Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

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helix
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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by helix » Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:20 pm

Off Topic
anselmi wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:32 pm
it´s modular...use a trick to solve this

What a helpful comment

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by Michael » Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:28 pm

ersatzplanet wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:10 pm
This is one of the reason the classic Moog filter always sounded so "phat". The transistor ladder topology, when done correctly, attenuates the bass less than the others. Many LP filter topologies almost turn into asymmetrical bandpass filters when the resonance is turned up.
Interesting - I have often read/been told the opposite. My understanding has been that bass drop-off with increasing resonance is an inherent property of the transistor ladder design of the classic Moog LP filter. If I remember correctly there is a reference in original 904a documentation to the attenuation of frequencies below the cutoff with increasing resonance.
Last edited by Michael on Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by oldenjon » Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:35 pm

All state variable filters
ersatzplanet wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:10 pm
This is one of the reason the classic Moog filter always sounded so "phat". The transistor ladder topology, when done correctly, attenuates the bass less than the others. Many LP filter topologies almost turn into asymmetrical bandpass filters when the resonance is turned up.
How do you figure?
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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by anselmi » Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:17 pm

helix wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:20 pm
Off Topic
anselmi wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:32 pm
it´s modular...use a trick to solve this

What a helpful comment
thanks, yours too

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by Yes Powder » Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:22 pm

My Bard Vacuform seems to hold onto bass pretty well even when the resonance is cranked.

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by ersatzplanet » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:14 pm

Michael wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:28 pm
ersatzplanet wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:10 pm
This is one of the reason the classic Moog filter always sounded so "phat". The transistor ladder topology, when done correctly, attenuates the bass less than the others. Many LP filter topologies almost turn into asymmetrical bandpass filters when the resonance is turned up.
Interesting - I have often read/been told the opposite. My understanding has been that bass drop-off with increasing resonance is an inherent property of the transistor ladder design of the classic Moog LP filter. If I remember correctly there is a reference in original 904a documentation to the attenuation of frequencies below the cutoff with increasing resonance.
I was once told this in the very dark past as to why the reason Moog synths, especially the Mini-Moog, were prized for use as a bass synth. The fullness of the bass survived the high Q settings. This may be totally apocryphal in nature. I have never owned a Moog or played on one for very long. I thought this was the reason they are the most cloned filters out there.

I rescind my statement on this. Someone with a Moog can chime in on this.
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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by TH » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:02 pm

My Doepfer A-102 diode ladder filter losses a lot of bass when the resonance is turned up. This is as I expected, being a ladder filter, but what surprised me was how much the overall volume drops with even a small amount of resonance. I don't have enough experience to know if this is normal for all diode ladder filters.

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by Dave Peck » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:04 pm

The SynthTech / MOTM 440 filter definitely retains massive bass even at the highest resonance settings, at least in the original 5U format. Not sure about the Euro version, which has slightly different features and performance. The 5U version is by far my favorite 24 dB lowpass filter.

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by muffdiver » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:09 pm

Yep, Hexinverter Red Dragon (Polivoks clone) keeps the bass.
---,---,---,---,---,---,---,---,---,---,---,---,---,---,---,---,

---`---`---`---`---`---`---`---`---`---`---`---`---`---`

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by Michael O. » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:15 pm

TH wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:02 pm
My Doepfer A-102 diode ladder filter losses a lot of bass when the resonance is turned up. This is as I expected, being a ladder filter, but what surprised me was how much the overall volume drops with even a small amount of resonance. I don't have enough experience to know if this is normal for all diode ladder filters.
That abnormal behavior is normal for the 102, and is a bit like how the EMS filter works. I’d describe it almost as if bass/low frequencies are boosted at zero resonance, then are relatively flat in terms of response with a slight bit of added feedback/resonance, and then get attenuated with any additional resonance beyond that neutral sweet spot. Totally strange filters, but can be just right in the proper patch.

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by kay_k » Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:10 am

Moog ladder drops in volume and bass when resonance goes up! That was the case on every moog I touched!
If you want a Ladder filter that doesn't do this get the Rossum Evolution!
http://www.rossum-electro.com/products/evolution/

Ripples is the answer to the OPs question as multiple comments already pointed out. Plus you get a free VCA that you can use for niffty envelope tricks & velocity on your percussion line.

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by tuj » Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:23 am

Dendrites has resonance compensation to avoid this problem.

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by Royalston » Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:18 am

Michael wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:28 pm
ersatzplanet wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:10 pm
This is one of the reason the classic Moog filter always sounded so "phat". The transistor ladder topology, when done correctly, attenuates the bass less than the others. Many LP filter topologies almost turn into asymmetrical bandpass filters when the resonance is turned up.
Interesting - I have often read/been told the opposite. My understanding has been that bass drop-off with increasing resonance is an inherent property of the transistor ladder design of the classic Moog LP filter. If I remember correctly there is a reference in original 904a documentation to the attenuation of frequencies below the cutoff with increasing resonance.
I agree - my (real) minimoog loses all bass when the resonance is anything above zero! Seems to happen with lots of ladder filter clones too.

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by galanter2 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:22 pm

(I know this isn’t a modular solution, but it’s interesting that the Hydrasynth has a compensated filter type (among many) that doesn’t lose low end response with higher resonance/Q.)

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by adaris » Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:24 pm

I was playing around with Cinnamon today, it's another one that doesn't lose low end or volume in low pass mode when resonance is turned up. Maybe a bit of low end in high pass mode.

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Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

Post by Aaronautical001 » Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:00 am

    dubonaire wrote:
    Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:13 am
    Filters that use the new SSI2140 which is an update of Dave Rossum's SSM2040 benefit from Q compensation and a bunch of other advantages, which the Rossum Evolution fully exploits.

    I was going to offer the tip-top z2040. Excellent low pass filter. I don’t know a lot about the history behind the electronics, but looks like it could be associated with dubonaires comment...

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    Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

    Post by octopusdna » Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:05 am

    Supposedly Ripples v2 is a significant improvement over the original in terms of preserving the bass -- I don't have one, but my friend does, and it seems to be true to my ears.

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    Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

    Post by lisa » Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:11 am

    octopusdna wrote:
    Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:05 am
    Supposedly Ripples v2 is a significant improvement over the original in terms of preserving the bass -- I don't have one, but my friend does, and it seems to be true to my ears.
    Odd. It doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere in the copy about the module that the new version is improved in any way when it comes to this aspect. Both the new and the old one has compensation for the resonance "loudness drop" built in.
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    Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

    Post by dubonaire » Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:36 am

    Aaronautical001 wrote:
    Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:00 am
      dubonaire wrote:
      Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:13 am
      Filters that use the new SSI2140 which is an update of Dave Rossum's SSM2040 benefit from Q compensation and a bunch of other advantages, which the Rossum Evolution fully exploits.

      I was going to offer the tip-top z2040. Excellent low pass filter. I don’t know a lot about the history behind the electronics, but looks like it could be associated with dubonaires comment...
      I can't be sure but I don't think tip-top uses the SSI2140. It's a good filter though.

      If these days if you want this problem solved look for a module that uses SSI2240 with Q compensation, which is CVable so you can dial it in. The Evolution is a filter that gives you a constant blend throughout the flavours.

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      Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

      Post by idontknow » Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:26 am

      Hm maybe you should give Altar a try?
      It's quite an underrated module imo; it's very versatile, full of possibilities and yet compact.
      Just got one in my rack and it pairs reaaally well with my korgasmatron. High quality sweeps, resonance is quite present but never too harsh, and I find the bass to stick really well in every filter "mode". From french house filter sweeps to agressive ducking, this is my go to end of chain filter atm (Yeah they look real nice too)
      ( https://www.ritualelectronics.com/products/altar )

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      Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

      Post by tuj » Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:32 am

      Vintage – Classic resonance, reminiscent of vintage designs. Permanently includes the Nucleus’ solid-bass feature, and adds a smoother top-end response.

      Q-comp – Gain compensated at high resonance to maintain low frequencies. Providing a firm and stable resonant sound, with slightly more saturated character, and flat top-end response.

      K-style – The beefiest of all modes, with a thick mid range and fat low-end, and an aggressive resonant sound.

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      Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

      Post by ersatzplanet » Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:40 am

      TH wrote:
      Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:02 pm
      My Doepfer A-102 diode ladder filter losses a lot of bass when the resonance is turned up. This is as I expected, being a ladder filter, but what surprised me was how much the overall volume drops with even a small amount of resonance. I don't have enough experience to know if this is normal for all diode ladder filters.
      There is a difference between a Diode ladder filter and a Transistor ladder filter. The Doepfer A-120 VCF1 is the transistor ladder filter modeled after the Moog design. The A-102 has this bit in it's webpage - "Module A-102 is a reproduction of the legendary low pass filter design that uses diodes in the filter stage as frequency controlling elements resulting in "strange" resonance behavior and frequency response as resonance and frequency are not independent from another."
      -James

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      Synthwerks is a proud member of the Mostly Modular Trade Association (http://www.mostlymodular.com).
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      Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

      Post by Cheekypete » Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:53 pm

      anselmi wrote:
      Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:32 pm
      it´s modular...use a trick to solve this
      What kind of trick would you recommend?

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      Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

      Post by Jee » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:20 pm

      Schippmann VCF-02 mentioned above has a drop function that rocks for this application (on top of being among the most fantastic filters out there).
      VCF-1 also is very strong lower range, I think it has a drop function too, built in (no control).

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      Re: Filters that do not cut the bass when you turn up the res

      Post by anselmi » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:35 pm

      Cheekypete wrote:
      Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:53 pm
      anselmi wrote:
      Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:32 pm
      it´s modular...use a trick to solve this
      What kind of trick would you recommend?
      If your oscillator has a separate output for different waveforms, try bypassing the filter with a sine or triangle wave and mixing it after the filter. This will compensate by reinforcing the fundamental (sine) and some harmonics (triangle)

      If you have a resonant HPF, try using it after the LPF to raise the bass with the resonant peak (use the cut to adjust it correctly)

      If you have a second LPF, set it as the resonant one but with zero resonance, mix the signal with the original. Phase cancellation can occur with some filters, so it might not work as expected. Try to invert the second signal to see if it works better.

      A variation of the last one: use the feedback to re-inject the output signal into the filter through the non-resonant filter and a mixer. In some filters this works, in others it does not. You will need something that can adds gain over unity, like a preamp to rise the the signal before the mixer.

      If your filter has CV resonance, try using an external multed control on a VCA that adds gain to the filter output. It may work, maybe not.

      Try combinations of all this, and of course an EQ

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