0-10V output vs. -5/+5 output

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grombleglop
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0-10V output vs. -5/+5 output

Post by grombleglop » Fri May 22, 2020 6:59 pm

I have been looking into the polyend preset module to incorporate into my setup. It seems whenever I am reading anything about this module, there is always someone asking if it just does 0 to +10V outputs or -5 to +5V as well (upon learning it only does 0-10V, there is always the response of "oh well, guess I won't be getting that...") I'm trying to figure out what this means in the context of my setup, and does it really matter if it doesn't do -5 to +5.

Quick description of preset for those not familiar: each "preset" (32 banks of 32) consists of 9 outputs. Those outputs can be a gate, continuous voltage level, recorded automation shape, or quantized voltage.

Main reason I was interested in this is as a chord generator for xaoc odessa to use the pads on preset to play chords. Odessa accepts voltages from -5V to +10 V. So in this instance, I'm assuming preset would just address the 0 to +10 and not be able to make the pitch go below where the oscillator is tuned.

A few more examples to try to wrap my head around: DPO accepts -5 to +5 in v/oct; would that mean preset will not be able to make the pitch lower than it is tuned, and if preset sent anything higher than +5v, the DPO would just output its max freq of +5V? If so, I use rene to sequence it right now and that only has a 4V output, so is there a reason I should care the output voltage of preset and input acceptance of DPO are not the same?

Other sources from other modules accept +/-4V, +/-8V, 0-8V. If I am correct in my understanding of what happens with -5/+5v, I'm guessing this is the same case with these inputs and their respective ranges where I just would never be able to get into the negative ranges (without offsets) and going above an input range would result in that module just outputting whatever its maximum is.

Sorry I kinda rambled here, but I want to try to get a better grip on this. Basically, I'm looking for a confirmation of what I think is going on with voltage outputs/inputs and then maybe some commentary on does having 0-10V output on the preset really matter and should it be a deal breaker for me as it seems to be for some people?

Parnelli
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Re: 0-10V output vs. -5/+5 output

Post by Parnelli » Sat May 23, 2020 8:12 am

There are a number of utilities that correct these voltage disparities. I have Mother 32s that are -5 +5v, and I picked up a couple of Pico Mscales that boost or cut CV by 5 volts to help them play well with others.

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Tomorrow Sounds Good
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Re: 0-10V output vs. -5/+5 output

Post by Tomorrow Sounds Good » Sat May 23, 2020 8:28 am

Now would be a great time for a massive Zoom meeting between all manufacturers and set a standard .

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Re: 0-10V output vs. -5/+5 output

Post by Parnelli » Sat May 23, 2020 9:07 am

It's a conspiracy perpetuated by the utilities manufacturers I tell ya!

No but really there's always going to be some disparity, I want my Euro to work with my Moog or Buchla, or workstation or whatever. I think that a part of the process is to reign in such disparities in modular, though I have to agree that one standard voltage scale within the Euro domain would be nice.

Oh well, maybe next format?

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Re: 0-10V output vs. -5/+5 output

Post by KSS » Sat May 23, 2020 9:16 am

Tomorrow Sounds Good wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:28 am
Now would be a great time for a massive Zoom meeting between all manufacturers and set a standard .
Why? There are valid and useful reasons for both ranges. As somebody mentioned, utility modules exist to translate between the two when or if necessary.

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Graham Hinton
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Re: 0-10V output vs. -5/+5 output

Post by Graham Hinton » Sat May 23, 2020 1:19 pm

grombleglop wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:59 pm
Basically, I'm looking for a confirmation of what I think is going on with voltage outputs/inputs and then maybe some commentary on does having 0-10V output on the preset really matter and should it be a deal breaker for me as it seems to be for some people?
+10V or -10V cannot be guaranteed to work on most Eurorack modules. You may find some that do, but another instance of the same module might not due to production tolerances. If you do find a module that can output +10V then it won't pass through the more common modules. This is a consequence of +/-12V power and why Doepfer specified 0-8V for their envelopes.

A 10V range on a 1V/oct VCO or VCF will give the full audio range of ten octaves, but as most inputs go into an adder which combines the panel controls and preset offsets as well the total signed arithmetic sum still has to be within the range the circuitry can handle and which makes sense for the module's function. So if you really want to sweep the full ten octaves it is better to start below zero volts.

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Re: 0-10V output vs. -5/+5 output

Post by KSS » Sat May 23, 2020 1:42 pm

Parnelli wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 9:07 am
Oh well, maybe next format?
Andrew Kilpatrick designed his new modular format to use the same bipolar range throughout.

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Re: 0-10V output vs. -5/+5 output

Post by grombleglop » Sun May 24, 2020 8:23 am

Parnelli wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:12 am
There are a number of utilities that correct these voltage disparities. I have Mother 32s that are -5 +5v, and I picked up a couple of Pico Mscales that boost or cut CV by 5 volts to help them play well with others.
So you would just use an offset/attenuation utility to scale the 0 to 10 output to whatever the input range is, be it +/-5, 0-4, +/-8?

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Re: 0-10V output vs. -5/+5 output

Post by KSS » Sun May 24, 2020 8:45 am

Yes.

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Re: 0-10V output vs. -5/+5 output

Post by Parnelli » Sun May 24, 2020 9:27 am

I have a Miso that I was using for this, worked fine, but I wanted to free it up for other things so I picked up the Mscales. A Triatt, Quadratt, or similar utility will do the job as well.

grombleglop
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Re: 0-10V output vs. -5/+5 output

Post by grombleglop » Sun May 24, 2020 10:15 am

Ok got it.

Last question... I’m thinking of 0 to +10 vs +/-5 as voltage ranges the module with respond to and there is going to be overlap in the positive range. OR is this some kind of overall standard where if you connect 0-10 to a +/-5 it’s just not going to respond at all (or possibly fry something)?

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Re: 0-10V output vs. -5/+5 output

Post by adaris » Sun May 24, 2020 12:05 pm

grombleglop wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 10:15 am
Ok got it.

Last question... I’m thinking of 0 to +10 vs +/-5 as voltage ranges the module with respond to and there is going to be overlap in the positive range. OR is this some kind of overall standard where if you connect 0-10 to a +/-5 it’s just not going to respond at all (or possibly fry something)?
Feeding 10V to an input expecting 5V or less shouldn't fry anything, generally you'll just get the same result with anything over 5V that you would with 5V. I say "shouldn't", that's assuming the module is properly designed and is functioning properly. Same with feeding negative voltage to an input expecting only positive voltage, i.e. -5V will typically produce the same result as 0V in this case.

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Re: 0-10V output vs. -5/+5 output

Post by scragz » Tue May 26, 2020 8:26 pm

adaris wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 12:05 pm
grombleglop wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 10:15 am
Ok got it.

Last question... I’m thinking of 0 to +10 vs +/-5 as voltage ranges the module with respond to and there is going to be overlap in the positive range. OR is this some kind of overall standard where if you connect 0-10 to a +/-5 it’s just not going to respond at all (or possibly fry something)?
Feeding 10V to an input expecting 5V or less shouldn't fry anything, generally you'll just get the same result with anything over 5V that you would with 5V. I say "shouldn't", that's assuming the module is properly designed and is functioning properly. Same with feeding negative voltage to an input expecting only positive voltage, i.e. -5V will typically produce the same result as 0V in this case.
"Shouldn't" but for example Noise Engineering oscillators expect 0-5v and have a tendency to glitch out in unexpected ways if you give them anything negative on the modulation inputs.

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Re: 0-10V output vs. -5/+5 output

Post by KSS » Wed May 27, 2020 3:37 am

Glitch out is an acceptable response to voltages beyond the expected 'normal' range, but still within the power rails.

Well designed modules must accept any reasonable expected voltage at their jacks without pemanent damage. Reasonable voltage is anything between the power rails, from DC to mHz. Temporary off or odd behavior is allowable.

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100000bps
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Re: 0-10V output vs. -5/+5 output

Post by 100000bps » Wed May 27, 2020 3:53 am

I'm using Polyend Preset with 3x Frap Tools 321. Allows for all outputs to be configured to +-10v or +-5v, granted it takes more room, but in my case (hahaha) its well worth it. I use this setup to fully control MI elements (ATOM version) that are +-8v on modulation... Would i prefer that Polyend would just make a module that can go full range from the get-go ? Yes. But you have tools in modular that can do it no issue. Its just Space/Money you need to decide that it's worth it. Got 2 Presets btw, great module :D.

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Re: 0-10V output vs. -5/+5 output

Post by seta666 » Wed May 27, 2020 4:03 am

adaris wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 12:05 pm
Feeding 10V to an input expecting 5V or less shouldn't fry anything, generally you'll just get the same result with anything over 5V that you would with 5V. I say "shouldn't", that's assuming the module is properly designed and is functioning properly. Same with feeding negative voltage to an input expecting only positive voltage, i.e. -5V will typically produce the same result as 0V in this case.
I fried a Behringer crave in less than a week, I do not know if it was the VCA, the filter or both. Never had a problem with any of my other modules including several MI, DFAM, 0-Coast, Maths...some inputs accept bipolar -5/+5, -10/+10; others unipolar 0-5v, 0-8v, 0-10v...to many to remember. I just patch as I wish...

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Re: 0-10V output vs. -5/+5 output

Post by KSS » Wed May 27, 2020 6:11 am

@seta666
Did Behringer support you with their warranty service?

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Re: 0-10V output vs. -5/+5 output

Post by adaris » Wed May 27, 2020 6:22 am

seta666 wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 4:03 am
adaris wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 12:05 pm
Feeding 10V to an input expecting 5V or less shouldn't fry anything, generally you'll just get the same result with anything over 5V that you would with 5V. I say "shouldn't", that's assuming the module is properly designed and is functioning properly. Same with feeding negative voltage to an input expecting only positive voltage, i.e. -5V will typically produce the same result as 0V in this case.
I fried a Behringer crave in less than a week, I do not know if it was the VCA, the filter or both. Never had a problem with any of my other modules including several MI, DFAM, 0-Coast, Maths...some inputs accept bipolar -5/+5, -10/+10; others unipolar 0-5v, 0-8v, 0-10v...to many to remember. I just patch as I wish...
Yeah, my experience has been similar. I do remember one of my Behringer Neutrons acting funny for a day or two after I sent significantly more than 5V into one of the inputs that expects between -5 and 5 once. Don't remember which input off of the top of my head. Thankfully I didn't fry it, but I think the lesson may be that while semi-modulars like the Neutron and Crave offer great value, Behringer may have cut a few corners in order to provide that value.

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