inputs might be audible depending on the position of the slew control and the current delay length. CV signals/inputs on all modules have noise in them, but only some modules like the d0 have both enough gain and low enough internal noise that you can hear it. An external DC or 0V source will be more noisy than the internal reference when nothing is plugged in.

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