Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

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Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by yhiitming » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:14 am

Hi, I am a Logic Pro user.

I started my eurorack system and I also have some keyboard synth. I mainly make some ambient and experimental stuff, probably some "general" type of songs. I am not a "beat" guy (e.g. Hip Hop, Lo-Fi) and don't play live performance (maybe I don't need the session view on Ableton?).

I mainly use DAW to record and edit in Logic Pro (general purpose). Do you think is it worth to change to Ableton from Logic Pro? Because I am more focus on the eurorack and synth now. Are there any pros and cons for me? Or should I just focus on Logic Pro because many people said it is a "all-purpose" DAW.

Thanks a lot!

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by StrangeAttraction » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:38 am

If you know Logic well, I'd stick with it. Logic will be perfectly fine for recording and mixing.
If you plan to integrate the modular and the computer in a hybrid setup (send/receive CV/pitch/audio) then Ableton with Max for Live devices and CV tools is the more user-friendly option. Though you can still just use for example Expert Sleepers plugins in Logic or just send Midi to some Midi-CV module. But a lot of people here shy away from computers, and use them only as a tape recorder.
So, I'd say... stick with Logic for now. Also, Logic plugins are fantastic (compressor, eq, lots of saturation, reverbs, etc.).
Any questions, just ask. I have and used both.

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by lisa » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:39 am

Unless you want to use the CV Tools that you can get for Ableton Live I'd recommend that you stick with what you know. Learning a new DAW takes a lot of music making time away from you and you will never get it back.

EDIT: What StrangeAttraction said. :)
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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by dubonaire » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:54 am

I use both. It seems to me you may as well stay with Logic Pro, which I find better for arranging. But one of the things about Eurorack is you can very quickly lose what you had with one slight tweak and never get it back and the session view of Ableton Live works with this very well. It is after all a very sophisticated looper. I think Ableton Live is super easy to start using, so I wouldn't let the learning curve get in your way. Another aspect of Ableton Live is I think it is the best at routing and sends, and processing with sends in Ableton is one of its pluses, but may not be that big a deal for you. There are some technical aspects of Live which take a bit more time especially which Warp mode to use and timing compensation. I also think the integration of its devices and instruments is superior, and they've always eschewed skeuomorphism.

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by yhiitming » Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:42 am

I think I will have integration with my eurorack (e.g. sending cv).
Also, I found that Ableton can do many things easily (e.g. using LFO to modulate any parameter, or Logic can do it?) and many interesting "modular type" function.
But I also heard that using Ableton for arranging, mixing and editing is not good, is it true?
Or should I use both of them for different purpose?
Thanks!

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by mdoudoroff » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:55 am

If you’re considering moving to Ableton for CV integration, you should probably at least look at Bitwig, too.

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by EATyourGUITAR » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:17 am

For me, Ableton is both easier and more flexible. Logic has amazing virtual instruments but so does Ableton. Logic I think is easier to use the soft synths and drum machines. Ableton forces you to learn all about instrument racks, drum racks, fx racks before it really has any usability or advantages. Ableton has a whole load of ways to write custom software or macros. Logic has the mess of custom hot keys that you need to setup yourself to be any good. If you jump on someone else's system it becomes unusable but they won't let you change all the settings. Logic has some bugs and limitations with midi routing.

About warp modes in Ableton: turn warp off always. Unless you need to do time stretching, forget it. the warp function varies from ok to really bad sound depending on the algorithm and the content of the audio. Logic and protools have more transparent elastic audio but the way they are used in practice is mainly post production fixes so that you don't need a second take after the artist has left the building. In Ableton warp modes are for making hip hop, drum n bass, dance music etc. This is like comparing ircam ts with sony acid. Or melodyne + izotope rx vs sony acid. It depends on what you care about more.
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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by EATyourGUITAR » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:20 am

mdoudoroff wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:55 am
If you’re considering moving to Ableton for CV integration, you should probably at least look at Bitwig, too.
At this point, they are both really powerful. Every feature Ableton has, bitwig has now. Bitwig even has a modular synth built it in with modulations going to other parts of the program. It is really amazing the amount of features the modern producer has available.
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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by starthief » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:27 am

mdoudoroff wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:55 am
If you’re considering moving to Ableton for CV integration, you should probably at least look at Bitwig, too.
Was going to say the same. I use Bitwig with ES-3/ES-6 and am very happy with it.

(The couple of times I looked at Ableton I just didn't get along with it for whatever reason. In retrospect, maybe a little more patience or a better tutorial would have helped though. For Bitwig, I found the Thavius Beck beginner's guide to be excellent and didn't really need any of the more advanced ones to get comfortable with everything.)

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by mdoudoroff » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:53 am

When I was choosing (coming from Logic), one of Bitwig’s chief advantages is that when it crashes, it almost never loses any of your work. That was apparently a problem with Ableton; perhaps it has been remedied? Both products are updated pretty aggressively, so it’s difficult to keep track of pros/cons and that’s a moving target, anyways. For example, Bitwig had unique CV support first, but Ableton added a similar feature set shortly thereafter.

Generally, I prefer most aspects of the Bitwig interface, which is why I chose it. Inevitably, I have some gripes.
Last edited by mdoudoroff on Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by Kattefjaes » Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:02 am

starthief wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:27 am
(The couple of times I looked at Ableton I just didn't get along with it for whatever reason. In retrospect, maybe a little more patience or a better tutorial would have helped though. For Bitwig, I found the Thavius Beck beginner's guide to be excellent and didn't really need any of the more advanced ones to get comfortable with everything.)
It's easy to bounce off Ableton's colourful, flat but slightly cryptic UI the first time, I know I did. The third time I went back, I started getting along with it, though.

The trick with Ableton is to use their video tutorials on various topics- one of the nicest things about it. They make these incredibly watchable capsule tutorials that are short and utterly free of blather. They're to be found on youtube, which isn't immediately obvious, but are really helpful when you're faced with a wall of UI and "what now?" feeling.

Here's an example, their tutorial on sidechaining:


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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by xntrk » Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:55 am

Ableton has a free trial for 90 days. So if you are interested it might be worth downloading it to see if you like it. But seems if you already know one DAW my inclination would be to stick with it.

I have been trying to figure out what DAW to for a while now (for sequencing and recording). They all seem very similar from a zoomed out view. Ableton is appealing to me because of Max for Live. I'm a computer programmer so having the ability create what ever I need in Max is a big upside.

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by 6667 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:13 am

mdoudoroff wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:53 am
When I was choosing (coming from Logic), one of Bitwig’s chief advantages is that when it crashes, it almost never loses any of your work. That was apparently a problem with Ableton; perhaps it has been remedied?
this is the biggest issue w/ ableton i've had over the past decade or so of using it, and really my only main criticism of it. other thing is the file browser is kind of doodoo. i got past that tho, and stay for m4l ecosystem, there's a lot of stuff that people have made and that you can do with it that you're not going to be able to do w/ bitwig or logic.

i've made several attempts to switch over to bitwig, and honestly it is very very stable, its nothing like ableton at all in this aspect. in ableton, you never know when the next modulation mapping you make will be your last which is pretty hilarious/frustrating to your point. if it was bitwig that had purchased c74 + made the max integration, theres no doubt many people wouldn't be using ableton anymore

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by EATyourGUITAR » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:00 am

When Ableton purchased cycling 74 they effectively killed max msp by pricing it out of the market while giving away m4L to every bedroom producer for free. I gave them money and had contracts with them for paid sales goals. I gave these two companies almost $1000 combined. I was subscribed to max. All that money was a waste because they raised the price on both products so now after all the money I have an old Ableton 9.
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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by 6667 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:38 am

EATyourGUITAR wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:00 am
When Ableton purchased cycling 74 they effectively killed max msp by pricing it out of the market while giving away m4L to every bedroom producer for free. I gave them money and had contracts with them for paid sales goals. I gave these two companies almost $1000 combined. I was subscribed to max. All that money was a waste because they raised the price on both products so now after all the money I have an old Ableton 9.
meh i dont know what their sales looked like after their purchase of c74. i dont think they gave it away "for free", you have to buy suite which i believe is a lot more than standard last i checked. anyway if you've ever given a serious try at learning max coming from ableton's bundled m4l as a "bedroom producer", you run into the limitations of midi/audio routing very quickly... as well as a lot of inexplicable ableton crashes. also, a lot of the really common basic objects (pattrstorage/preset for example) work differently in not the most intuitive way in m4l vs standalone

point is, i dont think m4l makes standalone obsolete or anything

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by Stice » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:40 am

I switched from Logic to Ableton recently. Logic is more powerful, but more difficult to use. Logic’s stock effects sound better than Ableton’s - they sound fantastic. Automation in Logic offers more powerful controls but you have to learn all the commands and map keys and such, while Ableton’s is limited but easier to use. Logic still has the Environment, Ableton has M4L and CVTools.

I’ve learned that without a controller, Session view is useless for anything except the briefest sketches :lol:

They’re both great.

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by EATyourGUITAR » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:31 am

Session view has an entire programming language for generative music creation recording and playback. None of it requires anything more then a mouse. It makes self playing patches. Most users will not become Ableton instructors or computer programmers but I would disagree that you need a monome launchpad apc etc... I did that on the computer keyboard before I had controllers. M4L can even grab your session clips and rename them save to disk based on how they sound to some AI. You need to connect m4L to externals that hook into a tensor flow process but still with enough work, it can be done.
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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by 6667 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:38 am

EATyourGUITAR wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:31 am
Session view has an entire programming language for generative music creation recording and playback. None of it requires anything more then a mouse. It makes self playing patches. Most users will not become Ableton instructors or computer programmers but I would disagree that you need a monome launchpad apc etc... I did that on the computer keyboard before I had controllers. M4L can even grab your session clips and rename them save to disk based on how they sound to some AI. You need to connect m4L to externals that hook into a tensor flow process but still with enough work, it can be done.
yeah i dunno if you need to go as far as using tensorflow to rename clips, but ableton really opens up once you realize how powerful session view can be even without any m4l devices. agreed that you absolutely dont need a controller to use session view, and i've never actually enjoyed using most of the popular ones that use some pad grid layout (including push 2)... if you have more than a few tracks you end up just scrolling through a grid of random colors it seems kinda nonsensical to me. it would be really, really great if ableton expanded their key mapping functionality, i suspect that if they let people map key commands + modifiers to anything, people would stop buying all these controllers tbh

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by morrison23usa » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:00 pm

Is there any other DAW that replicates Ableton session view? CAVEAT - I’m not super familiar with Bitwig.

Came from mainly ProTools and the only thing I find myself missing from the standard linear DAW is comping/multiple takes - totally manageable in Ableton but more refined in some of the other DAWs.

But session view ... probably not intended as such but for songwriting it’s BANANAS.

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by mdoudoroff » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:12 pm

Bitwig has a session view much like Ableton, plus the ability to have the session view and arrange view on screen, side-by-side. BItwig also has the Grid, which is a virtual modular synth within Bitwig (that can also talk to hardware), so yeah, lots of generative capabilities there.

Bitwig does not have an elegant facility for tracking multiple takes like Logic has. It would be great to see that added. (For the record, I think Logic now has a Session view of its own, too—I haven’t tried it.)

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by axm311 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:38 pm

lisa wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:39 am
Unless you want to use the CV Tools that you can get for Ableton Live I'd recommend that you stick with what you know. Learning a new DAW takes a lot of music making time away from you and you will never get it back.

EDIT: What StrangeAttraction said. :)
I'll second this. I moved from Cubase to Ableton after 10+ years of Cubase and lost a good amount of productivity for a couple of years. Also, I am on my second foray into Eurorack so still a beginner, but I've also struggled to integrate CV Tools into my workflow (foe example) by patching out an LFO from my audio interface vs. just an LFO in my rack, and then dealing with CPU impacts, etc.

If you do switch over I echo what others have said in that session view has a lot of power and I'm learning about setting up probability with clip switching and things like that, but I really get stuck in the mud until I switch over to arrangement view. If I had to relearn Ableton I would have started with arrangement view first then move things over to session view to experiment with layout. I think seamlessly moving back and forth between them is my biggest learning opportunity.

This of course depends on your overall goals. For overall jamming session view can't be beat but I also spend a lot of time jamming and arrangement and automation etc. without recording anything to arrangement and when reopening the session later I'm basically back where I started,

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by EATyourGUITAR » Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:01 pm

clip launchers are pretty standard now across a lot of daws. blame ableton. people were doing this with lemur and max/msp since the lemur existed. before that is was the touch screen computer.

https://cdm.link/2019/02/dp10-adds-clip ... motus-daw/

https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation? ... ws.44.html

but I think the best way to record the modular is to grab long takes and chop them back to clips in post production. color coding your clips, renaming them, time stamping them etc.. gets in the way of tweaking the knobs on the modular. use it like a tape recorder. when you sit down at the computer you can dedicate your time to post production. ableton does this much faster than real time. then bounce stems to logic or protools. I really hate mixing in ableton. I don't really like the automation for mixing. the best part of automation in ableton is that it can be clips that are modular building blocks. you also get a lot of routing and modulation automation generation in addition to an automation clip library. that doesn't make it good for mixing or integrating into protools or logic. at some point you press stems and bounce wav files.
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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by morrison23usa » Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:14 pm

"These drop like Tetris pieces into your tracks" - that looks really cool. Gotta re-check out the newer versions of all the DAWs!

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by StrangeAttraction » Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:23 pm

OK. I see... If you're thinking of sending cv from a DAW, I'd say: try the Expert sleepers plugins in Logic, if you happened to have the hardware or sending some MIDI.
And then, if you feel like you're not gelling with them, then definitely try Ableton.

FYI I tried Bitwig for a while, but it sort of always led me the same path and my tracks sounded the same. Perhaps, it was the way I used the plugins and just modulated the hell out of everything (just because it's so easy in Bitwig).

FYI 2 When Ableton crashes now, it mostly saves everything you had working on, so that's not an issue anymore.
I wish it was a bit more stable with some M4L plugins (perhaps it's my coding to blame, lol!)

Ableton is actually really great for arranging and mixing. Its audio processing, slicing on the grid, warping are quick and amazingly powerful.
I also prefer the clean and flat interface.
Like I mentioned in my previous post, I had used Logic, actually for a very long time before switching to Ableton.
Haven't properly touched Logic in a few years, and when I fired it up last time, I felt lost about where everything was. Couldn't remember any key shortcuts and commands. Using it felt so slow, even zooming into the track and the clips took longer and felt antiquated.

To me, Ableton is super intuitive. I rely on the Session view to come up with ideas, create MIDI loops and LFOs/Envelopes, sequences, etc., send things via ES-9 to modular, then record audio into the Arrangement view from my modular, followed by mixing and mastering. All in Ableton.
The stock plugins are very decent.
Logic has a teeny upper hand in some key plugins: native compressor, eq, distortions, but if you rely more on 3rd party plugins, that's a moot point. It's not like, for example, Ableton's stock compressor is bad - it's just very workhorse-like and transparent. They are decent plugins and lots of commercial music was made pretty much with the native Ableton's plugins, so it's all in the knowhow. Ableton has its own cool bag of effects like Grain Delay and Drum Buss, which Logic doesn't have. The Saturator/waveshaper is also ace.

One thing to consider - Logic is also way way cheaper (and you already have it!) than Ableton Suite (which I'd recommend getting if you're going to dive in - I bought the Standard version, then added M4L and now I'm missing out on a lot of cool plugins like Corpus, Wavetable synth, FM synth, etc. Wish I just got the Suite instead.
Another thing - do you intend to perform live with a computer and modular? You can't really do that with Logic in a sensible way, right?

I certainly would encourage you - similarly to what Lisa and other suggested - to focus on what you know well, if that's working for you right now, and just making music rather than learning another tool, just because of FOMO or you feel like you have to. But if you're curious about it and thinking long term of integrating around CV tools or live performance with Ableton, then perhaps slowly ease your way into a new DAW.

To me it seems like you've peeked behind the fence, and what you saw sparked your curiosity. Don't know if Ableton offers a trial, but if they do, it might be worth taking it for a spin.

BTW, you should try Bitwig as well. Why limit yourself in your research.
Good luck!

yhiitming wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:42 am
I think I will have integration with my eurorack (e.g. sending cv).
Also, I found that Ableton can do many things easily (e.g. using LFO to modulate any parameter, or Logic can do it?) and many interesting "modular type" function.
But I also heard that using Ableton for arranging, mixing and editing is not good, is it true?
Or should I use both of them for different purpose?
Thanks!

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by dubonaire » Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:05 pm

mdoudoroff wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:53 am
When I was choosing (coming from Logic), one of Bitwig’s chief advantages is that when it crashes, it almost never loses any of your work. That was apparently a problem with Ableton; perhaps it has been remedied? Both products are updated pretty aggressively, so it’s difficult to keep track of pros/cons and that’s a moving target, anyways. For example, Bitwig had unique CV support first, but Ableton added a similar feature set shortly thereafter.

Generally, I prefer most aspects of the Bitwig interface, which is why I chose it. Inevitably, I have some gripes.
I've never lost work with Ableton crashes, it's always recovered.

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