Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

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deftinwulf
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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by deftinwulf » Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:34 pm

dubonaire wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:05 pm
I've never lost work with Ableton crashes, it's always recovered.
Same here. I also wonder about the hardware/software combinations of the people who are experiencing so many crashes with Ableton. I started on Ableton with Live 9 and am now a Live 10 Suite owner and it very rarely crashes, on either version. It definitely crashes much, MUCH less often than the Logic 8/Mac platform I used to be on. Yes, Logic 8 is a fossil, and I admit I haven't been lucky enough to try Logic X since my Mac with 8 was stolen and I made the switch to PC (permanently).

Anywho, my main contribution to this thread, if any, is that I initially hated Live due to being so used to the Logic workflow, but I've since grown to (mostly) love it. If you try Live and don't initially gel with it, give it some time and maybe watch a few tutorial vids and see if that helps.

I also agree with the person who said Suite is the way to go. You want M4L, and you want all the native devices Ableton has to offer. Get Suite, and learn to use what it has to offer, and the amount of additional plugins you'll ever need to buy goes way down, IMO.

Not that 3rd party plugins aren't fun. ;) :sb:

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by titaanzink » Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:24 am

If you're already on Logic and after its 10.5 update your default should really be to stay with Logic. Get yourself familiar with its new Live-like features before you part with any money and a new (slopish) learning curve...

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by Polyterative » Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:31 am

I mainly do electronic music and ableton is really suited for that. I enjoy the smart and well designed UI. Plus good stock effects. Plus session view. Plus CV tools.
I own the push2 too
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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by newrun » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:12 am

mdoudoroff wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:55 am
If you’re considering moving to Ableton for CV integration, you should probably at least look at Bitwig, too.
I thought this was a good intro to Bitwig for modular:


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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by mdoudoroff » Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:58 am

I’m constantly repeating—like a broken record—how intensely personal sequencers are, and how one has to look past feature sets and deep into how a given sequencer is designed to work, and then exercise strenuous imagination laced with diligent skepticism in order to determine whether the tool is likely to work for you or not. As an individual.

A DAW is the same situation. Hence, every imaginable opinion and preference is out there, and, as usual, they’re beginning to accumulate here (some better substantiated than others). The main difference, I think, is that many of us will grudgingly use whatever DAW we have on hand to get the bare minimum we need out of it—because some needs are unavoidable—whereas an unloved sequencer is likely to just sit there unused.

For basic purposes, like recording, simple arranging, and saving some tracks, one DAW is much the same as any other. Past that, the devil is in the details. As lisa and several others have pointed out, switching DAWs for most of us is traumatic, expensive and a huge time-suck, because there’s so much to relearn, and it can take a long long time to become genuinely proficient in the new environment. The opportunity cost is extremely high. The grass is always greener on the other side. The number of DAWs out there seems to be proliferating. Just researching them is exhausting. Here be dragons.

It does seem to me that for modular folks, Ableton and Bitwig stand out because of their modular-like support for modulation, and their built-in support for control voltage hardware. There’s a really interesting convergence there, but you have to actually see value in that for your process, or it just doesn’t matter. If—but only if—you’re really interested in recording and working with loops, then you have to factor in the “session view” implementation that various DAWs sport and avoid the ones that don’t have it. If mixing is really important to your process, you’d better look really carefully at that, because you’re probably going to care a lot about even tiny differences in the UI and the available tools. You may even resort to moving between two different DAWs for different stages of your work—zoiks! If you’re really into MPE, that might draw you toward Bitwig, but if MIDI composition is really at the core of what you do, then you might be getting distracted by flashy stuff when you should just stick to Cubase (or whatever). If you’re a player, and tracking multiple takes is your game, then you might be a lot happier in Logic.

Or you might not.

Having gone through the traumatic process of migrating from Logic to Bitwig over a year ago, I’m still not quite in the clear. I like most things about Bitwig—particularly the hardware integration features—but I continue to fight with the arrange view. Basic navigation and editing on the timeline seemed a lot more straightforward and (Mac) consistent in Logic. Zooming and scrolling in Bitwig is just weird. Interacting with the audio clips on the timeline (I don’t make much use of MIDI) seemed natural in Logic and continues to trip me up a bit in Bitwig—I’m still clicking in the wrong places and probably mis-using the cursor modes. (One major reason for some of the peculiarities in the Bitwig interface is that it’s designed to be a touch interface, too, which is nice, but I’m sure is only a benefit to a minescule percentage of their customer base. Another reason is that Bitwig is cross platform, including Linux, so it’s a no-standard UI.) I’ve also had some frustrations clocking my modular from Bitwig, which I’ve documented elsewhere.
Last edited by mdoudoroff on Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by windchill » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:38 am

It depends how long you've been using Logic.
If you've only been using it for a couple of years, and you can afford Ableton, go now before it's too late!!

I've been using Logic for decades so I tend to stick with it.

The problem with Logic though, apart from looking increasingly hideous these days, is that (thanks to a nasty move when Apple purchased EMagic many years ago) it will tie you into using Macs. This used to be OK, though pricey... but Apple have seriously dropped the ball over the last few years and I no longer trust them to serve the pro market with either their hardware of their software (in any field of endeavour).
I recently bought a new Mac, at their current preposterous prices, simply because of my long familiarity with Logic - but I've promised myself this is the last time. When the current Mac dies or becomes unsuitable it will be a PC and Ableton for me (and it will be a painful process I'm sure).

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by mdoudoroff » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:06 am

:lol: The grass is always greener…

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by EATyourGUITAR » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:18 am

This is why I don't recommend logic. If you follow the IT world, you know about the lack of support that made mac OS super insecure in 2020. This is less than %3 of revenue for them so that is why the bean counters pulled all the funding. Not even maintenance fixes happen. Ghost town on your $3000 virus box. Are you connected to the internet? I hope not. There is also the switch to arm CPU. Remember when protools dropped support for powerPC? Remember when the hardware was locked to protools software? That is what you are doing with logic. Consider how many of the mac desktop users use logic. That is a subset of a subset. Apple would be happy to tell you to kick rocks while they invest in lawsuits for antitrust to protect market share for profitable areas. If I were you, I would air gap it and start planning how to sell it all off. I only recommend protools because of the features. I know that logic is probably the only thing that comes close. Sonar has 64 bit summing bus uncompressed but gee whiz would that be a mistake to recommend such a dead software. Cubase comes in 3rd or 4th place. Bitwig and reaper are contenders but I think they fit special use cases more than a general all purpose DAW. Reaper is cheap and good. Bitwig is like Ableton + reaktor in a box.
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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by Stice » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:34 am

lol okay

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by Stice » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:47 am

Perhaps you missed the continued significant Logic development over the last few years. Perhaps you missed 10.5 which for a smaller company might be the core of their entire product. Perhaps you just decided not to like Apple.

At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter - DAWs are tools, and are intensely personal. Whether or not one person *likes* a tool has no bearing on how well it might work for someone else.

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by EATyourGUITAR » Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:01 am

I'm not an apple hater. I have been in the position to advise managers or the total cost of ownership for computer systems. I can support my claims with evidence. I can write reports that make it all the way through purchasing. I never said that logic has no new development. That is a straw man. I do not take the bait. Anyway, I will take leave of this thread indefinitely. I don't want to hog the spotlight or beat a dead horse. I'm sure everyone will wait for hindsight. Consider the dollar value of a ransomware attack on your logic system. Do an internet search for mac os vulnerable. Look at how recent and frequent they are. Is you computer backed up? Do you have two $4000 mac pro's on site? How much would it cost if it happens towards the end of a project the client paid $4000 for tracking and mixing. What about the financial cost to you reputation. Everyone is talking about how easy it is to do xyz daw feature as if that is the only thing involved in running a business.
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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by mdoudoroff » Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:16 am

While I have a litany of serious complaints about Apple—some of which EATyourGUITAR mentions—I won’t be jumping ship any time soon. I think Apple’s security record is actually quite good, overall, and the *nix foundation of MacOS helps a lot. (It also helps if you don’t use pirated software. :foul: ) Apple has made some mistakes, and they’ve been really bad about OS bug management for about a decade, but they still tend to take security pretty seriously and address those problems promptly and carefully. I remember all too well the Wild World of Windows in the 90s and 2000s, when security was Microsoft’s absolute last priority—in fact an accidental virus infection was the last straw for me with Windows. Yes, I know Windows has improved drastically, but I have no need to go back to that terminally reheated OS. I use Linux daily for work, but have zero interest in the Linux “desktop”.

I am actually pretty optimistic about Apple’s ARM transition: I expect it to go mostly transparently, and I expect significant performance and energy use improvements. We shall see. It is absolutely true that some software will never be recompiled for ARM and fall by the wayside over the next 4-5 years, and there may be some surprises therein.

I also agree that no one should use the Mac under the illusion that Apple has their back on pro software or pro hardware (particularly storage systems). Apple no longer has a pro division. You have to be prepared to go with the consumer market-driven flow, and that often means selling off old equipment and buying new equipment. In the end—at least in my experience—it’s not really that different on Windows: I used to blow through PC equipment as fast or faster. As for Apple’s own software, Logic could end-of-life or be “ruined” at any time if Apple’s priorities shift: always keep in mind what happened with Final Cut Pro X (which is pretty cool software, but was launched so badly that Apple drove their market-leading Final Cut Pro user base to Adobe’s also-ran Premiere Pro).

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by morrison23usa » Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:08 pm

dubonaire wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:05 pm
I've never lost work with Ableton crashes, it's always recovered.
I second the motion - long time user ... no lost data that I can recall.

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by 0BSRVR » Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:14 pm

Another Bitwig convert here. It's better and cheaper than Ableton IMO. I also use Logic too. Bitwig grid is amazing for modular integration.

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by DMR » Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:27 pm

Ableton allows you to sell / transfer your license if you no longer use it. The license for Logic is purchased through the Mac App store and is non-transferrable. If a person is starting out and doesn't have any DAW, I think that is a good reason to avoid Logic and try something else first.

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by Kattefjaes » Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:31 pm

windchill wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:38 am
The problem with Logic though, apart from looking increasingly hideous these days, is that (thanks to a nasty move when Apple purchased EMagic many years ago) it will tie you into using Macs.
Yeah, I used to be a Logic user in the 90s. Was less than impressed when Apple bought it to kill the 'doze version.

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by vromr » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:11 pm

Ableton CV Tools are CPU-hungry to the point where I begin to consider Bitwig. How does everyone find Bitwig in a full-on practical workflow?

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by flashheart » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:33 pm

DMR wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:27 pm
Ableton allows you to sell / transfer your license if you no longer use it. The license for Logic is purchased through the Mac App store and is non-transferrable. If a person is starting out and doesn't have any DAW, I think that is a good reason to avoid Logic and try something else first.
The OP describes themselves as a Logic User, so this is hardly relevent to this thread.

I agree with KSS, unless you actually see something specific that is going to make a new DAW a big advantage in working with the modular I'd not change. Logic now has a seesion view, though I'm sure it's not as developed as Ableton's. I don't know how it is these days but my understanding is the Ableton's MIDI tools are limited compared to Logic (of course MIDI is a dirty word around here :)).

To the OP, it seems you're under the impression you should look at Ableton because you're now using more hardware, I don't see this at all. You can always try Live Lite and see how you feel. TBH I don't 'sequence' much on Logic now, mainly use it as a tape recorder/mixer.
I'm not buying a maths though, not my idea of fun...

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by Sinamsis » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:33 pm

I switched over to Ableton from Logic about 7 years ago, after using Logic for 3 years. It was around the time I got into modular. As suggested by others, the audio and MIDI are very flexibly routed; it might be possible in Logic using the environment, but I could never really grasp that. It's very simple and intuitive. I use the DAW mostly for recording, some audio processing and occasionally arrangement. The audio and MIDI routing were critical for me, particularly with an Expert Sleepers ES-3 at the time. Otherwise, I do like that Ableton has the Push, which for the times I actually do use the samplers, drum racks, etc, it makes it feel like more of an instrument. It also provides knobs for controlling all sorts of plugins, and helps with automation. And I also have never lost anything with crashes.

What I do like about Logic is being able to overdub audio and having direct access to all overdubs and being able to splice them together easily. Perhaps Live has this functionality, but I haven't found it yet. I'm far from a power user in either, but I'm proficient enough to get what I need done in either DAW. And I found the transition very easy. Now trying to pick up Pro Tools... not so much.

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Re: Logic Pro vs Ableton for eurorack

Post by Tenderosa » Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:16 pm

You unavoidably get very stockholm syndrome with your DAW & I've been with Ableton for 10 years coming from Pro Tools. Many benefits outlined above (M4L!). One thing though. Audio editing compared to PT or Logic, is beyond terrible if that is important to you, just not designed for it. When I need to do that sort of work I go to Adobe Audition just because I have an Adobe Suite license for other reasons.

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