the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Cwejman, Livewire, TipTop Audio, Doepfer etc... Get your euro on!

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by wuff_miggler » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:36 am

whatever happened to not buying something that you didnt like??? seriously this thread premise is insane.

Do you write commandments for cars, clothing designers, home appliances, everything you buy?
if you dont like a module - dont buy it....you still want the blips and bloops? suck it up sunshine and put up with it :/

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by Kattefjaes » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:38 am

tuj wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:04 am
metasonix wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:29 pm
lol
Oh I forgot the Metasonix-specific commandment:

Thou shall not name thy module 'cunt' or variations thereof.

Image

Image

But hey you said yourself you don't care anymore so I don't know why you're even reading this. I guess you should thank Shawn for covering up your disgusting graphic with his thumb in that picture.
I mean, I am sure there are some Beavis and/or Butthead types who found it hilarious, it takes all sorts.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by Polyterative » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:51 am

tuj wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:56 am
  • THOU SHALL INDICATE INPUT AND OUTPUT JACKS CONSISTENTLY VIA THE PANEL MARKINGS.
My dream would be a consistent IN/OUT markings between manufacturers but I understand and love different design systems (frap I love you <3 ). I just sometimes get confused by the opposite marks on my DPO inputs vs my intellijel quad VCA outs for examle. Still minor stuff.
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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by attacca » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:53 am

How is it muffs threads tend to devolve into more fake drama than "reality" tv shows? Maybe tuj should look up the dictionary definition of fuck/fucking as that is widely considered just as offensive in many cultures and you've used it at least twice in this thread. The word cunt carries much less weight in many cultures as well (UK, Australia, New Zealand), it is used both for men and women and even as a term of endearment among friends. Your e-negro comparison is apples/oranges, but I'm sure you knew that. Also OP/tuj started the derailment with his response to a single "lol". If you are offended by the graphics or names of products, whatever the subject matter, you are truly thin skinned and you should probably stop using the internet. Try getting deployed to a warzone, or watch a 12 year old get beheaded with a dull knife if you want offended at what you see. Gain some perspective.

That being said this whole thread was intended to be clickbait, inflammatory.... Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS. Come on, really?

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by wuff_miggler » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:10 am

^ lol - i didnt want to say what attaca said - but yep...pretty much what they said.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by Migrigsynth » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:29 am

This community does a pretty good job weeding out the deadbeat manufacturers. No need for any commandments. And, if you do a little research before buying you’ll be able to make a educated choice.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by daphnid » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:53 am

Everything mentioned in that list improves my user experience with a module. When I got my filter 8, installed it, and read the manual I thought to myself, fuck I love whoever designed this thing. When I recently updated my PNW I thought, man I wish every update was this straightforward (after spending $30 and over an hour updating my bug ridden Kermit). I've had to sub-optimally arrange modules in my Doepfer case due to non-slotted mounting holes, and I'd be pissed if I blew my $400 module up because I plugged it in backwards.

Good design is always appreciated by the user and everything in that list is good design (from a user perspective), it's presented cheekily but I don't think it's inflammatory at all. Whether or not it's practical or affordable for designers I can't comment on, but I've seen every one of those design features implemented in many, many modules and I'm always greatly thankful when user experience is a core consideration of a design philosophy, and it portrays the designer as smart and thoughtful.

Many (a majority?) of companies out there designing modules are one man operations, more often by people with engineering backgrounds and not industrial design and UI/UX backgrounds. The makers that clearly put a lot of thought into all facets the user experience (like Joranalogue and ALM) really stand out to me, and their thoughtfulness does not go unappreciated. But I'll still buy a module with a lot of annoying design quirks if I think it does something uniquely useful or sounds incredible. You get conditioned to put up with these things pretty quickly in eurorack.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by tuj » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:36 am

daphnid wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:53 am
it's presented cheekily but I don't think it's inflammatory at all. ... I've seen every one of those design features implemented in many, many modules and I'm always greatly thankful when user experience is a core consideration of a design philosophy, and it portrays the designer as smart and thoughtful.
:yay:

Finally someone seems to get it.

As for the rest of you who say to 'slot off' well I actually own tons of modules that don't have the features I've listed. I own a 7" deep PCB module. I own modules without knobs with indicators and plenty without panel markings. I own modules with only holes. I've had to Dremel out holes on Analog Solutions modules into slots because, obviously, they don't fit the standard rails. I've had to send modules back to the manufacturer for a simple EPROM flash or whatever to update the firmware. I own modules from at least 30 different manufacturers and I've been in the game since before Rene V1 was considered 'hot shit' (I had #13). I am coming from 13+ years of eurorack and 20+ years of modular experience and I simply made a list of what would make Euro better if every manufacturer would consider at the very least.

Let's take for example the Disting MK4:

- easy to upgrade firmware, many updates! (thanks Os)

- 4 slots for mounting.

- boxed power header and polarity protection.

- an evolving, but generally clear manual updated with the firmware.

- panel conforms or is slightly narrower than the Eurorack spec so it sits nicely in the rack.

- PCB is perpendicular but short.

Now let's take an old simple modules like the A-145 (LFO):

- holes for mounting

- unboxed pin header

- no power polarity protection

- PCB is perpendicular and of medium depth, it might not fit in say a TTA Mantis I don't know.

I give Dieter 1) mad props for creating the A-100 series and 2) credit for panel markings for the knobs. I get that initially the designs were so simple that power protection seemed extraneous as did boxed headers. But now that modules are having 300+ SMD part counts and multiple stacked PCB's and/or processors, the stakes have been changed. Would you want to blow up one of those SSP Percussa's because you plugged it in backwards?

I would wager that everything I listed in the initial post is actually good for business. Markings enhance usability and are essentially no cost since you are already buying knobs and printing panel designs. Power protection and headers keep users from sending back things or being extremely disappointed newbies. Manuals are pretty important, especially because everyone's CV ranges are different and there's a lot of hidden functionality these days.

Most makers are engineer-types (like myself) who may not always see things from a UX perspective. I know I've been blinded by that on software I've designed where I thought the workflow or UI was obvious but when I gave it to a user, it wasn't. Same with being user-friendly on mounting. If you don't KNOW that slots are better, if you don't know the agony of tapped rails versus sliding nuts versus panels that don't line up, then you may not even THINK to put in slots. The milling might cost fractionally more but modular people tend to pretty particular and want their modules to all sit nicely with each other. I have to overlap some modules in my setup because makers weren't paying close enough attention to hole placement and the standards and didn't think to use slots.

Am I not going to buy a module that's rad because it doesn't have slots? No. I set these commandments out to benefit all of Eurorack-kind. And to start discussion.

What do YOU think is critical in a module's design?

PS. To the person who said I made a false equivalency between 'cunt and 'negro', please read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cunt#Generally
The word cunt is generally regarded in English-speaking countries as unsuitable for normal public discourse. It has been described as "the most heavily tabooed word of all English words",[11][12] although John Ayto, editor of the Oxford Dictionary of Slang, says "nigger" is more taboo.
Neither word is acceptable. I don't care if you call your friends that (either word), it's not acceptable in general social discourse, and it's especially not acceptable as a DAMN PRODUCT NAME WITH A GRAPHIC. I don't know how else to put that.

I don't want to argue over words, but we have seen recently that WORDS MATTER. You can shrug off 'cunt' but then go screaming PC when someone say's the N-word? No, you can't have it both ways.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by Jumbuktu » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:54 am

tuj wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:16 am
Deep PCB mounted perpendicular to the panel won't fit in most peoples' cases nowadays. There was a time when everyone had a 6-8" deep case but that's long gone. I can't believe anyone would actually disagree with this one.
This is the one that I disagreed with the most. I always make my cases deep enough to mount deep modules. I have several indispensible deep modules, including a couple of old Doepfer modules and a DIY dual LPG with sideways mounted PCBs. Also, take a look at all those 2 and 3hp modules - perpendicular mounting is the only way you are going to get a board behind the faceplate.

The big ones missing from your list:

- Thou shalt not try to cram a 20hp module into 8hp by using trimmer pots with no knobs. Make the faceplate as big as it needs to be.
- Thou shalt not design a digital module that has one or more 'alternative' modes that make it into a totally different module. I like Mutable modules, but if you want to make a reverb, make it as its own module, don't put it in the same home as a granular processor.
- Thou shalt NEVER design a module with an odd number of hp.
- Thou shalt design modules big enough to include all of the reasonably useful options on the faceplate, not on a separate 'breakout' panel (and definitely not on an odd-hp breakout panel).

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by Paranormal Patroler » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:24 am

So this is essentially a pet peeves in Eurorack thread!
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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by cackland » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:55 am

Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:24 am
So this is essentially a pet peeves in Eurorack thread!
Exactly!!

Tuj should simply design and release a golden standard module that is up to the specs demanded

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by Paranormal Patroler » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:10 am

Amongst others, I found this one the most amusing:
Thou shalt not design a digital module that has one or more 'alternative' modes that make it into a totally different module. I like Mutable modules, but if you want to make a reverb, make it as its own module, don't put it in the same home as a granular processor
This is a common misconception, there is no reverb in Clouds. There is a diffuser, which is a very useful thing to have on any granular module. It's standard practice in granular synthesis. Misusing it is on you, not Mutable. :hihi:

And by the way, Oliverb was a hack, it wasn't an alternative mode on the original module. The alternative modes are extras, they have zero impact on the main module. Again, running into issues with these is on the user, not the design.
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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by tuj » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:19 am

If I was trying to write a 'gold standard', there's an awful lot more I would have defined like modulation voltage ranges. I feel like everyone thinks I'm pretentious when really I'm just trying to point out there are some common-sense things that I, apparently, am shocked we can't agree on. Like power protection. Who really thinks it's a good idea NOT to include it in their design? Yet there are still people doing it.

What about weird shit on the CV bus? What happens if you mix two brands of modules that are trying to use their own protocols on the same bus? I feel like that one could genuinely puzzle people since a lot of wigglers are not even aware of the CV/gate bus system.

But I mean I guess this IS muffs, so instead we'll talk about the lexicon of curse words and why Clouds isn't a reverb. :doh:

Um, I'm sorry? :sstorm:

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by Paranormal Patroler » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:38 am

tuj wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:19 am
I feel like everyone thinks I'm pretentious when really I'm just trying to point out there are some common-sense things that I, apparently, am shocked we can't agree on.
The only issue that I see on your OP is that you make the most typical of user errors, you think everyone's requirements fit your own. Designing anything like that is a mistake. I do agree with some of the most obvious points you raised, which, for the most part, a lot of higher-end Eurorack manufacturers already adhere to, but not all of your points make sense as a law. For example:

  • Why no perpendicular PCBs? 2hp does it all the time and not all of their modules fit in shallow cases. It's perfectly fine. Read the depth specs of a module before you buy it.
  • Why make firmware user-updatable if you have good QA and beta testing? It's not always a good option design-wise to add that in and not everyone wants to constantly update their designs. I've had a few chip updates on modules sent in by manufacturers, and I'm fine with it. It's a good point to raise but from a cost/benefit analysis it might not always be the best way to go.
  • I personally don't always need panel references. Eurorack modules are far from being accurate anyway, so why do you need lines on a panel?
  • You forgot to add "THOU SHALL ALWAYS ADD FULL SPECS ON YOUR SITE AND/OR DOCUMENTATION" which is a mistake I see way too often. I've pinged more than my fair share of manufacturers to get the specs and update Modular Grid. You're welcome!
To top all of the above, it'd be easy, if we really wanna talk design, to contest the points that I think everyone (including myself) easily agrees with, the first two:
THOU SHALL USE POWER POLARITY PROTECTION.
THOU SHALL USE BOXED HEADERS ON POWER CONNECTORS.
  • Why waste time doing that when you can design modules to work when you plug a power connector either way? We can drop the red-line paradigm completely.

And yeah, apologies for the derailment about Clouds. I just couldn't help myself, I had to tease Jumbuktu a bit! :hihi:
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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by cackland » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:39 am

Shit is raining down on you, and for the unfortunate reason (IMO) is because it comes across as a little demanding for manufacturers to conform to design standards. (Not eurorack standards)

I do agree on power protection and boxes headers (which is something I implement in all my designs) however most of the rest are personal demands. Aesthetic design features are what differentiate one manufacturer to the other.

You make these ‘commandments’ now, in 5 years, someone else will come along with NEW commandments.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by Christopher Winkels » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:56 am

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by a_b_d » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:05 am

@tuj, it would be great to get some hard data on this via a publicly-accessible survey shared on this and related forums. Would you be interested in that? I'm a data professional and would be happy to design it and analyze the results.

The question isn't "what can literally everyone agree on?" A survey could answer the real question, "what does the Eurorack community generally find to be essential module components or design features?"

And yeah, online surveys aren't great but they are loads better than whatever this thread turned into.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by a_b_d » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:14 am

attacca wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:53 am
Try getting deployed to a warzone, or watch a 12 year old get beheaded with a dull knife if you want offended at what you see. Gain some perspective.
I would encourage you to research the term "rape culture" and sexual assault statistics. Words reflect the way we think about the world and the way we think about the world is how we act in it. There is so much more at stake than you either know or are willing to admit.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by tuj » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:15 am

Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:38 am
Why no perpendicular PCBs? Why make firmware user-updatable if you have good QA and beta testing? I personally don't always need panel references. Why waste time doing that when you can design modules to work when you plug a power connector either way? We can drop the red-line paradigm completely.
I didn't say *no* perpendicular PCB's, you are misreading me. I said no excessively deep PCB's. Shit even DivKid has a post where he had to use spacers to get a module to "fit" into his case because it was too deep. 2HP, ES, many are fine. Try fitting the Cynthia Saw Animator in your case.

Firmware should be updatable because most shops are 1 or 2 man affairs and you're going to make a mistake unless it's a dead simple thing. Even something really simple like the Schlussig by LPZW is potentially going to gain new life by adding an alternate firmware mode and the designer thought it was only good for mutes. Turns out it can do a bit more when we all brainstorm together.

Have you ever performed a patch? It's useful to know that I should go between 10'o-clock and 12'o-clock with this knob and actually have some markings to show you where those degree positions are. I'm not asking for calibrated dials, again you are misreading me. I'm asking for simple gradient clock markings like on Livewire modules. It's super-useful when you are working within a small sweet spot, particularly if you are changing things dynamically and want to repeat something. And it doesn't take anything but ink to print the little lines around a knob. Encoders are obviously exempt.

I'm not an analog circuit designer, so I don't know the tradeoffs with making power non-polarized. I'm a little uncertain why you think this is necessary, especially if a module is using both +12 and -12 rails in the circuitry? My impression was that some of the Mutable clones are able to get away with the non polarization because they are unipolar in operation. Am I wrong?

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by mskala » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:10 am

Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:10 am
This is a common misconception, there is no reverb in Clouds. There is a diffuser, which is a very useful thing to have on any granular module. It's standard practice in granular synthesis. Misusing it is on you, not Mutable. :hihi:
It's called "reverb" in the manual, and in the firmware source code (class Reverb in reverb.h). There is also a diffuser, but that's a separate feature from the reverb, activated by setting the "texture" knob near its maximum.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by Paranormal Patroler » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:37 pm

mskala wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:10 am
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:10 am
This is a common misconception, there is no reverb in Clouds. There is a diffuser, which is a very useful thing to have on any granular module. It's standard practice in granular synthesis. Misusing it is on you, not Mutable. :hihi:
It's called "reverb" in the manual, and in the firmware source code (class Reverb in reverb.h). There is also a diffuser, but that's a separate feature from the reverb, activated by setting the "texture" knob near its maximum.
Yeah, and the idea about losing polarity is impossible, I was just being crass. :cloud:
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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by mskala » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:06 pm

Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:37 pm
Yeah, and the idea about losing polarity is impossible, I was just being crass. :cloud:
Um, okay? It seems relatively easy to put in a bridge rectifier - four diodes instead of the usual two protection diodes - on a module with a 10-pin power connector. Whether that's a good idea may be another question, but this isn't a thread about good ideas.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by 22tape » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:22 pm

I heart Metasonix.

Anyone who has run a small business knows how annoying and entitled customers are. The customer is NOT always right. In fact, they're almost always wrong.

The best is when customers clutch their pearls because their complaint didn't garner them to free shit :lol:

But yeah, research before you buy.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by Jumbuktu » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:09 pm

Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:10 am
Amongst others, I found this one the most amusing:
Thou shalt not design a digital module that has one or more 'alternative' modes that make it into a totally different module. I like Mutable modules, but if you want to make a reverb, make it as its own module, don't put it in the same home as a granular processor
This is a common misconception, there is no reverb in Clouds. There is a diffuser, which is a very useful thing to have on any granular module. It's standard practice in granular synthesis. Misusing it is on you, not Mutable. :hihi:

And by the way, Oliverb was a hack, it wasn't an alternative mode on the original module. The alternative modes are extras, they have zero impact on the main module. Again, running into issues with these is on the user, not the design.
I didn't mean the diffuser in Clouds. It was the principle I meant. I should have gone and looked up what the alternative modes actually are. Legitimate comment, I can ignore the alternative features and I do. It just clutters up the manual and my head.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by Lux A Turner » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:21 pm

Is it too late to veer back on topic for a moment? I'd just like to add...

THOU SHALT LABEL THINE MODULES WITH LEGIBLE FONTS.
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