Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

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dangayle
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Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by dangayle » Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:48 pm

I just got a Viol Ruina hoping that it was going to be a nice 4hp filter for my Manis Iteritas, but I discovered that it just kills the bass when I try to turn up the res. Same thing with my Qu-bit Tone, and any number of other filters. On the other hand, I know the Filter 8 and E440 filters either compensate for it or have a different filter design that prevents your bass from being scooped out.

What other low pass filters are out there that are suitable for bass duty, that don't cut low frequencies when you turn up the q?

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by adaris » Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:58 pm

Ripples

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starthief
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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by starthief » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:07 pm

Ripples, Serge VCFQ and Angle Grinder don't lose bass as resonance goes up.

(On Angle Grinder it's not immediately obvious, but "damping" is reverse resonance. On the other hand, if you turn up some of the Grind sliders instead, you get a somewhat resonance-like effect and it does lose a little bass.)

If I remember right (though I no longer have them to test right now) Three Sisters, Belgrad and QPAS also don't lose bass, but the Doepfer A-102 does.
Last edited by starthief on Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by MoyaMoya » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:09 pm

What Adaris said :sb:
The new Analog Renaissance REV-1 kit offers Q compensation for the prophet 5 REV3..
and in theory is applicable to the Pro one
Now that these components are available and circuit diagrams are floating around it'll be interesting to see if any of it makes its way into euro

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by cackland » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:11 pm

:guinness:

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by dp4 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:14 pm

I know you mentioned but, joranalogue filter 8
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tehyar
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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by tehyar » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:16 pm

Roland 505

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attacca
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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by attacca » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:16 pm

I would say Ripples as well but mine does have a noticeable drop in bass, not as bad as others but its still there. I may end up getting a Ripples V2 and see how it behaves.

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by dp4 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:21 pm

oh also, the rossum evolution has a q-level compensation - can dial in settings that don’t eat the bass


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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by anselmi » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:32 pm

it´s modular...use a trick to solve this

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by Michael O. » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:33 pm

As Starthief said, the vcfq fits the bill in general, and the Toppobrillo Multifilter is a very similar design in eurorack format. Probably my favorite modular filter in general because it is both versatile and has a very wide sweet spot (the two qualities are usually mutually exclusive, imo).

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by adaris » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:36 pm

Modcan multimode filter is another one.

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by MoyaMoya » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:37 pm

Just a quick question as to technique..would eq'ing before adding resonance help with this?
Like guitar players who purposefully cut out bass frequencies before adding distortion to help prevent the mudd :despair:

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by Schrank » Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:59 pm

Intellijel Polaris has a bass compensation circuit.


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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by ablearcher » Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:04 pm

100 grit!

I designed it, but this is one of the things I designed it for. Most filter types will lose bass as you turn up the resonance unless it is compensated for somehow, how this should be done depends on the filter topology.

The Angle Grinder does not have compensation for volume/bass over resonance but has a rather chaotic resonance structure which does all sorts of strange things.

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by dangayle » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:35 pm

ablearcher wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:04 pm
100 grit!

I designed it, but this is one of the things I designed it for. Most filter types will lose bass as you turn up the resonance unless it is compensated for somehow, how this should be done depends on the filter topology.

The Angle Grinder does not have compensation for volume/bass over resonance but has a rather chaotic resonance structure which does all sorts of strange things.
Awesome. I'm really interested in both of those.

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by 22tape » Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:11 pm

Schippmann VCF-02. From the manual--

Drop control – controls the loss of signal level (Drop) below the cut-off frequency (resp. passed through frequency range) when resonance increases. Range between -12 dB and 0 dB; only active at low-pass settings (LED lights up yellow)

Emph control – adjusts the emphasis of resonance and thus controls the level of the self-oscillation between 0.05 (weak emphasis/low selfoscillation level) and 1 (strong emphasis/high self-oscillation level).
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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by starthief » Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:55 pm

ablearcher wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:04 pm
The Angle Grinder does not have compensation for volume/bass over resonance but has a rather chaotic resonance structure which does all sorts of strange things.
Ah... got lucky I guess when I quickly tested it :)

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by dubonaire » Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:04 pm

Rossum Evolution.

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by Navs » Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:52 am

General rule of thumb: 24dB filters will seem to cut the bass, 12dB filters less so. Also, multimode filters tend to be the sort of topology where this doesn't happen ... and they tend to be 12dB filters.

But that's not always the case.

So, e.g., while the Cwejman MMF-1 is multimode and does have a 12dB mode, it does thin the bass with higher resonance. You can compensate by patching/boosting but this also changes the resonance response (think Korg MS-20 filter).

Filters I have used than don't, or compensate: Plan B Model 12, Doepfer SEM, Serge '73, Toppobrillo Multifilter.

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by dubonaire » Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:13 am

Filters that use the new SSI2140 which is an update of Dave Rossum's SSM2040 benefit from Q compensation and a bunch of other advantages, which the Rossum Evolution fully exploits.

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by ersatzplanet » Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:10 pm

This is one of the reason the classic Moog filter always sounded so "phat". The transistor ladder topology, when done correctly, attenuates the bass less than the others. Many LP filter topologies almost turn into asymmetrical bandpass filters when the resonance is turned up.

We use to do a classic oscilloscope trick to check this out. Use a ramp wave to sweep a sine wave while at the same time control the horizontal sweep of the scope. This will make a very crude spectrum display. You can plug the same sine into the filter, plug it into the vertical scope control, turn up the Q, and easily see how the filter reshapes itself.
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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by scragz » Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:57 pm

My only transistor ladder filter is the Happy Nerding MMM which might not drop bass but drops so much volume when you turn up the resonance that I'm probably gonna get rid of it.

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by lisa » Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:19 pm

My Polivoks kept much of the bass even when the resonance went high. On the other hand it was really unstable. :D

The Polivoks clones in eurorack that I've tried seems to have the same characteristic, but are more stable.
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