the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Cwejman, Livewire, TipTop Audio, Doepfer etc... Get your euro on!

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by a_b_d » Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:25 pm

mskala wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:10 pm
"No-nonsense design and functionality guidelines" that seem obvious to an end-user are often wrong when tested in real life. The space pen story is a good example: https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... nasa-spen/ "Use a pencil instead of a fancy expensive space-rated ballpoint!" sounds like a good idea, and isn't.
Standards are typically designed with input from all stakeholders and, if done well, serve everyone.

And yes, that's a good story but anecdotes != evidence.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by metasonix » Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:29 pm

tuj wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:56 am
  • THOU SHALL USE POWER POLARITY PROTECTION.
  • THOU SHALL USE BOXED HEADERS ON POWER CONNECTORS.
  • THOU SHALL INCLUDE AN INDICATOR STRIPE ON ALL KNOBS.
  • THOU SHALL INCLUDE A PANEL REFERENCE OF KNOB POSITION (degree markings).
  • THOU SHALL MAKE THY PANEL WITH SLOTS NOT HOLES FOR MOUNTING.
  • THOU SHALL INDICATE INPUT AND OUTPUT JACKS CONSISTENTLY VIA THE PANEL MARKINGS.
  • THOU SHALL MAKE THY FIRMWARE USER UPDATE-ABLE.
  • THOU SHALL WRITE AND PUBLISH A USER MANUAL FOR THY MODULE.
  • THOU SHALL USE ACCURATE HP MEASUREMENTS / INCREMENTS.
  • THOU SHALL NOT MOUNT DEEP PCB'S PERPENDICULAR TO THE PANEL.
lol

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by drewfx1 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:09 am

mskala wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:16 pm
What's the rationale for wanting slots instead of (circular) holes?
You must not have a rack that uses sliding nuts.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by Stab Frenzy » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:00 am

Yes Powder wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:21 pm
mskala wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:16 pm
What's the rationale for wanting slots instead of (circular) holes?
I've encountered a few times where for whatever reason, a module just won't screw into my rack. Like, one of the screw holes (only one out of four!) will be off just enough that I can't get a screw in because it's less than a millimeter out of alignment with my screw rails.
Yeah tapped strips suck for this (and for rearranging modules), another reason why sliding nuts are so handy.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by tuj » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:02 am

Yes Powder wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:09 pm
Only ones I agree on are "Slots Not Holes", and maybe the one about polarity protection.
As for the "Accurate HP Measurements", is that actually a problem? I don't think I've ever seen (or at least I don't own) a module that isn't the amount it says.
Accurate HP measurement means not being 0.5mm too wide to fit in the specified HP the modules is *supposed* to take up. Some manufacturers use panels that are on the wide side of the HP specification and you can't put them next to other modules without overlapping an edge.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by tuj » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:04 am

metasonix wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:29 pm
lol
Oh I forgot the Metasonix-specific commandment:

Thou shall not name thy module 'cunt' or variations thereof.

Image

Image

But hey you said yourself you don't care anymore so I don't know why you're even reading this. I guess you should thank Shawn for covering up your disgusting graphic with his thumb in that picture.
Last edited by tuj on Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by tuj » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:16 am

tuj wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:56 am
  • THOU SHALL USE POWER POLARITY PROTECTION.
  • THOU SHALL USE BOXED HEADERS ON POWER CONNECTORS.
  • THOU SHALL INCLUDE AN INDICATOR STRIPE ON ALL KNOBS.
  • THOU SHALL INCLUDE A PANEL REFERENCE OF KNOB POSITION (degree markings).
  • THOU SHALL MAKE THY PANEL WITH SLOTS NOT HOLES FOR MOUNTING.
  • THOU SHALL INDICATE INPUT AND OUTPUT JACKS CONSISTENTLY VIA THE PANEL MARKINGS.
  • THOU SHALL MAKE THY FIRMWARE USER UPDATE-ABLE.
  • THOU SHALL WRITE AND PUBLISH A USER MANUAL FOR THY MODULE.
  • THOU SHALL USE ACCURATE HP MEASUREMENTS / INCREMENTS.
  • THOU SHALL NOT MOUNT DEEP PCB'S PERPENDICULAR TO THE PANEL.
Since so many of you seem to surprisingly disagree, let's go over the rational. Power polarity protection should be obvious, it costs less than $2 to add and keeps modules from being blown up accidentally. Boxed headers are the same idea. Even if you have protection, the modular generally won't power up or will behave strangely with a module hooked up backwards therefore boxed headers again are a $0.10 part.

Stripes and panel markings around knobs cost very little as well since you're already printing the panel and the knobs mostly include an indicator, but not all of them! The idea behind markings is so you can have a reference when you are using a module that is 'tweaky', e.g. small sweet spots. It's easier to know and remember 'that knobs moves between 9 and 10-o-clock for good sounds in this patch'.

Slots should be obvious to anyone with threaded rails. And I hate sliding nuts even more, they rattle or you don't have enough or ones in the right spots, the only way to use them is to stuff the entire rail full of them I find.

Input and output labeling / color coding is just for usability. Sometimes I'm confused if a jack is an input or output. Clear shading around jacks or similar markings make that clear.

Firmware changes and no one is perfect. The idea of the user being able to update it is very important because it allows for bug fixes. Even if the manufacturer does not plan to add additional features, no one can say their design is 'bug free' that easily.

Manuals are a reference to certain modules that do not have manuals, only Wiki pages or forums to figure them out. This is woefully inadequate.

Accurate HP is staying to the HP specification and not making panels too wide or too narrow. I'd rather they error on the narrow side because I have a number of modules who's edges have to overlap because the HP is about 0.5-1mm too wide.

Deep PCB mounted perpendicular to the panel won't fit in most peoples' cases nowadays. There was a time when everyone had a 6-8" deep case but that's long gone. I can't believe anyone would actually disagree with this one.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by hzzzu » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:56 am

All check.

I’ll add THOU SHALL ADD EASTER EGGS IN THE PCB LABELS

Just now drawing the panel for our filter. 12hp - Y’all want two or four mounting slots for this? 8hp is ofc two and 14hp is always four.
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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by Schrank » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:47 am

hzzzu wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:56 am
All check.

I’ll add THOU SHALL ADD EASTER EGGS IN THE PCB LABELS

Just now drawing the panel for our filter. 12hp - Y’all want two or four mounting slots for this? 8hp is ofc two and 14hp is always four.
Four slots for 12 hp please! I like to mount everything firm and stable. 10hp and 2 slots is ok, still better with four.
Last edited by Schrank on Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by Schrank » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:51 am

Double

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by mskala » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:42 am

drewfx1 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:09 am
mskala wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:16 pm
What's the rationale for wanting slots instead of (circular) holes?
You must not have a rack that uses sliding nuts.
True. Can't stand them. In fact, if I were writing a list of COMMANDMENTS FOR EURORACK RACK MANUFACTURERS, then THOU SHALT NOT USE SLIDING NUTS I AM THE LORD would probably be top of the list. Threaded holes that are in the right places, and matching holes in the modules, seem to make bodges like slots and sliding nuts unnecessary. And I'm just waiting for our favourite "well, actually" curmudgeon to pop up here and explain that well the slots in Eurorack panels originated in imitation of the slots for mounting special hardware used by the Eurocard standard from which Eurorack is derived and they aren't actually meant for correcting misalignment at all and we're all in a state of sin for using Eurorack instead of Eurocard, because Eurorack is not really a standard and specifies the wrong connectors and also doesn't actually specify anything because it's not a standard, etc.

But as this thread makes clear, different people have different ideas of what's useful. Some people want sliding nuts. And that's why lists of commandments are unlikely to become universal consensus.

In the absence of a formal standards process, about the only way to define what is and isn't Eurorack is to say that it's Eurorack if Doepfer does it. But that breaks many of the COMMANDMENTS on the posted list. The Doepfer A-100 System includes modules without reverse power protection, specifically forbids polarized power connectors, uses threaded strips and round mounting holes, includes deep modules with perpendicular PCBs, doesn't have consistent markings for output jack sockets, etc. Nobody has the authority to promulgate a standard that will actually be followed except to lead by example, and that's what I recommend to the original poster. Go make modules commercially for a while, find out the hard way what works both for manufacturing and in the market, and if your ideas are worth following, you'll succeed and others will either follow you or fail.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by tuj » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:15 am

mskala wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:42 am
Nobody has the authority to promulgate a standard that will actually be followed except to lead by example, and that's what I recommend to the original poster.
I am not promulgating a specification or standard but rather posted as a starting point for conversation.

It's been a *long* time since Dieter designed the A-100 specs and mostly they have been really good. But we are starting to see some deviations in the past few years that are somewhat concerning.

- Usage of the mostly unused CV bus for different things by different manufacturers, leading to potential incompatibility or errors if mixed on the same bus.

- Spacing inconsistencies of panels.

- Most manufacturers are using power protection and many are switching to boxed headers. Certainly at the bus board the boxed headers make a ton more sense.

- CV requirement inconsistencies. Dieter's stuff generally all plays nice with the other A-100 modules but other manufacturers have made their modules respond to -5 to 5v, or 0 to 5v, or -10 to +10v, or 0 to 10v. All of these require scaling and offsets to get two modules to play nice, depending. I didn't bring this one up but I would want Eurorack 2.0 to address it.

So my larger point is that there are some very basic things I think we can or should be able to agree upon, although the responses in this thread are proof that of course that won't happen.

By my last count, there are roughly 200+ manufacturers of modules, more if you count short-run and defunct folks.

Is it really that much of a stretch to ask for fucking polarity protection?

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by Yes Powder » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:38 am

tuj wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:04 am
metasonix wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:29 pm
lol
Oh I forgot the Metasonix-specific commandment:

Thou shall not name thy module 'cunt' or variations thereof.

But hey you said yourself you don't care anymore so I don't know why you're even reading this. I guess you should thank Shawn for covering up your disgusting graphic with his thumb in that picture.
I love how any time Eric says something, someone brings up the iCunt as though that invalidates him. Like dudes, it was ten years ago!
And it wasn't even a module.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by suthnear » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:56 am

-12V clearly indicated on the PCB would be very useful regardless of things like boxed headers and power protection...

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by a_b_d » Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:15 am

Yes Powder wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:38 am
tuj wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:04 am
metasonix wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:29 pm
lol
Oh I forgot the Metasonix-specific commandment:

Thou shall not name thy module 'cunt' or variations thereof.

But hey you said yourself you don't care anymore so I don't know why you're even reading this. I guess you should thank Shawn for covering up your disgusting graphic with his thumb in that picture.
I love how any time Eric says something, someone brings up the iCunt as though that invalidates him. Like dudes, it was ten years ago!
And it wasn't even a module.
Has he sincerely apologized and demonstrated anti-misogynist action since then? If not then yup, invalidated. That thing is beyond disgusting.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by tuj » Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:18 am

Yes Powder wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:38 am
I love how any time Eric says something, someone brings up the iCunt as though that invalidates him. Like dudes, it was ten years ago!
And it wasn't even a module.
- bellend
- butt probe
- scrotum smasher
- a 'scrotum up your ass' control
- assblaster

Are all other Metasonix models.

You know, you're right it has been a while since the 'iCunt' but Eric said himself "I don't care anymore".

Could it be that the new module names that have no vulgar/misogynistic/homophobic references are a sign of, gosh, caring? And it wasn't like he has contributed in any meaningful way (as a manufacturer of his stature could actually do) to this thread. I'd be interested in what Eric has to actually say, but I guess we're not getting that.

EDIT: Oops I forgot beastiality. There's also a 'Horse Fucker'.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by Yes Powder » Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:55 am

a_b_d wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:15 am
Has he sincerely apologized and demonstrated anti-misogynist action since then? If not then yup, invalidated. That thing is beyond disgusting.

"Beyond" disgusting? Really? The cover to Mayhem's album Dawn of the Black Hearts is beyond disgusting. (Make sure to look up a high-res version of it, if you do.) This is just a bit crude and crass at worst! It hardly demands an apology.
tuj wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:18 am
- bellend
- butt probe
- scrotum smasher
- a 'scrotum up your ass' control
- assblaster
Are all other Metasonix models.

WIth the exception of the Bellend, those are all even older than the TX3. And "Scrotum up your ass" was a control on the Scrotum Smasher, not even a module. Sure makes the list look bigger, though.
tuj wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:18 am
You know, you're right it has been a while since the 'iCunt' but Eric said himself "I don't care anymore".
Could it be that the new module names that have no vulgar/misogynistic/homophobic references are a sign of, gosh, caring? And it wasn't like he has contributed in any meaningful way (as a manufacturer of his stature could actually do) to this thread. I'd be interested in what Eric has to actually say, but I guess we're not getting that.

If you're that interested, you can go watch the Ken Flux Pierce interview, where he talks about this and other things. But I'm guessing you won't.
tuj wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:18 am
EDIT: Oops I forgot beastiality. There's also a 'Horse Fucker'.

It's HORSE COCK, thank you very much. (The caps are important.) And it's a lovely VCA.


NOW BACK ON TOPIC!
Metasonix modules
-Have polarity protection
-Have an indicator stripe on all knobs
-Have degree markings on panels when possible
-Use slots not holes for mounting
-Consistently indicate input and output jacks
-Have user manuals
-Have accurate HP measurements
-Do not mount PCBs perpendicular to the circuit panel

I'd say the probable reason he lol'd at you is because you're writing commandments as though you want all manufacturers who don't follow these to suddenly do so as though you're some kind of Eurorack Moses. You're not the first to call for more standardization, and and you probably won't be the last. As long as the Euro market is as large as it is though, it's not going to happen.
Elby Designs has been trying to push the Eurosynth standard for four years now, and while it has some great suggestions, all the Mutables, Makenoises, and even Doepfers in the industry are not rushing out to adopt it. Why? Because doing so would require revamping their entire product line, and potentially even throw off their aesthetic!
If you want standardization, get a Dotcom.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by tuj » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:10 pm

Image

That out of the way, I agree the Metasonix modules meet all the 'commandments'. They are not my cup of tea but I don't have anything against the modules themselves, nor against Eric, but I also don't profess to follow all the interviews with everyone. I just remember a video of him at NAMM saying that, and then writing it on the F-1 box, which if I'm not mistaken, was actually the 'horse fucker' to start with and then he changed it to F-1 and ascribed below it that he didn't give a 'rat-shit' anymore. Ok cool, geez I didn't know that NOT calling your box 'horse fucker' might be a smart idea? Let alone the 'iCunt'. I mean that's not even a statement like something stupid someone said once or twice or repeated on FB. It's a fucking product. Someone did the panel art for that. But again, he doesn't care. Or didn't. I don't know which.

:omg:

Back to OT, I think it's sad to say that a point of discussion is well, pointless because no one will agree. No one agrees on politics but I think there are several networks dedicated to just that. Ultimately users can make THEIR PREFERENCES known, either through writing or through the pocketbook. I mean really, what do you have against slots anyway?

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by Yes Powder » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:22 pm

tuj wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:10 pm
I mean really, what do you have against slots anyway?
Wha? I actually said in a previous post that "slots not holes" was the only thing on the list I completely agreed with.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by tuj » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:39 pm

Sorry then, what do you have against polarity protection / boxed headers / knob indicators?

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by Orange » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:56 pm

tuj wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:18 am
Yes Powder wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:38 am
I love how any time Eric says something, someone brings up the iCunt as though that invalidates him. Like dudes, it was ten years ago!
And it wasn't even a module.
- bellend
- butt probe
- scrotum smasher
- a 'scrotum up your ass' control
- assblaster

Are all other Metasonix models.

You know, you're right it has been a while since the 'iCunt' but Eric said himself "I don't care anymore".

Could it be that the new module names that have no vulgar/misogynistic/homophobic references are a sign of, gosh, caring? And it wasn't like he has contributed in any meaningful way (as a manufacturer of his stature could actually do) to this thread. I'd be interested in what Eric has to actually say, but I guess we're not getting that.

EDIT: Oops I forgot beastiality. There's also a 'Horse Fucker'.
Pfffff. Metasonic likes naughty metaphors. Yes, these are metaphors. And naughty. So what?
You really think it was his intention to smash some scrotums or to promote beastiality etc? :roll: You seem to decide that his intentions are evil.
I call it 'non intentional offense' :mrgreen:
I don't own these modules, but the names give me a very good impression of the sound :lol:

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by mskala » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:31 pm

Every time you guys spell it "beastiality" a pony loses her wings.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by Yes Powder » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:03 pm

tuj wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:39 pm
Sorry then, what do you have against polarity protection / boxed headers / knob indicators?
Absolutely nothing.
I just think that trying to get [looks up number...] 300+ manufacturers to agree on design standards and subsequently revamp their existing products would be like herding cats.

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by tuj » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:47 am

Orange wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:56 pm
Pfffff. Metasonic likes naughty metaphors. Yes, these are metaphors. And naughty. So what?
God damn, do I really need to repost the fucking dictionary definition of 'cunt'? How would you feel if he made a box called "e-negro"? Would you say that's just metaphorical? Especially if it had a cartoon black man shucking and jiving on the box?

This isn't the discussion I wanted to have... :bang:

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Re: the Eurorack manufacturer COMMANDMENTS

Post by Paranormal Patroler » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:20 am

And yet it continues. Let's agree to leave Metasonix out of it. This thread seems to be losing track quickly.
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