[SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

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qiemem
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Re: [SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

Post by qiemem » Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:10 pm

crumb dinger wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:14 pm
One vote for S&H here, that's also what I would expect coming from OG stages.
Cool. Definitely leaning towards it. Feels much more natural. Thanks for the input!
crumb dinger wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:14 pm
Just mapping everything out because I feel like I might be misunderstanding:

-looping, non gated, single yellow: Attenuation on slider, offset on pot.

-non-looping, gated, single yellow: Sample and hold with attenuation on slider and slew on pot.

-non-looping yellow in group: Traditional step segment as in original Stages.

Is that right?
Not quite. Slider is always offset. Non-looping = pot slews. Looping = pot attenuates. Gated = S&H.

When I lay it out like that, it feels obvious T&H shouldn't be in there.

Oh, also, there's this: https://github.com/qiemem/eurorack/issues/1...

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Re: [SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

Post by baleen » Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:40 pm

I'd prefer S/H over T/H bc i generally want that value to hold past the trigger falling off

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Re: [SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

Post by qiemem » Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:04 pm

baleen wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:40 pm
I'd prefer S/H over T/H bc i generally want that value to hold past the trigger falling off
Awesome, thanks for the feedback!

Oh, just to be clear, this is attenuating S&H vs T&H. The normal slewing S&H isn't going anywhere.

So, for single yellows, I've got:

- Non-looping, non-gated: slider = offset, pot = slew
- Non-looping, gated: S&H with slider = offset, pot = slew
- Looping, non-gated: slider = offset, pot = attenuate
- Non-looping, gated: S&H with slider = offset, pot = attenuate OR T&H with slider = offset, pot = slew

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Re: [SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

Post by thetechnobear » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:08 am

wow, your doing a great job @qiemem

I have to admit, Im a little confused 'where it is at'... I guess most of this is dev discussion at this point?

are things like the LFHO released? I only see v1.0.0-beta4, which I think is prior to this.

is the bipolar branch the one with changes? should I build it?
or wait for a release?


thanks again for all the great stuff you are doing on this

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Re: [SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

Post by qiemem » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:49 am

thetechnobear wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:08 am
wow, your doing a great job @qiemem

I have to admit, Im a little confused 'where it is at'... I guess most of this is dev discussion at this point?
Yes it is. I should probably try to keep dev discussion more on GH to avoid this kind of confusion. Feature requests and bug reports are always welcome either place however!
thetechnobear wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:08 am
are things like the LFHO released? I only see v1.0.0-beta4, which I think is prior to this.
I'm afraid not. The beta numbers are getting kind of absurdly high, so I really wanted the next release to be 1.0.0... but then I keep adding and tweaking shit. :doh: There's a good bit of new stuff coming up so a lot of testing has been needed.
thetechnobear wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:08 am
is the bipolar branch the one with changes? should I build it?
or wait for a release?
Bipolar branch is the latest one. If you're interested in testing, PM me and I'd be happy to send you the latest build. Stuff is actively changing though and there could definitely be bugs.

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Re: [SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

Post by HelmutGeist » Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:43 am

+1 for attenuated s&h instead of t&h

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Re: [SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

Post by qiemem » Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:32 am

v1.0.0 is out! Here's list of changes since beta4:
  • Add harmonic oscillator frequency range control. Suggested by MW user thetechnobear.
  • Add optional quantization to step and hold segments. Suggested by @jb0000. See #1.
  • Make single looping step segments attenuate (removes T&H). Suggested by MW users Carrousel and SavageMessiah.
  • Make single ngnl ramp segments slew with independent rise and fall. Implementation suggested by @jb0000. See #4.
  • Improve clocked LFO audio rate and reset behavior
  • Improve audio rate cap
  • Make ramp segments track start value
  • Lock pot/slider values when holding button and then be gradually restored. Suggested by @jb0000. See #6.
  • Add cheat sheets to README. Having a quick reference suggested by MW user baleen.
  • Expand range of fast and slow clocked LFOs for with musically useful values (1/16 and 1/32 for slow; 12 and 16 for fast).
  • Fix random segments crashing the module when switching to normal segment generator mode
  • Fix Stages' LFO range messing up harmonic oscillator control.

Thanks to everyone for their feedback and ideas! Big thanks to jay (jb0000 on GH) for helping test and develop ideas!
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Re: [SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

Post by Silentnotes » Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:02 am

Thank you! I will test it ASAP. Where can I find the README file?

edit: found it! thanks.

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Re: [SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

Post by crumb dinger » Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:45 am

Congrats on 1.0.0! Gonna take this for a spin today. Quantization is a major treat.

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Re: [SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

Post by mother misty » Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:02 pm

Congrats!
I’m very curious to test all the new features! :goo:
I know my Stages pretty well and never really needed a manual to patch things up, but I feel with all these new features some kind of Illustrated patch book (similar to the Maths one) might be interesting to have.
I know my way around in graphic programs so I’m thinking of making one, unless there already is something similar or somebody working on it?

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Re: [SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

Post by gelabs » Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:21 pm

Woah, awesome ! :tu:
I agree that an illustrated patch book would be really useful.
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Re: [SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

Post by pelang » Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:28 pm

yes, a new manual would be excellent. so many great new functions. Thanks qiemem !

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Re: [SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

Post by qiemem » Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:06 pm

Thanks to everyone for the interest! I did make a reference sheet for the controls, but it's not at all visual and is admittedly overwhelming.
Silentnotes wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:02 am
Thank you! I will test it ASAP. Where can I find the README file?

edit: found it! thanks.
Glad you found it! For others, README is here: https://github.com/qiemem/eurorack/tree/bipolar/stages
mother misty wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:02 pm
Congrats!
I’m very curious to test all the new features! :goo:
I know my Stages pretty well and never really needed a manual to patch things up, but I feel with all these new features some kind of Illustrated patch book (similar to the Maths one) might be interesting to have.
I know my way around in graphic programs so I’m thinking of making one, unless there already is something similar or somebody working on it?
:yay: That would be amazing! I don't know of anyone working on one and I don't personally have the skill (though happy to take suggestions on improvements to the readme). You might check out the synthmodes Stages reference (which is open source) as a place to get started. The Illustrator file for the interface is also available here: https://github.com/pichenettes/eurorack ... ges_v70.ai

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Re: [SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

Post by Jay » Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:38 pm

I would love to collaborate on a illustrated Patchbook. PM me if interested!

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Re: [SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

Post by mother misty » Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:48 am

qiemem wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:06 pm
:yay: That would be amazing! I don't know of anyone working on one and I don't personally have the skill (though happy to take suggestions on improvements to the readme). You might check out the synthmodes Stages reference (which is open source) as a place to get started. The Illustrator file for the interface is also available here: https://github.com/pichenettes/eurorack ... ges_v70.ai
Cool, thanks for the links!
Jay wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:38 pm
I would love to collaborate on a illustrated Patchbook. PM me if interested!
Great! Send you a PM.

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Re: [SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

Post by baleen » Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:17 pm

I'd also be happy to lend a hand to a manual.

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Re: [SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

Post by qiemem » Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:10 pm

You guys are the best. :yay:

Let me know if there's any info, clarifications, whatever that would help!

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Re: [SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

Post by Squallaz » Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:22 am

Guys, it would be awesome to have a video explaining this firmware. It looks amazing but quite complex.

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Re: [SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

Post by Jay » Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:22 am

Squallaz wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:22 am
Guys, it would be awesome to have a video explaining this firmware. It looks amazing but quite complex.
I have thought about making tutorial videos but I need to find the time for that first :lol:

While experimenting with clocking the Turing Machine (Red/Green Mode) at audio rate this little track formed itself:


Patchnotes:
Plaits on pulse wave multed 6x into 6 Red/Green Segments Gate Inputs (Bipolar activated)
3 of the Segments are submixed for left and 3 for right audio. The Signal is further processed in a Deluge, which adds a bit of Reverb and the sidechaining effect in the middle of the track.

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Re: [SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

Post by crumb dinger » Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:17 pm

This patch is clever! Great use of the audio rate clocking. I recently started outlining a video on this thing but I'll commend whoever gets around to it. My script is already more than a page long, heavily abbreviated, and I haven't even gotten through the advanced segment generator!

If I could make one more suggestion it would be to give this fw a particular name. Seems like it's mature and fully featured enough to warrant some kind of identity, especially now that 1.0 has been released. Thus far I've been calling it a mix of bi-polar/multi-mode/alt-firmware stages when spreading the word around. The potential for confusion with its various predecessors is high. I'd love to promote it with more certainty!

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Re: [SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

Post by Hanz » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:39 pm

Very happy with all the new features in this alternative firmware! Thank you! :sb:

Question - I haven't really studied the source code yet, but how hard would it be to add to / modify the harmonic oscillator mode to generate subharmonics?
This to make it approximate the Trautonium, like the Doepfer A-113 (or, to a lesser degree, the Moog Subharmonicon...)
Either by switching mode entirely (replacing the multipliers with fractions from 1 to 8) or by expanding the pot range (with 1 in the middle, anti-clockwise for subharmonics, clockwise for harmonics).
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Re: [SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

Post by qiemem » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:59 pm

crumb dinger wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:17 pm
This patch is clever! Great use of the audio rate clocking. I recently started outlining a video on this thing but I'll commend whoever gets around to it. My script is already more than a page long, heavily abbreviated, and I haven't even gotten through the advanced segment generator!
Wow, that's awesome! I had been thinking of making a video as well, but won't get around to it anytime soon. I certainly don't have any kind of a script yet anyway. If you want to, go for it! PM me if you want any input on the script or anything.
crumb dinger wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:17 pm
If I could make one more suggestion it would be to give this fw a particular name. Seems like it's mature and fully featured enough to warrant some kind of identity, especially now that 1.0 has been released. Thus far I've been calling it a mix of bi-polar/multi-mode/alt-firmware stages when spreading the word around. The potential for confusion with its various predecessors is high. I'd love to promote it with more certainty!
Thanks for letting people know about it! I know it needs a name; just haven't settled on anything yet :despair:

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Re: [SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

Post by qiemem » Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:24 pm

Hanz wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:39 pm
Very happy with all the new features in this alternative firmware! Thank you! :sb:

Question - I haven't really studied the source code yet, but how hard would it be to add to / modify the harmonic oscillator mode to generate subharmonics?
This to make it approximate the Trautonium, like the Doepfer A-113 (or, to a lesser degree, the Moog Subharmonicon...)
Either by switching mode entirely (replacing the multipliers with fractions from 1 to 8) or by expanding the pot range (with 1 in the middle, anti-clockwise for subharmonics, clockwise for harmonics).
Glad you're enjoying it!

So, there's a couple ways of doing subharmonics already, but I had been thinking of expanding harmonic oscillator range already, maybe in the same way as clocked LFO range (on a per-segment basis with button+pot/slider for modes 5/6). What divisions would make sense?

Current ways of getting subharmonics:
  • You can do Maths style subharmonics with a single, non-looping, gated green segment set to ignore retriggers (hold button, wiggle knob so it blinks red every second). This also works with longer groups as well, but the highest frequency decreases with each segment you add (minimum segment duration is ~1ms IIRC).
  • Gated LFOs make great subharmonic oscillators. One of my personal favorite additions is that the new firmware can handle audio-rate clocks much better than the old one (adapted from Marbles and Tides; it switches PLL algorithms at 64hz). I regularly use those for subharmonics. The default range lets you get 1/2, 1/3, and 1/4. Low range expands this further. See https://github.com/qiemem/eurorack/blob ... -generator
  • The harmonic oscillator goes down to 1/2 and 1/4 already. See https://github.com/qiemem/eurorack/blob ... es.cc#L211

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Re: [SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

Post by Hanz » Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:57 pm

Thanks!
I had already been experimenting with alternative ways of getting subharmonics, for example the gated LFO feature that you mentioned. However it seems I was getting a lot of aliasing when bringing these into audio range. With the Harmonic oscillator clearly already running in audio range, I was thinking of avoiding that issue altogether. Best of all, easy access to multiple channels of undertones next to the 'master' would get us into Trautonium territory very quickly - and beyond (with the capability to use different waveforms).

The interesting thing about the subharmonic series is the musical options offered by the undertone series - quite different to the overtone series which are obtained through multiplication. Where overtones are on the major scale, undertones are actually closer to the minor scale, but not all align exactly to traditional chromatic notes.
In the past, subharmonics were used on the Trautonium electronic instrument (as performed by Oskar Sala - for example on his album Subharmonische Mixturen - his 'Mixtur Trautonium' apparently uses features such as formant filters, frequency shifters and delays... Mutable Rings 'Disastrous Peace' and Warps 'Parasites' to the rescue! ;))



For example, the Doepfer A-113 (http://www.doepfer.de/a113.htm) supposedly faithfully replicates the subharmonic generator of the Trautonium - offering 4 separate channels with division values of 1 to 24.
Interesting that you highlight the existing 1/2 and 1/4 dividers in Harmonic oscillator mode, since I did notice these as well. Still, the more interesting harmonic values lie beyond pure sub-octaves, for example the more interesting divisions 3, 5, 6 and 7. Please refer to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undertone_series - probably more accurate than I can describe here.

In any case, casually looking at the source code lines you indicated... simply replacing the dividers would clearly be a blunt hack.
Although I'm not sure if that array ouroboros_ratios could simply be extended, but in that case going all the way from 1/8 (fully anticlockwise) to 1 (noon) to 8 (fully clockwise) would probably make most sense, at least to start off with... (probably 24 or 32 would be best, but that might easily become unpractical when laid out across a single knob...)
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Re: [SPLIT] Alternative Firmware(s) for Mutable Instruments Stages

Post by qiemem » Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:55 pm

Hanz wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:57 pm
I had already been experimenting with alternative ways of getting subharmonics, for example the gated LFO feature that you mentioned. However I was getting quite a bit of aliasing when bringing these up to audio range.
Uh oh. I just tried this again, and it seems a bug creeped in somewhere. I'm hearing a rapid clicking while doing this now. That definitely should not be there. Thanks for pointing me to this!

Edit: Actually, I was seeing something different. See this issue for details if curious, though that issue does make using more than three audio-rate clocked LFOs impossible unfortunately (until I fix it that is).

Are you seeing more aliasing on clocked LFOs than non-clocked? If so, what waveform are you using as your "clock" source? Descending ramps and squares definitely work best; Stages seems to have trouble consistently detecting the rising edge on sine waves. About what frequency were you running it at?

Note that there will be aliasing on both clocked and non-clocked LFOs if the pot goes too far in either direction. Unfortunately, any waveform with too hard of an edge does indeed alias. But keeping it between 9:00 and 3:00 usually works okay for me.
Hanz wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:57 pm
In any case, casually looking at the source code lines you indicated... simply replacing the dividers would clearly be a blunt hack.
Although I'm not sure if that array ouroboros_ratios could simply be extended, but in that case going all the way from 1/8 (fully anticlockwise) to 1 (noon) to 8 (fully clockwise) would probably make most sense (to start off with...)
Thanks for the nice explanation of undertones! Really cool to hear that piece with the Trautonium as well.

I don't want to simply expand the range of the pots since I want the original behavior to be available. I'll probably use the same controls that LFOs use to change range. Sounds like 1...8 should be good.

BTW, in case you haven't tried it yet, mode 6 swaps pots and sliders in harmonic oscillator mode, also giving you CV control over the selected harmonic.

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